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The Otters Next Victim

Hold on... if anyone thinks that our rivers are actually going to improve, I'd like to hear why, as in reality the issues affecting them are very likely to get worse. When it comes to conserving rivers, anglers are often at the spearhead of such campaigns and we shouldn't underestimate the importance of this. Regarding our rivers as fisheries, we can work to protect and improve them or otherwise we can ignore the situation. If we anglers cannot raise the issue of reintroduced otters (in various fisheries) seemingly being the final nail in the coffin, then who will?

Some may like shouting on here for culls. While this isn't going to legally happen, it doesn't mean that anglers should not ring the alarm bells where otter predation becomes a serious threat to their fisheries. It's all very well saying they will be happy to fish for less barbel, while surrounded by nature's blessings, but the reality of the situation is that when the stocks in those fisheries have all been eaten, the chances are those fisheries will fold up.... at which point the 'nature lovers' will have nowhere to fish!

I noticed in a BBC Springwatch link I put on here earlier, that Huge Miles wasn't scared of pointing out that the damaged tails of barbel they were filming on the Wensum was caused by otter attacks. We can agree to disagree about the level of the otter 'problem' but where people are responsibly working to highlight it, we should offer them at least a little support.
 
There appears to be a school of thought on here that if you dare to say barbel are your favourite wild creature you automatically hate otters, have no interest in anything except a barbel on the end of your line and couldn't care less if rivers were open sewers as long as "muddy holes" contained barbel to catch. Rhys, you are guilty of over exaggerating what I said, I never said I wanted to catch barbel at all costs, I merely said I go fishing to catch barbel, not to look at nature. As I often fish at night , looking at nature would be a bit difficult. I do not want see otters extinct, I do not want to fish muddy holes for barbel or anything else. What I do want to do is be able to state that I go barbel fishing to catch barbel(on a barbel forum by the way!) without implications of my general attitude to angling and it's image being presumed by others. And quite how is a barbel angler saying he would rather catch barbel than watch otters turning the public against us?
 
Chris, your post was the most sensible one on the thread so far mate, congratulations:)
buried heads in the sand but are their eyes open?....j.w
 
Rhys Perry said:
When have I ever said that I attach no importance to the welfare of barbel?
The welfare of barbel is of no more or less importance than that of otters. But as they are doing pretty well, in the vast majority of rivers in which they inhabit across the country, where as otters are not, I'd say their welfare is, at this time, not an issue.
As I am trying to point out, I personally believe that the whole eco system of a river, is of more importance than that of just the barbel population, otters included. Where as it would appear that most are only bothered about the fish they like to catch and to hell with anything else, yet try and make out they're concerned with the whole eco system, so as not to appear this way. Although no one is likely to admit it, I'm damn sure there are many fishermen who would be more than happy to see otters extinct in this country!
I love fishing for barbel, I love fishing for any fish really, but I also love nature and the feeling of being immersed it when I am fishing.
I repeat, if all you care about is catching fish, go fish over stocked commercials.
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The point is Rhys that you may well have the 'Whole eco system' of the river at heart, and understand the importance of this...I think very few on here would argue against the point you are making there. And if it so happens that you are much more interested in watching mayflies flying and grasshoppers hopping than catching fish some of the time, then power to you, you are not alone there either.

The utterly frustrating point for me is the refusal by some members to accept, no matter what is said, that those who are concerned about the fate of their favourite fish may also be just as aware as them that the wellbeing of the whole eco system is a basic and vital requirement. Making rash statements such as (your words) "It would appear that most are only bothered about the fish they like to catch and to hell with anything else, yet try and make out they're concerned with the whole eco system, so as not to appear this way" is just a teensy weensy bit paranoid, don't you think?

There are a few extremists, I grant you...but surely that is true of every walk of life? I will lay you good odds that the vast majority of the people who have voiced their anger at the ill timed reintroduction of otters are as concerned as you about the need for a good, ballanced ecology. Their whole point is that there isn't a healthy ecosystem at the moment, far from it, which makes it a madness to reintroduce otters at this time...establishing a healthy environment first would have made a whole lot more sense wouldn't it :rolleyes:

Last point, concerning your belief that it is 'natural' for otters to be where they now are, in such numbers. It has been stated recently that otters were almost wiped out by 'Agricultural chemical run-off', that this rendered the otters sterile. It was then stated that the chemicals involved were banned long ago, which meant that it was now fine to reintroduce otters into the wild. If that is so, if that was all that was wrong in the world of otters...why did they need 'reintroduction' at all? Why did the otters in the various areas where they had survived not spread out into the now 'safe' areas?
As has been pointed out, the mink did a pretty fair job of doing just that...so if the environment IS suitable for otters at the moment...what stopped them? Surely that would have been 'natural'....wouldn't it:rolleyes:

Cheers, Dave.
 
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yep david, it's balance, to many Eco self centred bad environmental engineering otter cuddly sandal wearing, anti angling types have far to much say, thanks to a anglers poll tax called the rod licence.
there is nothing wrong with controlled otter populations, but this clearly hasn't taken place, otters at any cost!!
 
The Chairman on Wednesday

Concrete everything over and leave only Designated Barbel Drains, I say! Kill everything and everybody (or at least put them out of a job or cut their benefits, whichever is cheapest) that disagrees with Us, whilst we're at it, too!

Simple really, for swivel-eyed simpletons.


As ever,

B.B.
 
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Paranoid!? Over exaggerating!? To read some posts you'd think it is the barbel that is endangered! Barbel, as a whole, are thriving, and on rivers that also contain otters. Some rivers fish populations have been devastated by overzealous otter re-introduction, I agree, and I also agree, believe it or not, that this needs to be addressed. But the outpouring of hatred and paranoia towards otters is way over the top.
Regarding your point Dave about mink thriving, otters not, mink are an alien species, in their natural environment their numbers are controlled naturally. Over here, free from natural predators and with an abundance of food, they eat pretty much anything that moves, and with a very bold attitude(anyone who's ever been confronted by one can testify to that!), of course they are going to spread, just as many other alien species do. Otters on the other hand eat mainly fish and crayfish, are large shy animals, that are less likely to move away from waterways. In a heavily built up country such as ours, there is a distinct lack or natural 'corridors' for them to move between habitats, hence them needing a helping hand. Your not likely to see a family of otters take a stroll through the town, to get to another river. Besides, in large rural areas they have been spreading, slowly, provided they avoid being shot by disgruntled fishermen!
Its not a question of being a 'sandal wearing eco warrior' or being a nature lover/spotter, whatever, its about having respect and an appreciation for the natural environment, in which we all take pleasure fishing in.
Now if you'll excuse me I'm off otter watching and I might just take my fishing rods with me!:)
 
Rhys Perry said:
. But the outpouring of hatred and paranoia towards otters is way over the top.

Maybe you need to read your own posts Rhys about going way over the top.

"Or perhaps you'd like to see our rivers totally devoid of all life except barbel? Just imagine that, no predators killing them, no trees or plants for them to hide from, or for you to get snagged in. Perfectly cut out pegs, to fit your deluxe recliner chair in, and a river stuffed full of specimen barbel. Why you wouldn't need to try at all!"
Rhys Perry said:
.


What gave you the right to assume I think this way merely because I don't prefer otters to barbel? I commented on a surprising lack of support for the barbel on a barbel fishing website. I did not accuse you of wanting to feed barbel to otters or of offering up the demise of the barbel as a sacrificial offering to the much vaunted "non-angling public" so don't make presumptions about me. And the barbel is not thriving everywhere. Don't take it for granted that I am blaming otters for this, but it's a fact
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Paul Boote said:
The Chairman on Wednesday

Concrete everything over and leave only Designated Barbel Drains, I say! Kill everything and everybody (or at least put them out of a job or cut their benefits, whichever is cheapest) that disagrees with Us, whilst we're at it, too!

Simple really, for swivel-eyed simpletons.


As ever,

B.B.
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Paul,

Apart from the 'Designated Barbel Drains' , what you describe is disturbingly close to the state of affairs that already exists in this country....thanks in the main to people who persist in living with their heads stuck in the sand.

Perhaps those 'simpletons' who keep their eyes open and swivelling are actually more aware of the true state of affairs than you now seem to be.

Cheers, Dave.
 
David Gauntlett said:
Paul,

Apart from the 'Designated Barbel Drains' , what you describe is disturbingly close to the state of affairs that already exists in this country....thanks in the main to people who persist in living with their heads stuck in the sand.

Perhaps those 'simpletons' who keep their eyes open and swivelling are actually more aware of the true state of affairs than you now seem to be.Cheers, Dave.
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And what do the enlightened ones do, hmm nothing if they're anglers..... In your words anglers are apathetic, in mine, probably better off not knowing if not going to use!

Surely the sign of a "simpleton", one who knows but fails to act on the facts, or not??

Answer if you must but seeing as this debate really is going nowhere, I doubt I'll respond.
Off to bury my head in the sand.:p:D:D
 
Rhys Perry said:
Paranoid!? Over exaggerating!? To read some posts you'd think it is the barbel that is endangered! Barbel, as a whole, are thriving, and on rivers that also contain otters. Some rivers fish populations have been devastated by overzealous otter re-introduction, I agree, and I also agree, believe it or not, that this needs to be addressed. But the outpouring of hatred and paranoia towards otters is way over the top.
Regarding your point Dave about mink thriving, otters not, mink are an alien species, in their natural environment their numbers are controlled naturally. Over here, free from natural predators and with an abundance of food, they eat pretty much anything that moves, and with a very bold attitude(anyone who's ever been confronted by one can testify to that!), of course they are going to spread, just as many other alien species do. Otters on the other hand eat mainly fish and crayfish, are large shy animals, that are less likely to move away from waterways. In a heavily built up country such as ours, there is a distinct lack or natural 'corridors' for them to move between habitats, hence them needing a helping hand. Your not likely to see a family of otters take a stroll through the town, to get to another river. Besides, in large rural areas they have been spreading, slowly, provided they avoid being shot by disgruntled fishermen!
Its not a question of being a 'sandal wearing eco warrior' or being a nature lover/spotter, whatever, its about having respect and an appreciation for the natural environment, in which we all take pleasure fishing in.
Now if you'll excuse me I'm off otter watching and I might just take my fishing rods with me!:)
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Do you really believe all you have just written Rhys?

"To read some posts you'd think it is the barbel that is endangered!"

That is the whole point Rhys...on many waterways barbel (along with most other species of fish and wild life) ARE endangered, and unless we address ALL the issues which are turning our waterways into ecological time bombs, the apparently healthy rivers that still manage to support good stocks of barbel etc., will be pushed over the edge and join the rest. To say that "On the whole barbel are thriving" is optimism in the extreme.

"Mink are an alien species, in their natural environment their numbers are controlled naturally"

"Over here, free from natural predators"

"Otters on the other hand eat mainly fish and crayfish, are large shy animals"

Rhys...have you any idea what happens when a mink meats a dog otter? The otters apparent 'shyness' mysteriously disappears, and the mink discovers the true meaning of the term 'A natural predator' :D

"Few natural corridors"

What..not even the ones the mink used to populate new areas? When was the last time you saw a family of mink "Strolling through the town town, to get to another river"?

"Its about having respect and an appreciation for the natural environment"

I had hoped that you realised by now that you are far from alone in that respect Rhys...but...whatever.

Cheers, Dave.
 
Colin Gordon said:
And what do the enlightened ones do, hmm nothing if they're anglers..... In your words anglers are apathetic, in mine, probably better off not knowing if not going to use!

Surely the sign of a "simpleton", one who knows but fails to act on the facts, or not??

Answer if you must but seeing as this debate really is going nowhere, I doubt I'll respond.
Off to bury my head in the sand.:p:D:D
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Couldn't think of a better place for it Colin :D:D:D

Seriously though, there are quite a few 'anglers' out there, the 'Enlightened ones' if you like, that do a huge amount of work in the battle against the ecological vandalism this world is falling prey to . They spend countless unpaid hours battering their heads against the wall that is built from the bricks of govenment stupidity, fixed together by the cement that is the apathy of the majority.

What is so sad about this forum in particular is that as soon as any individual, or member of one of the various groups of people who are in fact fighting our battles for us, asks for a little help...they are ripped apart by certain members.

We are of course all entitled to our own opinions....it just that for reasons I cannot for the life of me fathom, certain members appear to feel duty bound to attack on sight anyone and anything that remotely resembles an attempt to at least try to do battle with the ills confronting our hobby.

Hey ho...that's life I guess.

Cheers, Dave.
 
*sigh* this could potentially go on forever!

Dave, are you just nit picking for the sake of it, or do you genuinely not understand how an invasive species can wreak havoc? Granted my explanation was pretty poor, but its not rocket science to understand why mink have spread. Anyway, this article is very interesting:
http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/mink-numbers-drop-as-the-otter-bites-back-584630.html

Barbel are not endangered, in fact they're not even classed as vulnerable. Ok, so there are some rivers where their numbers have declined, for many reasons, and I have never suggested that this shouldn't be addressed, and to be fair it is being addressed. But there are many rivers where barbel are thriving, even in rivers that previously never contained barbel, so to suggest they are 'on the whole' vulnerable, is nonsense. Just look at rivers such as the Trent and Thames, it wasn't that long ago they were considered devoid of any life.
Otters on the other hand are classed as endangered, which logically leads to their welfare as being of more importance, at this pesent time, than that of barbel.
But of course otters are an easy target, killing our fish? Simple, just shoot them all to extinction, problem solved. A classic human answer, that has been used time and time again. Not so easy getting rid of farmers or factories, that together cause for more damage than any furry little critter.
 
Rhys Perry said:
*sigh* this could potentially go on forever!

Dave, are you just nit picking for the sake of it, or do you genuinely not understand how an invasive species can wreak havoc? Granted my explanation was pretty poor, but its not rocket science to understand why mink have spread. Anyway, this article is very interesting:
http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/mink-numbers-drop-as-the-otter-bites-back-584630.html

Barbel are not endangered, in fact they're not even classed as vulnerable. Ok, so there are some rivers where their numbers have declined, for many reasons, and I have never suggested that this shouldn't be addressed, and to be fair it is being addressed. But there are many rivers where barbel are thriving, even in rivers that previously never contained barbel, so to suggest they are 'on the whole' vulnerable, is nonsense. Just look at rivers such as the Trent and Thames, it wasn't that long ago they were considered devoid of any life.
Otters on the other hand are classed as endangered, which logically leads to their welfare as being of more importance, at this pesent time, than that of barbel.
But of course otters are an easy target, killing our fish? Simple, just shoot them all to extinction, problem solved. A classic human answer, that has been used time and time again. Not so easy getting rid of farmers or factories, that together cause for more damage than any furry little critter.
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As you say Rhys, this could indeed go on forever.

You tell me that otters are gentle , shy creatures, unlike the rabid mink. I point out that otters in fact are quite a ruthless, powerful predator that will happily kill mink. You response to that is to accuse me of nit picking, then include a link which supports exactly what I was saying....there's not a lot I can say to that Rhys :eek:

I explain to you over and over untill I am blue in the face that I do NOT support ANY call for the extermination of mink, I NEVER have and I NEVER will. Such a thing will never happen, nor should it, and to pointlessly clamour for it would be counter productive in the extreme. I also explain over and over that the REAL problems that need adressing are pollution, abstraction, di da, di da, di da.

Your reply to that is to repeat YET AGAIN your previous puzzeling insinuations that I wish to 'shoot them all to extinction', because they are easy targets compared to 'factories and farmers' who are the true villains.

As I say, I must agree with you that so long as you are going to persist in accusing me of things which are not true, nor ever have been, things which I point out to you are not true every time you wrongly accuse me of them.....then yes, this is indeed likely to go on for a LONG time :rolleyes:

As for the Thames not previously holding barbel, and not long ago considered devoid of life :eek:...Are you SERI.....Noooooo, I am not even going to bother going there, I would just be accused of 'nit picking' again :D

Cheers, Dave.
 
Don't sound so surprised Dave. I had the temerity to point out this is a barbel, not an otter forum and apparently I want to see our rivers devoid of all non-barbel life forms, including plants, all predators eradicated and a neatly cut out swim for my "de-lux recliner chair" where I can catch specimen barbel with no effort at all. This character analysis has all come from the fact that I admit to prefering barbel to otters. I wonder if some people on here have been trained at Quantico?
 
David Gauntlett said:
As you say Rhys, this could indeed go on forever.

You tell me that otters are gentle , shy creatures, unlike the rabid mink. I point out that otters in fact are quite a ruthless, powerful predator that will happily kill mink. You response to that is to accuse me of nit picking, then include a link which supports exactly what I was saying....there's not a lot I can say to that Rhys :eek:

I explain to you over and over untill I am blue in the face that I do NOT support ANY call for the extermination of mink, I NEVER have and I NEVER will. Such a thing will never happen, nor should it, and to pointlessly clamour for it would be counter productive in the extreme. I also explain over and over that the REAL problems that need adressing are pollution, abstraction, di da, di da, di da.

Your reply to that is to repeat YET AGAIN your previous puzzeling insinuations that I wish to 'shoot them all to extinction', because they are easy targets compared to 'factories and farmers' who are the true villains.

As I say, I must agree with you that so long as you are going to persist in accusing me of things which are not true, nor ever have been, things which I point out to you are not true every time you wrongly accuse me of them.....then yes, this is indeed likely to go on for a LONG time :rolleyes:

As for the Thames not previously holding barbel, and not long ago considered devoid of life :eek:...Are you SERI.....Noooooo, I am not even going to bother going there, I would just be accused of 'nit picking' again :D

Cheers, Dave.
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It can indeed be hard work David, but reading between the lines, I think you put the word mink in your last post where you meant to say otters?
 
Alex Gowney said:
Don't sound so surprised Dave. I had the temerity to point out this is a barbel, not an otter forum and apparently I want to see our rivers devoid of all non-barbel life forms, including plants, all predators eradicated and a neatly cut out swim for my "de-lux recliner chair" where I can catch specimen barbel with no effort at all. This character analysis has all come from the fact that I admit to prefering barbel to otters. I wonder if some people on here have been trained at Quantico?
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I wouldn't mind Alex, but I have not once called for/recommended calling for an otter cull/extermination, nor would I ever...it would be madness. Yet he insists on accusing me of just that in every post, and I refute it in all of my replies, and explain why. However, not wishing to let facts get in his way, he immediately comes back with the same tired accusation in his next post...and then accuses me of 'nit picking' and prolonging the thing when I defend myself :D

Death, where is thy sting :D:D:D

Cheers, Dave :D
 
Chris Turnbull said:
It can indeed be hard work David, but reading between the lines, I think you put the word mink in your last post where you meant to say otters?
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Bang on Chris :eek:....an indication of how tired and frustrated I was after reading what seemed at least to be the same post with the same tired and baseless accusations over and over again :rolleyes:

Cheers, Dave.
 
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