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The Otters Next Victim

David G,

Re-write that post without the sarcasm and condescension and I would probably say that you have summed up my thoughts on the issue very accurately.

R.
 
Hmmm...

I think an awful lot of anglers hide behind the 'ecology of the river' argument, when slating otters, when all they're really concerned about are their falling catch rates, having gotten fat on easy barbel fishing.
This in no better highlighted than by the so called 'predatory action group' with their pearler of a statement 'to a lesser extent the mink'.
Mink, together with others such as cormorants, signal crayfish, zebra muscles and himalayan balsam, cause far more ecological damage to river systems than the native otter, yet, with the possible exception of cormorants, hardly get a mention. Why? Because none of those mentioned eat big barbel. In fact I've even seen it mentioned by some that balsam makes their fish pictures prettier and signals help fish that eat them grow bigger! And how anyone even has the nerve to complain about otters killing barbel in rivers where barbel were introduced, is beyond belief.
Granted, the reintroduction of otters into territories already populated by them is naive and pointless, and yes, there are far bigger problems effecting rivers which need addressing, to help support a healthy otter and fish population. But to stop the re-population of an endangered native animal, on the grounds of it effecting fishing, just doesn't wash with me. To rank a simple, largely pointless, human pleasure of catching fish and putting them back again, over maintaining a healthy population of a threatened species, is just wrong.
I'm happy to see otters on the rivers and if it means my fishing becomes harder as a result, so be it. As Chris Yates once said, its not just about catching fish, its about being there. If catch rates is all your concerned about, go fish those pasty carp puddles.
 
Colin,

The first part, if you don't like my "inane drivel", don't read it, simple really?

That really wasn't worth the effort, was it?

To the second part, some harsh retorts to something that's not "even the major problem";

Of course you will get comments like those you have listed in a situation like this, but it is a bit much to label them extremist over e few ribald jibes like that....some people are threatening similar treatment or worse for the English football team and the manager, It's called humour :rolleyes: However, I agree that in the case of otters, there are rumours that this has happened. I have no idea whether it is true or not, but I would not really be surprised if someone who has seen their livelihood literally being eaten has decided to take the law into their own hands...wrong, but understandable.

Also, why so many otter threads if they're not even perceived as "the major problem".

There are an awful lot of people out there fighting hard against pollution and all the other ills, always has been, always will be. When there is an obvious, very visible fish kill caused by pollution, there are threads on forums, newspaper articles and frequently it even makes the TV news. Obviously, when you have a forum dedicated almost entirely to one particular species of fish, and that species is threatened by yet another problem in a whole line of threats to it's wellbeing, people are going to get angry and talk about it...a lot! I think that is quite reasonable?

To the rest of your post, bleet away BUT who is listening and to what end?
(I could suggest you're whinging to an audience that will merely agree but basically to no avail)
Personally I'd rather try to deal with the underlying problems and achieve some success, good luck on your crusade cos you're sure going to need it!

Seems a bit ass about face taking on a lesser problem that offers a lesser chance of success rather than a greater threat which offers better odds on getting a result, prudence is certainly not your strong point then??!![/QUOTE]

Colin,

There you go again Colin!...."good luck on your crusade cos you're sure going to need it"

What crusade IS that? After all I have said, it STILL seems you are convinced that I am on a crusade to have otters exterminated...NOT TRUE COLIN...I really am not getting through to you, am I?

What I see as 'ASS about face' Colin is the fact that anglers always fall into two catagories...the totally apathetic majority, who can not be bothered with anything much, and the minority such as you and I who spend our time fighting each other, rather than dealing with the issues which are destroying our sport. Makes it really easy going, for the people causing our problems, doesnt it :rolleyes:

Truce Colin :D

Cheers, Dave.
 
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Pete Marshall said:
Whilst the mink farmers who provided inadequate fencing and then released their mink, rather than killing them when stupid anti fur campaigners caused a decline in the market, may well have been morons, I don't think they were "well meaning"...or do you believe the urban myth that "animal rights" activits (certainly morons but certainly not well meaning), released all these creatures?
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I want to know why the mink thrived at a time when all the otters were dying out because of , "Agri chemical run off".


Pete Marshall
Senior Member

Boring facts, rather than ill informed nonsense and therefore sure to be ignored.
Otters nearly, note nearly as there were always some otters around in the UK in areas with low agricultural pollution such as most of the highlands of Scotland and certain rivers such as the Teme which is one of the reasons the Teme is a SSSI, died out because of agi chemical run off causing infertility (long since banned).
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Pete Marshall said:
Whilst the mink farmers who provided inadequate fencing and then released their mink, rather than killing them when stupid anti fur campaigners caused a decline in the market, may well have been morons, I don't think they were "well meaning"...or do you believe the urban myth that "animal rights" activits (certainly morons but certainly not well meaning), released all these creatures?
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Pete,

Not having been there, as you so obviously were, I really couldn't say either way. I Do know that they caused, and are still causing havoc to our native wildlife...and I think that is the important issue here, don't you?

Cheers, Dave.
 
Paul Boote said:
But then the world (and particularly England) runs on such "I heard that the X, Ys and Zs did it" prejudice. Only thing now that makes the once-great, now-broken English feel good. Problem is is that the discontent is systemic, and has to be neutralized with ever bigger myths, lies and scapegoats. Now, if you will excuse me, I'm off to find a new one for the populace's ire and displeasure.
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Paul,

I am not sure why you would wish to find something to cause further 'ire and disleasure to the populace', but if you find that pleasureable, don't let me stand in your way old chap :D

Might I add that what made the English 'once great' was the fact that they used to stand up and fight for their rights...what makes them 'now broken' is the fact that they stopped doing that.

Cheers, Dave.
 
Paul Boote said:
Whatever he is, a man who writes / says "spouting inane drivel" is saying much about himself.
Click to expand...

I wish I could come up with lines like that Paul. You have the gift of being able to write things in such a way as to make them sound like they actually mean something.

Cheers, Dave.
 
Robin Bowes said:
David G,

Re-write that post without the sarcasm and condescension and I would probably say that you have summed up my thoughts on the issue very accurately.

R.
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree with you more Robin, I have let my anger take over, and that has harmed my own arguement. I do apologise for any offence caused to people such as yourself. It is an age thing Robin...I should not react the way I did.

Cheers, Dave.
 
David Gauntlett said:
I couldn't agree with you more Robin, I have let my anger take over, and that has harmed my own arguement. I do apologise for any offence caused to people such as yourself. It is an age thing Robin...I should not react the way I did.
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I was not offended but, as you point out, your argument suffers when the red mist descends :)

R.
 
David Gauntlett said:
Colin,

The first part, if you don't like my "inane drivel", don't read it, simple really?

That really wasn't worth the effort, was it?

To the second part, some harsh retorts to something that's not "even the major problem";

Of course you will get comments like those you have listed in a situation like this, but it is a bit much to label them extremist over e few ribald jibes like that....some people are threatening similar treatment or worse for the English football team and the manager, It's called humour :rolleyes: However, I agree that in the case of otters, there are rumours that this has happened. I have no idea whether it is true or not, but I would not really be surprised if someone who has seen their livelihood literally being eaten has decided to take the law into their own hands...wrong, but understandable.

Also, why so many otter threads if they're not even perceived as "the major problem".

There are an awful lot of people out there fighting hard against pollution and all the other ills, always has been, always will be. When there is an obvious, very visible fish kill caused by pollution, there are threads on forums, newspaper articles and frequently it even makes the TV news. Obviously, when you have a forum dedicated almost entirely to one particular species of fish, and that species is threatened by yet another problem in a whole line of threats to it's wellbeing, people are going to get angry and talk about it...a lot! I think that is quite reasonable?

To the rest of your post, bleet away BUT who is listening and to what end?
(I could suggest you're whinging to an audience that will merely agree but basically to no avail)
Personally I'd rather try to deal with the underlying problems and achieve some success, good luck on your crusade cos you're sure going to need it!

Seems a bit ass about face taking on a lesser problem that offers a lesser chance of success rather than a greater threat which offers better odds on getting a result, prudence is certainly not your strong point then??!!
Click to expand...


Colin,

There you go again Colin!...."good luck on your crusade cos you're sure going to need it"

What crusade IS that? After all I have said, it STILL seems you are convinced that I am on a crusade to have otters exterminated...NOT TRUE COLIN...I really am not getting through to you, am I?

What I see as 'ASS about face' Colin is the fact that anglers always fall into two catagories...the totally apathetic majority, who can not be bothered with anything much, and the minority such as you and I who spend our time fighting each other, rather than dealing with the issues which are destroying our sport. Makes it really easy going, for the people causing our problems, doesnt it :rolleyes:

Truce Colin :D

Cheers, Dave.[/QUOTE]

Dave, in your words, That really wasn't worth the effort, was it?

Ps, Simon my phone is not working, but the culprits for issues witnessed at Somerton, may have been the three cows I saw slurping at Clifton today, or perhaps not?? ;):D:D:D
 
Rhys Perry said:
Hmmm...

And how anyone even has the nerve to complain about otters killing barbel in rivers where barbel were introduced, is beyond belief.
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Why, exactly, is this beyond belief Rhys? The barbel has no say in the matter of where it ends up and to suggest a Wye barbel, for instance, should be more acceptable as otter food than a Thames barbel is garbage. Barbel are indigenous to this country, irrespective of what river they live in. What is beyond belief is that, on a barbel fishing forum, so many contributors appear to have zero interest in the fate of the barbel. To prefer catching barbel to seeing otters does not automatically mean the same as voting for the eradication of the otter, it merely confirms that some people on here are actually barbel anglers and that is why they go fishing. Not to see "nature in all it's glory" but to catch barbel.
A person who goes by the maxim of "more to fishing than catching fish" is not automatically a superior being than the one who goes for the express purpose of catching fish.
 
Alex Gowney said:
Why, exactly, is this beyond belief Rhys? The barbel has no say in the matter of where it ends up and to suggest a Wye barbel, for instance, should be more acceptable as otter food than a Thames barbel is garbage. Barbel are indigenous to this country, irrespective of what river they live in. What is beyond belief is that, on a barbel fishing forum, so many contributors appear to have zero interest in the fate of the barbel. To prefer catching barbel to seeing otters does not automatically mean the same as voting for the eradication of the otter, it merely confirms that some people on here are actually barbel anglers and that is why they go fishing. Not to see "nature in all it's glory" but to catch barbel.
A person who goes by the maxim of "more to fishing than catching fish" is not automatically a superior being than the one who goes for the express purpose of catching fish.
Click to expand...

Otters are also indigenous to this country and in deed the river Wye, where as barbel are not. And just like you say about the barbel, otters also have no say in where they end up, only that they belong in the Wye, barbel were introduced there by man. I have no problem with this, but it is wholly selfish to want to maintain a healthy barbel population, in a river to which they are not indigenous, over a healthy otter population, which are indigenous, just so you can have it easy when it comes to catching.
Like I say, if all you care about is catching barbel, go stock your local mud puddle with them, where you can catch them all day, without fear of the nasty otters spoiling your fun.
Or perhaps you'd like to see our rivers totally devoid of all life except barbel? Just imagine that, no predators killing them, no trees or plants for them to hide from, or for you to get snagged in. Perfectly cut out pegs, to fit your deluxe recliner chair in, and a river stuffed full of specimen barbel. Why you wouldn't need to try at all!
I do sometimes wonder that this would be heaven to some fishermen.
 
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Rhys Perry said:
Otters are also indigenous to this country and in deed the river Wye, where as barbel are not. And just like you say about the barbel, otters also have no say in where they end up, only that they belong in the Wye, barbel were introduced there by man. I have no problem with this, but it is wholly selfish to want to maintain a healthy barbel population, in a river to which they are not indigenous, over a healthy otter population, which are indigenous, just so you can have it easy when it comes to catching.
Like I say, if all you care about is catching barbel, go stock your local mud puddle with them, where you can catch them all day, without fear of the nasty otters spoiling your fun.
Click to expand...


Rhys,

Why have you carefully avoided the main point made by Alex, i.e, "What is beyond belief is that, on a barbel fishing forum, so many contributors appear to have zero interest in the fate of the barbel." ?

I just wondered if you would be kind enough to satify our natural curiosity as to why you are member of this forum, when as Alex said, you clearly attach no importance to the welfare of barbel, to the point where it appears you don't really like them much at all?

I am not saying you should not be a member, you have every right to be a member of any forum you wish...I am merely curious as to why, when you clearly are MUCH more concerned with the wellbeing of otters, you chose this forum, rather than one involved solely with otters?

Don't worry if you would rather not reply to this...it is just idle curiosity...and we can all use our imagination in any case :rolleyes:

Oh...and by the way....whatever makes you think that putting barbel in a 'Mud puddle' would keep them safe from otters? There are an awful lot of 'Mud puddle' fishery owners that can testify to their cost that they most certainly would not be safe there!


Cheers, Dave.
 
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When have I ever said that I attach no importance to the welfare of barbel?
The welfare of barbel is of no more or less importance than that of otters. But as they are doing pretty well, in the vast majority of rivers in which they inhabit across the country, where as otters are not, I'd say their welfare is, at this time, not an issue.
As I am trying to point out, I personally believe that the whole eco system of a river, is of more importance than that of just the barbel population, otters included. Where as it would appear that most are only bothered about the fish they like to catch and to hell with anything else, yet try and make out they're concerned with the whole eco system, so as not to appear this way. Although no one is likely to admit it, I'm damn sure there are many fishermen who would be more than happy to see otters extinct in this country!
I love fishing for barbel, I love fishing for any fish really, but I also love nature and the feeling of being immersed it when I am fishing.
I repeat, if all you care about is catching fish, go fish over stocked commercials.
 
I totally agree with what rhys is saying..The point being made i think is that our river eco systems are in a bad way..Just because they look nice and clean doesent mean they are..The only problem regarding otters inparticular was that they were reintroduced without any proper fish stock surveys being carried out..Fish stocks are dissapearing at alarming rates from many rivers, indeed before any otters were reintroduced..The biggest enemy to the river eco system is the various water authorities and the ever increasing human population which will need extra water,which will come from our rivers..Due to large water abstraction coming out of our rivers various pollution which goes into the river is simply not being diluted properly due to not enough water in the river which is destroying the whole river eco system..It saddens me to see fish stocks dissapearing from one season to the next from some rivers and of course reintroducing otters has certainly not helped and if anything is highlighting just how bad some of our rivers have become..If the river eco system was in better shape otters wouldent be a problem...How many anglers on here conserve their water use?..because if everyone used water more carefully then the water authorities wouldent need to take so much out of our rivers and they might just get a chance to start to recover and the river eco systems improve...I would love to see otters removed untill the real more important issues have been addressed and the rivers are able to substain such an apex predator but thats not going to happen..I recommend highly that people read the new reports on otters..The rspca have become concerned regarding young otters turning up starving or near deaths door due to being attacked by another otter..Natural england and the EA which coincidently used part of anglers licence money to fund reintroduction of otters,are now beginning to recognise what damage they have created unfortunately its now too late for some rivers big fish stocks which have been lost but thats only because there werent enough smaller fish stocks to substain a apex predator such as the otter...But this brings us back to the same point....WHY HAVE THE FISH STOCKS DISSAPEARED???????;)
 
I'd agree with Rhys. And others who have made similar points in this thread and similar threads that have gone before.

Just because everybody on this site doesn't jump on the 'otter cull' bandwagon doesn't mean either a) they have their heads in the sand or b) that they don't care about barbel.

The fact is this is a complex problem with many different aspects - an unpopular statement in today's quick fix world, but a fact nonetheless.

Those who seek only to represent the interests of Barbel over the whole river environment are so shortsighted and partial as to be a potential negative influence of barbel fishing and angling in general. Some people's knee jerk response to seeing "their" quarry threatened by an apex predator smacks of self-interest rather than a wider environmental interest (which in the long term is Angling's only hope of survival).

There will most likely be a period of time (and for some on certain rivers that time has already started) where Barbel will not be as plentiful or as easy to catch as they were over the past 10-15 years. Some might remember times like it in the past. This may be compounded by other problems (cormorants decimating silver fish stocks, water abstraction, pollution and the rest). But unless the response to this huge challenge is properly considered in all respects, not just zooming in on what seem to be the most obvious and emotionally charged causes (like otters), we will have no positive effect on the issue at all. And in fact may just shoot ourselves in the foot by turning the public against us.

I, like many others, don't have a ready answer to all these problems. But the call to action I'll respond to positively will be one which co-ordinates a response to all the issues involved - principally the issue of water quality and the health of the ecosystem, but predation too, certainly - and then maybe we'll get somewhere.
 
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