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The Otters Next Victim

David Gauntlett said:
However...I do NOT need people like you telling me that this is a 'natural' situation, and that I should in effect rejoice in that fact because it is all my own doing :mad:

Cheers, Dave.
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Dave...
Who exactly are people like me???? I don't think we have ever met.!!!!;)
Seriously though...
I apologise if I have caused you any offence...it was certainly not my intention.
I may well be ill informed, and certainly have no personal experience of otter destruction...my memories of them are as a lad...getting the occasional glimpse of one and feeling very privileged...I would love to spot one when I am out fishing, same as I enjoy watching all wildlife... indeed it's one of the best things about the sport as far as I'm concerned.
However I bow to others obviously superior knowledge in the otter question...but will continue in my naive way to look forward to seeing on on the riverbank!!!
Tight lines!!!
Stuart
 
Pete, Ryhs - just realised you may have miss interpreted my post :

'Pass me the Remmington would you, i may be some time'

Was actually in referance to Dav H's post that our future in angling was pasties in puddles - " i may be some time " the last words of Scott - i just can't bring myself to fish those places! ;)

In Jest of coarse - i'm not going to shoot myself just because i will have to fish places like Whitmore to catch a decent sized barbel. As i mentioned in previous posts i haven't experienced the otter problem first hand - but i can clearly see the problems in certain localised areas - it should become obvious to everyone when a shy animal such as the otter is raiding garden ponds for food that there is something wrong with the habitat in which they should live. I repeat - should live - if the 'equilibrium' Stuart spoke of existed on these venues then there wouldn't be a problem!
 
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but, do you think

barbel fishing has been too easy over the last 10 years?
are we about to go back to the 70's and 80's where 1 or 2 a season would be a good year.
 
Pete Marshall said:
Boring facts, rather than ill informed nonsense and therefore sure to be ignored.
Otters nearly, note nearly as there were always some otters around in the UK in areas with low agricultural pollution such as most of the highlands of Scotland and certain rivers such as the Teme which is one of the reasons the Teme is a SSSI, died out because of agi chemical run off causing infertility (long since banned). Nothing to do with lack of food, nothing to do with hunting. Most Otter hunts had a voluntary ban on hunting long before Otters were protected under CITIES and WCA.
Otters are protected under the Wildlife and Country side act (WCA), not European legislation. They are also protected on the CITIES Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora, an international agreement again not European although implemented through the EU in European countries. This bans trade in Otters. Killing them is banned under WCA and a license to kill them can be applied for (however none had as of last year).
If you are going to campaign for an otter cull it might be useful to get the facts straight otherwise you really will be ignored.And I wish you all the best in calling for an otter cull, I can't wait for the newspaper headlines!
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Hi Pete,

I am taking it upon myself to reply to your post for two reasons..one, I am assuming that it was aimed at me (Sadly, I have to go with guessing on that point because, for whatever reason, you have chosen not to address your comments to anyone in particular). Secondly, I would hate to see your prediction that your 'boring facts would be ignored' come to fruition.

Now..I would not argue with most of the facts that you have presented us with regarding the true reasons for the demise of English otters , because you...appear at least...to be remarkably well informed, and I am always willing and happy to learn. Moreover, I freely admit that my version of the 'facts' is based on years of hearsay, together with a number of sources which I readily aknowledge may well be guilty at times of 'headline grabbing' inaccuracies. So, quite possibly guilty as charged your honour :D

What I am a little puzzled about however is your claim that the type of pollution to which I was refering, the type that wiped out ALL life in countless rivers in the past, which obviously included all prey fish, has had no effect on otters :eek: Now forgive me for being a little churlish here, but common sense surely points to the fact that such devastation would make the resident otters feal a little 'peaky' at the very least :rolleyes:

Come to that, and to answer another of your points, being torn in half by a pair of hounds would also seem to me to be a little prejudicial to their general wellbeing! (Sorry...that last was a cheap shot...I just couldn't resist it:D...just put it down to more "Ill informed nonsense")

Seriously though, I have no doubt whatsoever that you are absolutely correct in claiming that infertility caused by agricultural pollution was at the root of the problem...but I refuse to believe that my "Ill informed nonsense" regarding other pollution effects played no part in things whatsoever.

Finally, I have read through this thread several times now, to try and find where your comments regarding hunting, calls for culls etc. have come from...and I can find not one single mention of such things by any other poster. I for one would not get involved in calls for such things, as I fully understand the regrettable but still likely repercussions....and I don't think I am alone in that...

In light of that, I can only refer you back to your own advice..."Get your facts right".

Cheers, Dave.
 
David Hall said:
barbel fishing has been too easy over the last 10 years?
are we about to go back to the 70's and 80's where 1 or 2 a season would be a good year.
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David,

In the 70's i use to have my holidays on the Royalty - I remember catching 68 Barbel In one week - some of them on the float trotting down above the pipe bridge the rest of them out of the railway pool - there use to be fish everywhere you looked in those days and it seemed very easy to catch them !
They are not there in numbers anymore

Dave
 
Sat with a pal and her two kids watching telly yesterday - specifically the 'Framed Harry Hill programme. Saw something fascinating that, if birds got to do it over here, would be worrying: an American heron-type bird hopped across a roof, picked up a piece of bread put out for the birds, made its way to the deck of a waterside dock, dropped in the piece of bread, then almost instantly made a stab - FISH!

Clever bird.
 
i found the 70s and 80s to be a great time for my barbel fishing on the lea, kennet and thames, in fact far more prolific than today, the average weights were less but the sport was good....j.w
 
David Potter said:
David,

In the 70's i use to have my holidays on the Royalty - I remember catching 68 Barbel In one week - some of them on the float trotting down above the pipe bridge the rest of them out of the railway pool - there use to be fish everywhere you looked in those days and it seemed very easy to catch them !
They are not there in numbers anymore

Dave
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Hi David,

Snap :D Those were great days on the Royalty, weren't they? I recall some monumental catches from watersmeet, casting huge maggot feeders up from the far bank of the main river into the confluence with the parlour pool run off.

However, It seems to me that those halcyon days on the Rolalty were, as you say, at the time when the barbel population on the Avon was at its highest. I remember being enthralled by the accounts of massive catches by Walker and his band of merry men from the Royalty, and indeed it was that which inspired me to try my luck on that fabulous river a few short years later.

Rightly or wrongly, I get the impression that many of the rivers where the barbel populations are relatively new seem to have a sensational peak at one stage or another, and then drop off to more realistic levels. Rivers with longer term barbel populations seem to peak and trough a little, but still manage to maintain a reasonable average, perhaps without the spectacular highs of the newcomers, the Thames being a prime example of those with older populations.

I think what David Hall was refering to was the rivers in the areas he frequents, which have peaked during the last decade or so, but now seem to be on a bit of a worrying downward spiral....not to mention the fisheries which have been wiped out recently by our furry friends.

Cheers, Dave.
 
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So Otters have taken all the barbel from the Thames and most of its tributaries, yeah right!!

All I can say in the case of the Oxon stretch of Thames, Cherwell and Windrush is, bloody good job, what with the severe lack of water and dire quality of the water, they'd be all floating belly up towards Southend-On-Sea.

And if the Hampshire Avon was unchanged except for the Otters, what the hell has Ray Walton been campaigning against on that river??

I don't doubt Otters have had a detrimental effect on our rivers but really some (a lot) need to look for the biggest contributing factors as to their favourite rivers demise.

I often wonder how many angler have actually seen either an Otter or an Otter kill victim, yes we've all seen the same old pictures and yes we've all read the same old spiel by angling big names.....
BUT if it makes you feel better having a very securely protected culprit (scape goat) to blame, so having a perfect excuse to do nothing, then good on you:eek::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
David Gauntlett said:
Hi David,

Snap :D Those were great days on the Royalty, weren't they? I recall some monumental catches from watersmeet, casting huge maggot feeders up from the far bank of the main river into the confluence with the parlour pool run off.

However, It seems to me that those halcyon days on the Rolalty were, as you say, at the time when the barbel population on the Avon was at its highest. I remember being enthralled by the accounts of massive catches by Walker and his band of merry men from the Royalty, and indeed it was that which inspired me to try my luck on that fabulous river a few short years later.

Rightly or wrongly, I get the impression that many of the rivers where the barbel populations are relatively new seem to have a sensational peak at one stage or another, and then drop off to more realistic levels. Rivers with longer term barbel populations seem to peak and trough a little, but still manage to maintain a reasonable average, perhaps without the spectacular highs of the newcomers, the Thames being a prime example of the latter.

I think what David Hall was refering to was the rivers in the areas he frequents, which have peaked during the last decade or so, but now seem to be on a bit of a worrying downward spiral....not to mention the fisheries which have been wiped out recently by our furry friends.

Cheers, Dave.
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David,

Forgive me for reminiscing and this hasn’t got a lot to do with Otters but David do you remember Ken the fishery manager and his two assistants Bill & Wally ?
We all use to queue up in the morning and one by one up the steps into Ken’s office to get our ticket

The Pipes and Harrigan’s swims had to be booked in advance with Ken (Half a bottle of Scotch normally did the trick) I have still got a old day ticket somewhere with “Pipe” stamped on it !

The first time I fished the Royalty it was £1.50 per day, you needed a gallon of maggots and 10 lbs of groundbait which you made into large balls filled with maggots then gently lowered them into to your swim – then sat back and watched the Barbel break them open
It was only a mater of time before you watched one of them take your hook bait !

As you say Dave the fishing at waters meet was very special and looking back the river was low and clear as I remember wading out towards the Willow tree with my gear to float fish all day with out any problem – probably one of the best trotting swims ever for Barbel – sadly you cant run a float at all through there anymore

Enough i could go On & On

Dave
 
The dead barbel pic and report below are from a book dated 1952.
AIGJX-otterroyalty1.JPG


ottertext.JPG


There was a very high population of barbel and chub on the Royalty on the Hampshire Avon in the 1970's and 1980's with an average barbel size of 4-6lb.
Something happened on the Royalty in the early-mid 1990's when the barbel and chub populations significantly and noticeably declined/disappeared.
In my opinion, this was probably due to a number of serious pollution incidents (which were reported but dismissed as 'non-events' at the time by the NRA(now EA), and no one was prosecuted). Also, another probable reason was downgrading of water quality during water privatisation in 1989 to where water companies became 'immune' from prosecution when discharging low grade effluents which knowingly could damage the river environment.
A Restocking of the Royalty with 5,000 (five thousand) took place in 1993 with 2 year old fish (around 6-8" inches in size) and were dye marked.
Over the next 5 years or so after the stocking, and to where the stocked barbel should have matured and reached the 4-6lb bracket, they did not show up in catches as expected.
During this time, other more pollution and oxygen tolerant species such as Carp and Bream became more dominant on the fishery and increased in population and size.
The lower number of ‘surviving’ and/or the original remaining barbel began to increase in weight to where the average size increased to 7-9lb in the late 1990’s, and with more double figure fish being caught than in the 1970’s and 1980’s.
The Otters today do frequent the Royalty Fishery and one was seen in daylight 2 weeks ago in the Trammels. Big barbel, pike, carp and perch carcasses have been found on the banks over the past five years.
 
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It saddens me that a so called voice for angling cannot suggest more than 'probably due to' and cites declines in sport to 'probably due to' and most recent records that are 17 years old

I look forward to someone explaining why - in spite of otter and various other sightings of predators that I enjoy some of the best fishing in north yorkshire for a generation.

geoff
 
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David Potter said:
David,

Forgive me for reminiscing and this hasn’t got a lot to do with Otters but David do you remember Ken the fishery manager and his two assistants Bill & Wally ?
We all use to queue up in the morning and one by one up the steps into Ken’s office to get our ticket

The Pipes and Harrigan’s swims had to be booked in advance with Ken (Half a bottle of Scotch normally did the trick) I have still got a old day ticket somewhere with “Pipe†stamped on it !

The first time I fished the Royalty it was £1.50 per day, you needed a gallon of maggots and 10 lbs of groundbait which you made into large balls filled with maggots then gently lowered them into to your swim – then sat back and watched the Barbel break them open
It was only a mater of time before you watched one of them take your hook bait !

As you say Dave the fishing at waters meet was very special and looking back the river was low and clear as I remember wading out towards the Willow tree with my gear to float fish all day with out any problem – probably one of the best trotting swims ever for Barbel – sadly you cant run a float at all through there anymore

Enough i could go On & On

Dave
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High David,

Yes, I certainly do...though I hasten to add that mine were not frequent visits (At least, not nearly as frequent as I would have wished). I don't drive :rolleyes:, so it was all down to who I could scrounge a lift from, living as I did around the Middlesex area...sometimes when times were bad it would be a solitary pilgrimage for that year :eek:

However, great times were had, it being just about the most evocative water I have ever fished. Even the dour Ken could not dampen our spirits :D Mind you, I am not too sure I could make it to the top of those wretched steps now...whatever posessed them to place the shed/office up there for heavens sake :D:D

If you recall, the rivalry between anglers started before you were even on the fishery...the mad rush to get through that gate as soon as the padlock was removed, park the car, then climb those steps as fast as possible to get your ticket, followed by the mad rush, laden down by a mountain of gear, to try to be first to the favoured swims :p How we didn't end up having a coronary I don't know...but I am damned sure I would now if I tried it :D

I recall a friend of mine having great success trundling a chunk of meat through the trammels one year, and then repeating his success in the top weir...and this long, long before the method was popularised by young Ray:D. I also recall spotting some large barbel from the bypass bridge, and legging it down there almost wetting myself with excitement and anticipation, only to spend the next couple of hours sinking further and further into dark despondency when the expected bites were not forthcoming. Inevitably, the second I took my eye off of the rod to try to spot the uncooperative fish, the butt cracked me beside the head to remind me of the error of my ways....never fails, does it :D. Luckily, despite the ensuing confusion and panic, I somehow landed what turned out to be my first double...I was ever so grateful to it for taking pity on me :eek:

I had one rather odd day, when I caught almost every species of fish that inhabits the Avon...including pike and decent carp...on feeder fished maggot :confused: On another 'unusual' occasion, a large and obviously rather sick sea trout beached itself in a cattle drink at my feet, and promptly upped and died :eek:. I popped down and gathered it up, and on the way home we dropped in to the kitchen at the back of a restaurant on the bypass, and sold it...the proceeds payed for our maggots on that trip :D We did have the odd twinge of guilt, having told the chef that we had just caught the thing... and I remember praying desperately that the he had not taken the car registration, should it turn out that a few of his customers mysteriously died after consuming a rather expensive portions of 'our' sea trout :eek:....:D

Oddly enough, inbetween all this mayhem, we caught large numbers of barbel...I can only liken the Royalty of those days to the magic of the best of the French mecca's for carpers now...places where dreams are lived out for so many joyous anglers...happy memories indeed Dave.

Cheers, Dave G.
 
Andrew Boyne said:
Pete, Ryhs - just realised you may have miss interpreted my post :

'Pass me the Remmington would you, i may be some time'

Was actually in referance to Dav H's post that our future in angling was pasties in puddles - " i may be some time " the last words of Scott - i just can't bring myself to fish those places! ;)

In Jest of coarse - i'm not going to shoot myself just because i will have to fish places like Whitmore to catch a decent sized barbel. As i mentioned in previous posts i haven't experienced the otter problem first hand - but i can clearly see the problems in certain localised areas - it should become obvious to everyone when a shy animal such as the otter is raiding garden ponds for food that there is something wrong with the habitat in which they should live. I repeat - should live - if the 'equilibrium' Stuart spoke of existed on these venues then there wouldn't be a problem!
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Hi Andy
They are not far away mate,i have had several reports from further up the river this year:mad:
 
Geoff, If you fish a healthy river with no fry-recruitment problems then the presence of otters may not pose a serious threat to its stock numbers. However, if your river already has fry-recruitment problems then the presence of otters will impact on the fishery, and possibly do so very seriously. The EA have accepted this on the Wensum and have overcome their own reluctance to restock, because despite all efforts to improve fish habitat, the otters are eating more fish that the river can naturally replace.

I know nothing of the fishing in North Yorkshire. I'd be interested to know what you mean when you say you are enjoying the best fishing in generations?..... if you are saying that there are lots more fish around, then I'd say count your blessings. If you mean that the fish are bigger than ever?.... then I'd suggest that diminishing competition is responsible for this, which suggests that the rot is already setting in. There could be all sorts of reasons for this, with otter predation being at least partly responsible.
 
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