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Otter Devestation??

Dave Taylor said:
It was restaurateurs who applied for a licience to stock the bl##dy things in the first place!!
Some genius [ who also thought that they would be yummy ] , made the dreadfull decision to grant it.
Given that I'm a tad tense watching the game at the moment,...I would consider that a mild translation!:D
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That's history Dave. Look to the future, for a solution. They must be eaten. Either that or caught humanely and repatriated at great expense to the tax payer.

They are yummy though Dave. Have you tried them?

Don't be tense, this is England. We'll get nowhere, so chill :)

cheers
 
Would go for the excellent river environment every time. Always go for what's possible rather than what's probable.

1:2 but a good performance.
 
Mark, Malmesbury avon project. B.avon. Somerfords Fishing Association were concerned with over-abstraction and flows. Simply removing the riffle and pool sequence can kill off a fishery in no time. Anyway, long story short, on average over three years, improved stretches supported 3.8 times more barbel, 2.8 times more chub, 2.7 times more roach, 2.5 times dace and 6.0 times perch. Grayling were 25 times more abundant and wild brown trout produced more parr. Various studies near to me on the Perry, Vyrnwy etc. all the southern ones are easy to find.
Contact Research and Conservation regarding BS stuff. There's loads. Think a bit of info on site but nothing data related but that's easily sorted with an email. Right, happy Father's Day. I'm off to the boozer. People to see, things to do. Good luck in the new season.
 
Andrew Boyne said:
Totally agree Neil. Without the facts and figures that nobody has to prove the devastation some people talk of nothing will ever happen regarding the Otter and I for one am glad about that. Don't get me wrong - I'm well aware some sections of a handful of rivers have had a rough time - but devastated? Take the Great Ouse as an example. Yes a handful of very big, and no doubt very old, fish were eaten from one particular section which no doubt was devastating for the anglers that fished it - but for the whole river? How is it then that there are pictures of big Barbel from the Great Ouse in the angling press almost every week? Back end of last season there was a brace for 30lb reported and it's rumoured that one of it's tributaries has a record shaker swimming about in it. Doesn't sound like a river that's been devastated to me.
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Yes Andrew, devastated, in the case of the Cherwell and Windrush. Go and try to catch a barbel on either of them and maybe you will understand what we mean.
 
Dave Taylor said:
Purely hypothetical of course, but if you could choose one of the following, which would it be?
Excellent river enviroment
No cormorants
No signal crayfish
Or no otters.

I thought about it and figured that having good water quality and habitat would increase fish recruitment, but would increase the cormorant and otter population.
No cormorants would benefit otters and smaller fish.
No otters would safeguard some of our bigger fish.
No signals would benefit all fish and invertibrate species and at least allow an angler a chance to present a static bait.
If it was just one choice it has to be the signal crayfish for me.

Going back to page one of this thread, I would still like to see a record of visible otter kills and sitings from river and stillwater anglers as we are surely some of the best eyes and ears the EA, AT and various river trusts can hope for.
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Signals every time! Sure otters do a lot of damage but these things will stop any fry recruitment.
 
Bobby Baker said:
Mark, Malmesbury avon project. B.avon. Somerfords Fishing Association were concerned with over-abstraction and flows. Simply removing the riffle and pool sequence can kill off a fishery in no time. Anyway, long story short, on average over three years, improved stretches supported 3.8 times more barbel, 2.8 times more chub, 2.7 times more roach, 2.5 times dace and 6.0 times perch. Grayling were 25 times more abundant and wild brown trout produced more parr. Various studies near to me on the Perry, Vyrnwy etc. all the southern ones are easy to find.
Contact Research and Conservation regarding BS stuff. There's loads. Think a bit of info on site but nothing data related but that's easily sorted with an email. Right, happy Father's Day. I'm off to the boozer. People to see, things to do. Good luck in the new season.
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That's great news fo Malmesbury / Somerford, used to be my local, I will certainly try and gain more info regarding this effort. Don't over do it if you plan an early start:)
 
Hi men,

The B Avon sounds good , and the increase of 3.8 of the barbel flies in the face of those who fish that river . Now why ain't this being done all over the country Bobby , does it need more information regarding it supplied to the relative groups ?, and have the BS taken this up ?.

Hatter
 
Hiya Mark, that's quite an old study used as an example just to show the smallest of changes like even adding deflectors into the river will boost populations and recruitment for various reasons (I can't be arsed to list right now as I'm enjoying my rum). That's essentially all that was done in the report I refer to. Good eh!
The work is done quite a lot on game rivers etc mate to make way for resting pools but the information isn't put out as much as it should be, as a lot is in-house or people have to dig deep to find (Or it is but barbel forums aren't the be all and end all of info). I believe the BS do lots of work like this, especially on the H.Avon with the Avon Roach Project etc in particular, with studies and work about to take place on the Teme and Severn....The benefits need making clear to all and advertising more for sure but I suppose people are so busy doing instead of talking. That's the key. It's getting there slowly.
 
Hi men,

Mad eh Bobby ?, if such a little amount of work increases the barbel by 3.8 then why on earth has that not been rolled out ?, especially as this subject has been going on for 10 years !, at the projected 3.8 that would give around 12 ?, simplistic I know but even the EA ain't thick enough to ignore any improvements !. Mind you my dealings with them on this subject say otherwise .

Rhys , £2,000,000 improvements ?????, that's why it's not been taken up !:D


Hatter
 
Ha! Yeah I know, though it is over 15-20 years, still a lot of money I'll grant you that but we're talking salmon money here!
The two Bob's have highlighted more realistic ideas, better farming practices and land management are key I reckon.
 
I fished Somerford last year hardly saw any chub and no barbel a regular told me it had gone right down hill. I'll check with a mate who's involved.
 
Actually Clive I heard much the same - I gave up my membership last year. Hope things change.
Cheers
Bob
 
So, another false dawn? I actually was a bit sceptical that any part of the BA had improved Barbel wise or any other species come to that, possibly abstraction which has been a curse of the upper Avon, together with predation has combined to ruin what was such a prolific River.

It was not that long ago that just below Malmesbury Barbel were quite common along with big Chub and quality Roach and Perch.

The good Dr Everard was a regular visitor here, he had 'access all areas' due to his association with the EA including clubs no one else could join unless you worked for the company, perhaps I should ask him what his view on the demise of the Avon is down to.

Just checked a 2012 AT feature Dr Everard had EIGHT 2lb Roach from the Great Somerford stretch....
 
Andrew Boyne said:
Because you've logged in a couple of days before the new season starts to see yet another doom mongering Otter thread and it does your head in - fully understandable. Anyway - I've done the math that Dave talked of regarding predators and prey and it turns out Barbel will be extinct by the end of July. I'm also **** at maths by the way but can manage enough to know his 'devastated' local river did a new river record last March nearly 2lb heavier than anything my local has ever done.
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Why do you persist in repeating incorrect statements like the above Andrew? I have already answered your nonsense above in a previous post on this thread, but as your attention span seems every bit as bad as your maths...I will repeat my reply, in an easy to understand format.

I NEVER said my local stretch had been devastated by otters...that is complete bunkum on your part. In the thread you are incorrectly quoting from, I said that there were reports of otter sightings in another stretch not far from mine, and so was dreading them spreading from there to my stretch. As I said before, it never happened....either the sightings were of incorrectly identified mink, or were mischievous rumour spreading...I have no idea. I am just glad it was a false alarm.

Again, as I said before, my stretch lies within an extremely popular water park with full public access. I was fishing there from midnight last night...(had a 10,08...I am sure you are very happy for me) It is the local (and not just local) dog walkers paradise (and toilet) they NEVER bother to clear up after their dogs, and there are literally thousands of them walked and 'good boy-ed' every time they poo there every week. You are lucky to find a poo free swim. The reason I tell you this is that I have been reliably informed that otters will not take up residence in such an area....because of the numbers of humans there on a regular basis, and because of the stench of their nemesis (dogs) poo....so at least they have taste :D:D. Before I left today, dogs tried to steal my bait on AT LEAST a dozen different occasions....fact....and pretty par for the course 6<9 months of the year.

As for the 'new record'....it may....or may not be a fact. The original record (held by a friend of mine) was only a few ounces lighter than the weight currently being claimed as the new one. I am not for one moment suggesting that there was any deliberate attempt at deception, but nothing was proven about this one, no scales checked or any of the other proofs of accuracy. So...a few ounces either way? who knows...it may, or may not, be so.

Either way, I fail to see what the fact that it has produced larger fish than your local....has to do with anything. Other than that you lot need to practice more :D:D

On a serious note...it is the very fact that my local has a healthy and happily breeding stock of barbel, with NO recruitment problems...and capable of producing the glorious specimens you refer to....which has me so worried about otters. It is a tiny, shallowish (very shallow in many parts) river...the very type of river otters utterly destroy if they move in. Not because they are 'sick old fish on their last legs anyway' and all the other tosh you spout as excuses for the otter devastation that occurs in such rivers if they move in. It is because the rivers are tiny...the fish have nowhere to hide, nowhere to escape to...it's like a turkey shoot for the otters. They, much like foxes in a chicken coop, kill virtually every fish, eat a tiny part of them, then move on to pastures new.

Am I REALLY supposed to be happy if that does happen? Seriously? Just smile ruefully and say 'ah well, it's just one of those things, never mind?' Because that seems to be what you and others are saying. I just trust in luck and the dog poo theory, fingers crossed and all that. I can send you some if it works.....in fact I'd love to, lol.


Cheers, Dave
 
I liked your last post Dave, in fact I liked them all.

We are specimen anglers. How are we supposed to feel or react if we see our stretches of river become devoid of specimen sized fish? Even Steve Pope refers to the "doom and gloom" syndrome in relation to the otter predation issue. I wonder what Steve will think if his guiding venues come under otter attack to the point where there are no big fish left? The thing is, most will not react if they are not facing the total demise of big fish along their rivers. I call that the "I'm alright Jack" syndrome. And fair enough, there will be anglers who are fine about loosing their big fish if it means the otter revival continues.

But going back to the issue itself without sitting in the for or against camp. Political angling, as in the AT, are not looking at the bigger picture in regards to otter predation. We need to stop looking inwards to how this issue if effecting our sport but look how it "might" be effecting other wildlife. We must remember that the otter being an apex predator does not just predate on fish alone. In order to present a case to the general public that will hold up to scrutiny we have to tell the whole story. Photographs of emaciated quarter eaten fish should only form part of the evidence. We need evidence of other otter predation. Predation upon creatures that the general public also have an affiliation with. Presently we are painting a picture of otter predation that the general public "accepts" as being normal. Otters eat fish so what? They might take a different view if we could offer up evidence say of partly eaten Jemima Puddle Duck and her chicks or Ratty the water vole. Throw in a few rare breeding birds like the Bittern, Silts, Water Rail or the Harriers to get the RSPB to stand up and take notice. And even if they don't get their membership to take notice once we have the evidence.

Evidence. That's the crucial aspect. There are no sections within the UK population that frequent watery places more than anglers. There are no stretches of freshwater in this country that come under bigger control than that of our fishing clubs. Our fishing clubs and their members are the key because it is they who can gather the evidence, not just about otter predation on fish but other species of wildlife as well.

We are a nation that cares about wildlife. A nation brimmed full of wildlife organisations. If an environment truly sustains otters fine. If it doesn't move the otters to an environment which does. None of this is rocket science but it does require some traditional wildlife management. And management is what it will come to in the end so why not begin to get it right now?
 
correct Lee and if i find any within reach i do some of my own management with a club and i aint talkin fishing club, more like a good stout blackthorn with a heavy rootball:)
 
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