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Otter Devestation??

Hi men ,

I spoke to a couple of people doing a study on the crays on the Windrush , they said "the bottom was carpeted with reds" . I asked about ways to reduce their numbers other than trapping , but their responce that other than "Arking" ( where to kill them , you kill everything then stop reindroduction ) they were one of the toughest things on earth :( , and they could see no way out of the cray problem .


Hatter
 
I have always suspected Crays to be the invisible scourge of our Rivers, jut how you keep their numbers down I don't know, but the EA 'initiative' of issuing trapping licences for individuals is just scratching the surface... err bottom.
 
Neil Smart said:
I have always suspected Crays to be the invisible scourge of our Rivers, jut how you keep their numbers down I don't know, but the EA 'initiative' of issuing trapping licences for individuals is just scratching the surface... err bottom.
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Trapping on the Kennet helps massively but obviously it needs to be maintained on a permanent basis.
 
Alex Gowney said:
Trapping on the Kennet helps massively but obviously it needs to be maintained on a permanent basis.
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Interesting post Alex as I've heard conflicting reports on trapping - some suggest removing the large adults creates an increase in numbers of young surviving thus making the problem worse. If you have first hand experience that it works I'm happy to hear that and would encourage everyone on a river that has Signals in to get a licence and a few traps - just drop 'em in at the start of the session and collect them on your way home. As Neil has suggested it might be very small steps but every little helps as the ad says. I can imagine in the case of the Cherwell you'll need to remove skip loads of the things - lots of skips. :(
 
Having fished the Thames, Cherwell, Windrush and Kennet I can state categorically that the Kennet is the most signal free of all of them. I don't have as much experience on the Thames as the Cherwell and Windrush but it doesn't seem quite as bad, mainly because it's a lot bigger river I suspect. The Kennet is the only one where you regularly see a trapper so that says it all in my view. I never really bother with any of these rivers now, the Kennet being a bit far and the other three so declined as to be depressing. I much prefer the Warks Avon, which is so far signal free.
 
Hi men,

Alex , walked the banks of the Windrush and Evenlode for a good while today , forgot how utterly fantastic these rivers look , great memories .
 
I used to fish the short 'Rose Revived' section of the Windrush, from the confluence with the Thames up to the weir, and the short length of the Thames itself that was on the ticket. We had a great time catching barbel and chub in those days. However, that was over 40 years ago, wouldn't want to go back now, would be too depressing.

Cheers, Dave.
 
"would be too depressing" This pretty much nails it for myself also. This'll be my 4th season away from my local rivers. I've been walkies a few times in between, wishing to see those shoals of barbel and chub again, but they've been a 'no show'.

Reading through this thread is a very emotional thing for me, rivers were a part, a big part of my life, and what swam within them. Now I feel an emptiness, a situation that I personally can never see a reversal of.

As has been noted previously, unless your river is one of the big three or four, there will be many more blanks, than those where you will be sliding the net under the bronze flanks of a lovely glisteningly, beautiful boris.

No point in arguing amongst ourselves, the damage has been done.
 
Spot on Chris. My fishing is still reasonably good...but it is depressing to know that it is only a matter of time until that is no longer so. I also agree that it is pointless arguing amongst ourselves...that is just a way for us older guys to vent our spleen, display our anger over the worsening situation.

I can look back to the way our rivers were when I started fishing over sixty years ago....and the rivers then were a joy to behold, and to fish. They bare NO relationship now to the way they were then. Ok, I live in a privileged area in that sense...there were areas, in the industrialised heartlands for instance, where the rivers were infinitely worse at that time...but I am talking about the average, not those exceptional areas. They SAY that rivers are cleaner now...but that seems to me to be a rather debatable point. Some rivers LOOK cleaner now...but at the same time, some of those apparently 'clean' rivers are relatively lifeless. I recall small local rivers and streams that were absolutely teeming with life of every description when I was young, the natural pyramid of life, from healthy algae such as ranunculus, to the tiniest invertebrates, and onwards up the chain to the apex predator for that particular water...were all present and thriving. Those same waters now LOOK clean...some even LOOK cleaner than they did back then....but many are practically lifeless, certainly when compared to back then.

So...what has changed? I don't know, but I have my suspicions. I suspect that there are numerous unpleasant chemicals, or cocktails of chemicals...that may well be practically invisible in solution, which were NOT around then (certainly not in significant amounts, and some not at all)...but which are there now. I think these are partly the result of the demands of modern living...but more significantly, the result of greed, of techniques developed to increase profits. It is my belief that such things have reduced the capacity of our rivers to support the full spectrum of life at the levels they once did....which is why many (if not all) cases, our rivers are mere shadows of their former selves. There will undoubtedly be some species of life, some fish etc., that are less demanding, are able to cope with less than pristine conditions. These may even thrive for a while...but overall, things are not good.

Add to that 'on the edge' situation (where many species are barely clinging on)...the crazy mix of uncontrolled, mass levels of predatory critters (some of which our rivers have never seen before)...and you have a recipe for disaster.
I may well be wrong, this may be all 'doom and gloom' nonsense....but we will see. Or rather, you youngsters will see...I am hoping my fishing remains reasonable until I am too old to worry....next week perhaps :D:D:D

Cheers, Dave.
 
Ash Gould said:
Good rant that Rhys. Im just glad Roach anglers didn’t want to kill barbel in the same way barbel anglers want to kill otters for interfering with what they perceive as the right balance!

The otters re-inroduction is a conservation success. The predator prey balance that everybody keeps refering to relies on prey species ability to succesfully breed- in huge numbers. Fish are not breeding in large enough numbers to keep their populations up THAT is the problem, not the predator.

Being at the top of the pyramid Otters will have lots of scope to survive and thrive. It is that simple.

Anglers should look to address the root cause of the problem, which to me, is why cant fish breed in many of our rivers any more? Perhaps they are too sterile?
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Not sure if I can agree totally with that Ash. Before the proliferation of otters, there was a proliferation of chub in the Ouse, they were regarded as 'nuisance fish'. Yes the barbel population was declining, small to medium sized fish becoming rarer, I agree but, the chub stocks were very stable, with all year classes in a very healthy state.

I don't think we anglers are in the position to address the problem, we are just anglers, most non anglers don't see the point in angling at all. We're pretty toothless and carry little weight.

I was so so hoping that one of the many cameras monitoring for this years spring watch, would have caught an otter attacking those bitterns, just to open the eyes of joe public, as to just how much damage these critters are doing across the board.

Also, specimen barbel and roach have lived side by side, for as long as I can remember. Many swims I used to fish on the BA contained specimens of both species, thus making it possible to trot successfully for both species, with beefed up float gear.
 
Dave, you put my attitude so well it coulda been my post,
as far as i can see at the ripe age of 68 i say killem wherever ya can and to hell with the authorities :mad:
old enough to know better but too old to care
 
went to weston on the upper trent wednesday been there about an hour when i saw an otter just up river of me, then about ten minutes later a 2-3lbs barbel came floating downriver with its guts ripped out. I didnt realise otters were that far north.
 
John Walker said:
Dave, you put my attitude so well it coulda been my post,
as far as i can see at the ripe age of 68 i say killem wherever ya can and to hell with the authorities :mad:
old enough to know better but too old to care
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That would put anglers at odds with society,let alone the law. What your age has to do with anything I don't know, but with age normally comes wisdom.
To suggest that course of action on here in my opinion is reckless to say the least. Think what the fallout would be? Not the first time you have made such comments John, if you care about our sport I reckon you might want to think before you go make such comments, I am aware you might be conditioned to such matters with your work, but taking the law into our own hands and slaughtering the poster boy of British wildlife would possibly not be the brightest idea.:rolleyes:
 
Chris Guy said:
Not sure if I can agree totally with that Ash. Before the proliferation of otters, there was a proliferation of chub in the Ouse, they were regarded as 'nuisance fish'. Yes the barbel population was declining, small to medium sized fish becoming rarer, I agree but, the chub stocks were very stable, with all year classes in a very healthy state.

I don't think we anglers are in the position to address the problem, we are just anglers, most non anglers don't see the point in angling at all. We're pretty toothless and carry little weight.

I was so so hoping that one of the many cameras monitoring for this years spring watch, would have caught an otter attacking those bitterns, just to open the eyes of joe public, as to just how much damage these critters are doing across the board.

Also, specimen barbel and roach have lived side by side, for as long as I can remember. Many swims I used to fish on the BA contained specimens of both species, thus making it possible to trot successfully for both species, with beefed up float gear.
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Chris, the barbel used to be prolific with all year classes just like the chub you are refering to. The chub are now doing what the barbel did, they (chub) being the dominant fish in the river are getting bigger but with a dying population.

I also remember nearly 10 years ago in the Bell garden when you were saying how much the rivers had declined and Im pretty sure that was before people were balming otters for 9/11.
 
Andrew Richardson said:
went to weston on the upper trent wednesday been there about an hour when i saw an otter just up river of me, then about ten minutes later a 2-3lbs barbel came floating downriver with its guts ripped out. I didnt realise otters were that far north.
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They are a lot further north than that and, in many cases, never disappeared from several more northerly rivers.
 
Neil, its a lot better than moaning about no decent fish left a few years later, surely you,ll remember the devastation the cormorants did to the rivers silverfish stock, ear nigh killed off river matches,
kill em now, who cares about the public they wont care if our rivers are devastated and void of decent sized fish:mad:
ps. nothing personal meant Neil:)
 
John Walker said:
Neil, its a lot better than moaning about no decent fish left a few years later, surely you,ll remember the devastation the cormorants did to the rivers silverfish stock, ear nigh killed off river matches,
kill em now, who cares about the public they wont care if our rivers are devastated and void of decent sized fish:mad:
ps. nothing personal meant Neil:)
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None taken John,

Believe me I am as concerned as anyone as to the demise of our small rivers, especially as I love small River fishing, but taking the law into our own hands will do more damage to our sport than any amount of Otters could do.

Every cloud John...the talk on here is that the Barbel look healthier and fitter this summer, maybe just maybe :rolleyes: nature has it's own fix on things, and if there is an in-balance 'she' will put things right, it only goes wrong when man intervenes as with the more serious problem with Signal Cray's, at least the Otter is indigenous.

You mentioned match fishing, with respect hardly the best body to talk to when it comes to conservation I think, the attitude mostly is if it eats 'our' silvers then it has to die, as in Pike or Zander, as you know these preds are crucial, well Pike anyway, to the 'balance' of any fishery, maybe just maybe the Otter will do some good in the long run, perhaps I am too much an optimist, but I do know clubbing Otter cubs to death will be the death knell to our sport, and I think you know it too :rolleyes:

A little aside...my lads told me last night the front man of Metallica likes to hunt Bear in Russia, and has drawn a shed load of criticism from the 'Glasto' Liberals, to such an extent he was almost withdrawn, the public are not daft,
hunting is a viewed as vile in this country, we are on thin ice as it is, let's not fan the flames by advocating killing the ahhhh..ter:)
 
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