• You need to be a registered member of Barbel Fishing World to post on these forums. Some of the forums are hidden from non-members. Please refer to the instructions on the ‘Register’ page for details of how to join the new incarnation of BFW...

Otter Devestation??

Rhys Perry said:
Habitat improvement would be a start, but you're right it would be a long term project, then again otters have been around a while now so you'd hope their numbers would be stabilizing after the initial reintroduction programs. Maybe a good restocking of fish, but that'll need to dependent on habitat improvements for it to be worth while I'd imagine.
There are successes, albeit big Salmon rivers, such as the Tyne and Tweed, and the Wye Usk foundation have done great work. Ok they have Salmon money to chuck at it but it shows what can be done, they all have otters, and the Wye has a healthy population of coarse fish.
Click to expand...




The rivers you mention that are a success are large rivers that in all probability have always had their own population of Otters before any reintroductions, because of their territorial nature I doubt any reintroduced otters settled near these already established populations meaning they had to move to other areas/rivers.

I am all for habitat improvement but there has to be a viable population of fish in a river for the improvement to have any effect on fish populations,
Hoping that Otter numbers have stabilized will do nothing to help the situation that some small rivers are in right now, I doubt that they have stabilized.

Restocking IMO would be just feeding the otters and encouraging the survival of more otters, where are the massive numbers of fish needed for restocking to come from? who will pay for this restocking?

You say if other problems were put right then otters would not be a problem, the other problems are not going to be put right overnight they will take years to sort out if they ever are, it is estimated that it will take 47 to 52 billion pounds to uprate all water treatment plants in England and Wales to be able to remove all estrogens from our waters who will pay?

The long term solutions are very laudable but the problem needs something doing NOW and that something is IMO controlling otters, who knows perhaps the estrogens in our waters will reach such a level that the breeding capability of otters will hopefully be affected although I fear its already to late for some small rivers.
 
David Gauntlett said:
Hi again Ash :D

You say 'The otters re-inroduction is a conservation success.' Errrr....ok....and? Does the fact that something is a success mean that it is necessarily right? For instance, (and I KNOW this is silly, but it's just to prove my point)....if they successfully re-introduced bears to Wimbledon common, and they started killing people (as if :D) would the success of that reintroduction make it right?

Not a serious thing Ash, it's just that it annoys me when folk trot out these basically meaningless clichés. As is making silly meaningless points to prove a point, all that does is suggest your original point is meaningless.

You later say 'Anglers should look to address the root cause of the problem, which to me, is why cant fish breed in many of our rivers any more? Perhaps they are too sterile?' Yep, OK Ash, you may well be right. However...if we assume you ARE right on this....do you not think that adding an apex predator to the brew, at just the time the fish were unable to multiply...was a teensy weensy bit of a silly thing to do? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that if you did that...the fish would be pretty well wiped out...and the otters would then starve to death. Of course that is an over simplification of the situation, because re-introduction is not the full story...but it certainly didn't help, so it is a point, isn't it?

TOO sterile Ash :eek: so if you were only....no, I am not going there mate, that would be below the belt :D:D

Cheers, Dave.
Click to expand...

Dave, you do have a point.

The reintroduction of the otter at such a time wasnt a wise thing to do from an anglers perspective. But, and its a big but, it has happened, otters are thriving and you need to get over it. Conservation successes are not cliched in the slightest, it probably sums up a certain mindset to suggest so.

Ranting on and on making the same obvious points time and time again is as annoying as meaningless cliches. As is using meaningless points to back up your point, it makes your original point meaningless.

Conservationists have put in lots of work to help otters, mostly on voluntary basis and they will continue to do so. They frankly put forum waring anglers to shame.

The imbalance that the fish found themselves in would have happened with or without otters. That is the point. Anglers are still doing naff all and with such an attitude we really must appreciate that we can only make the best of whats there.

I feel sorry for stillwater fisheries that flourished when there was no otter population, and its a shame that they will all be shrouded in otter fencing to protect themselves.
 
What Ash says rings true, controlling otters is just papering over the cracks for a lot of these small rivers that were in decline anyway with their population of a few big old fish. It's a quick fix as I've been saying all along, the solution needs to be dealt with long term.
Perhaps we all need to put more effort in, and I'm as guilty as anyone in this, let's face it the only effort most anglers put in is making nice pegs and clearing undergrowth. It would also be nice to see the EA spend more of our money on improvements as I'm not convinced all our licence money isn't used to prop up other areas.
 
What ever your views are on Otters and what ever your arguments are on controlling Otters

Do people really believe that this goverment or the next goverment could be convinced , persuaded , influenced in to introducing legislation for the contol of Otters ? I assume it would take a act of parliment for it to be given the go ahead ? and where would the money come from ?
 
Joe Fletcher said:
What ever your views are on Otters and what ever your arguments are on controlling Otters

Do people really believe that this goverment or the next goverment could be convinced , persuaded , influenced in to introducing legislation for the contol of Otters ? I assume it would take a act of parliment for it to be given the go ahead ? and where would the money come from ?
Click to expand...

Not a chance. Even if you convinced them to do a study into the impact of Otters it would take years to complete, in which time all the other environmental conservation groups who are actively trying to improve the river habitat for the benefit of Otters will have probably done a decent enough job for the report to conclude there has been no negative impact! It's an utterly pointless and ultimately very damaging thing to call for. The only way any action will be taken now is if, as others on here have suggested, people go out with a kill on sight mentality. If that's the sort of thing the general membership of BFW wants to encourage then I'd rather not be a part of it.
 
Rhys Perry said:
What Ash says rings true, controlling otters is just papering over the cracks for a lot of these small rivers that were in decline anyway with their population of a few big old fish. It's a quick fix as I've been saying all along, the solution needs to be dealt with long term.
Perhaps we all need to put more effort in, and I'm as guilty as anyone in this, let's face it the only effort most anglers put in is making nice pegs and clearing undergrowth. It would also be nice to see the EA spend more of our money on improvements as I'm not convinced all our licence money isn't used to prop up other areas.
Click to expand...

Not totally correct I'm afraid. Neither the Windrush or the Cherwell were in any way, shape or form in decline, quite the opposite in fact. The Windrush had a terrific head of fish as did the Cherwell, although barbel have always been very localised on the Cherwell, it had a very strong chub population. As Dave points out, although other factors have to be considered it is a truth that these rivers, along with the upper Thames declined rapidly with the re-appearance of otters. I do not recall any articles suggesting they were in decline before this.
 
Rhys, you're bang on the money. Couldn't put it better myself. I think people calling for action are forgetting the European Habitats Directive. Good luck modifying that. Best focusing on the invaders and habitat improvement, plus they're areas you have half a chance in making a difference....and ones that matter in my opinion. If you've got a few quid to change Europe's nature conservation policy then fair play, good luck to you. Don't forget for as many anglers wanting a control on otters, you'll have just as many disagreeing. Typical that we bring an animal back from the brink and now people want it thinning out again. Go figure.......evidence is key and no one has bugger all of it. Just speculation and a small number of dodgy photos. Again, good luck with taking on the EU with that.
 
Its all just a massive coincidence then isn't it, rivers that were doing fine as far as fish populations go ( including fish of all sizes being present ) are now a shadow of what they were before the spread of otters came about, yes just an amazing coincidence.
 
So what are they feeding on if they've taken all the fish? What was sustaining them back in the days before their numbers started decreasing? Clearly it's possible for otter and fish numbers to remain healthy in rivers as they have done before or we would not have either as indigenous to this country. I know a lot has changed since then but we know they can and do thrive together in other rivers so it has to be a deeper problem than simply otters.
Seeing as we can probably all agree that they're far to protected and that's very unlikely to change, what choice do we have other than to either just accept it or do something about improving the whole system.
 
I hope they're feeding on signals! Back in the days before their initial demise the natural otter population probably regulated itself by food available. I don't think many people deny the otter it's right to exist as an indigenous species. Most anger is directed towards thoughtless releases. The morons who let them go on the Wensum, because it was "a suitable habitat", had no thought or consideration of all the work put in by Chris Turnbull and his colleagues, work that actually made the river such a suitable environment in the first place. Now all their work and their superb fishing has been wiped out by some selfish bar stewards who couldn't see beyond the cute, furry animal. And even if they could, they wouldn't have cared less. I wonder exactly what work and effort all these otter lovers actually put in to the rivers themselves to make them suitable for otters. Not a lot I wouldn't have thought. They let anglers do the work then wrecked it all for their own selfish ends :mad:

Maybe they're the ones who should be cull, er, controlled, not the otters
 
Can't see that there will be any such initiative for any legal control on Otter numbers, unless they start becoming a nuisance to farmers, so, then we have to just make the best of it and as said look to improving the river habitat. Perhaps we are near where we should be as far as Barbel Otter numbers that is right for a River habitat. Let's be honest the Barbel have had it pretty much their own way in the past, and there was just too many of them in most rivers.

I think what should concern us as anglers, not just as Barbel anglers is the lack of other species such as the Roach, and that cannot be attributed to the Otter, but of course the Shag.... it would seem we do have some sympathetic ears when it comes to this creature, as we do to with the Signal, God knows the devastation the signal is having on recruitment of fish stocks, perhaps we might be overlooking the real enemies here?

I am not burying my head in the sand, just trying to think beyond what we perceive as the only problem, and perhaps at a problem that we have a chance of controlling, unlike the Otter.
 
Hi men,

Agreed on above Neil , perhaps it should have done in reverse ?, where the habitat / recruitment situation was up to taking otters on a stretch before they turned up ?. To late now , but can anyone tell me of any success with habitat improvement , real facts where work is carried out on a stretch and things have got better ?, not just EA tipping in hundereds , nearly thousands of barbel into my local river Ouse where numbers have crashed as their way of counteracting the problems. If any of these initiatives have worked then they could be rolled out to other areas/rivers surely ?.


Hatter
 
Rhys Perry said:
So what are they feeding on if they've taken all the fish? What was sustaining them back in the days before their numbers started decreasing? Clearly it's possible for otter and fish numbers to remain healthy in rivers as they have done before or we would not have either as indigenous to this country. I know a lot has changed since then but we know they can and do thrive together in other rivers so it has to be a deeper problem than simply otters.
Seeing as we can probably all agree that they're far to protected and that's very unlikely to change, what choice do we have other than to either just accept it or do something about improving the whole system.
Click to expand...



The same as they are now, anything they can get their teeth into.

Yes they are overly protected, and seeing as the whole system being improved would take years, there will be NOTHING left in some rivers by then, what do the pro otter posters suggest can be done now to protect the fishing on already damaged rivers to stop the damage being made worse?
 
Precisely what I've been trying to say Neil.

Mark, if you have a dig on the internet you can find such successful habitat improvements on Salmon rivers, though obviously they've had plenty of money thrown at it, but the point being it can be done.
 
Hi men,

Rhys , why if they have been successful have the EA not repeated them on barbel rivers ? , but spend money on putting fingerlings in ?. In fact any BS members know of how the habitat improvements they were involved in went ?.

Hatter
 
Honestly Graham I don't know if there is a quick fix solution you so desire, but if they do eat absolutely everything in the rivers, I have my doubts, then they won't be around much longer themselves.
One thing's for sure if their numbers do start crashing then there'll be calls to replace them, so the long term answer is the only answer.
At least you've lived through the good times on these rivers, if you haven't then you don't know any different, but they can be restored over time. Just need a bit of patience and hard work is all.
 
Can't answer that Mark, but I believe they've been mostly privately funded with voluntary work and little involvement from the EA. Think that says a lot about how much of our licence money gets wasted.
 
I know the EA regularly clean the gravels on the Ouse, Mark.

I have often remarked to my friend, who works closely with them, that why dont they look to do more flow improvement work as this will in turn keep the gravel clean?

I think the farming practises along the Ouse's catchment have alot to do with the rivers decline. Siltation being the main problem.
 
Hi men,

Ash , has the gravel cleaning helped in any way ?, as once we identify small small things that help , then put the parts together to form some sort of blueprint !. Trouble is Iv searched for things that have helped and there is very little that comes back as successful , other than areas that help fry , and that's if you can get the fry in first place .


Hatter
 
Hi men ,

Rhys , once we find these good improvements you have found , then I'm sure we can bring pressure through interested groups , including barbel groups to look into implementing them.


Hatter
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top