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Otter Devestation??

David Gauntlett said:
Why do you persist in repeating incorrect statements like the above Andrew? I have already answered your nonsense above in a previous post on this thread, but as your attention span seems every bit as bad as your maths...I will repeat my reply, in an easy to understand format.

I NEVER said my local stretch had been devastated by otters...that is complete bunkum on your part. In the thread you are incorrectly quoting from, I said that there were reports of otter sightings in another stretch not far from mine, and so was dreading them spreading from there to my stretch. As I said before, it never happened....either the sightings were of incorrectly identified mink, or were mischievous rumour spreading...I have no idea. I am just glad it was a false alarm.

Again, as I said before, my stretch lies within an extremely popular water park with full public access. I was fishing there from midnight last night...(had a 10,08...I am sure you are very happy for me) It is the local (and not just local) dog walkers paradise (and toilet) they NEVER bother to clear up after their dogs, and there are literally thousands of them walked and 'good boy-ed' every time they poo there every week. You are lucky to find a poo free swim. The reason I tell you this is that I have been reliably informed that otters will not take up residence in such an area....because of the numbers of humans there on a regular basis, and because of the stench of their nemesis (dogs) poo....so at least they have taste :D:D. Before I left today, dogs tried to steal my bait on AT LEAST a dozen different occasions....fact....and pretty par for the course 6<9 months of the year.

As for the 'new record'....it may....or may not be a fact. The original record (held by a friend of mine) was only a few ounces lighter than the weight currently being claimed as the new one. I am not for one moment suggesting that there was any deliberate attempt at deception, but nothing was proven about this one, no scales checked or any of the other proofs of accuracy. So...a few ounces either way? who knows...it may, or may not, be so.

Either way, I fail to see what the fact that it has produced larger fish than your local....has to do with anything. Other than that you lot need to practice more :D:D

On a serious note...it is the very fact that my local has a healthy and happily breeding stock of barbel, with NO recruitment problems...and capable of producing the glorious specimens you refer to....which has me so worried about otters. It is a tiny, shallowish (very shallow in many parts) river...the very type of river otters utterly destroy if they move in. Not because they are 'sick old fish on their last legs anyway' and all the other tosh you spout as excuses for the otter devastation that occurs in such rivers if they move in. It is because the rivers are tiny...the fish have nowhere to hide, nowhere to escape to...it's like a turkey shoot for the otters. They, much like foxes in a chicken coop, kill virtually every fish, eat a tiny part of them, then move on to pastures new.

Am I REALLY supposed to be happy if that does happen? Seriously? Just smile ruefully and say 'ah well, it's just one of those things, never mind?' Because that seems to be what you and others are saying. I just trust in luck and the dog poo theory, fingers crossed and all that. I can send you some if it works.....in fact I'd love to, lol.


Cheers, Dave
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Dave just what is the matter with you;) you managed to catch an extinct creature, and yet you find something else to have a moan about in dogs, dog sh1te and their owners, you really are impossible to please, you can go fishing in this wonderful county of ours, yes wonderful Dave, without the fear of being rounded up and shot just yet,:rolleyes:

I was out to-day, well this morning at the crack of dawn, and spooked a Red Deer, watched Kingfisher dart up and down the River, all to the chorus of a Cuckoo, and the guy that was in 'my' peg was having a great time he just had his sixth, Carling Export, all before 8am :eek: and was intending to crack open a few more too, he knew nothing of Otters, and very little about fishing, but was happy, a lesson we can all learn I guess.

Take a 6 pack:rolleyes:

Me? two chub, but happy:)
 
Lee Fletcher said:
I liked your last post Dave, in fact I liked them all.

We are specimen anglers. How are we supposed to feel or react if we see our stretches of river become devoid of specimen sized fish? Even Steve Pope refers to the "doom and gloom" syndrome in relation to the otter predation issue. I wonder what Steve will think if his guiding venues come under otter attack to the point where there are no big fish left? The thing is, most will not react if they are not facing the total demise of big fish along their rivers. I call that the "I'm alright Jack" syndrome. And fair enough, there will be anglers who are fine about loosing their big fish if it means the otter revival continues.

But going back to the issue itself without sitting in the for or against camp. Political angling, as in the AT, are not looking at the bigger picture in regards to otter predation. We need to stop looking inwards to how this issue if effecting our sport but look how it "might" be effecting other wildlife. We must remember that the otter being an apex predator does not just predate on fish alone. In order to present a case to the general public that will hold up to scrutiny we have to tell the whole story. Photographs of emaciated quarter eaten fish should only form part of the evidence. We need evidence of other otter predation. Predation upon creatures that the general public also have an affiliation with. Presently we are painting a picture of otter predation that the general public "accepts" as being normal. Otters eat fish so what? They might take a different view if we could offer up evidence say of partly eaten Jemima Puddle Duck and her chicks or Ratty the water vole. Throw in a few rare breeding birds like the Bittern, Silts, Water Rail or the Harriers to get the RSPB to stand up and take notice. And even if they don't get their membership to take notice once we have the evidence.

Evidence. That's the crucial aspect. There are no sections within the UK population that frequent watery places more than anglers. There are no stretches of freshwater in this country that come under bigger control than that of our fishing clubs. Our fishing clubs and their members are the key because it is they who can gather the evidence, not just about otter predation on fish but other species of wildlife as well.

We are a nation that cares about wildlife. A nation brimmed full of wildlife organisations. If an environment truly sustains otters fine. If it doesn't move the otters to an environment which does. None of this is rocket science but it does require some traditional wildlife management. And management is what it will come to in the end so why not begin to get it right now?
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We are specimen Anglers we are supposed to have more rights than Otters do we?

If that was the case I would probably give up Angling altogether, so it's a bit harder, tough, the river I fished to day was teeming with fish life, not Barbel climbing up the line , but that's not the real issue.
 
Alex Gowney said:
Yes Andrew, devastated, in the case of the Cherwell and Windrush. Go and try to catch a barbel on either of them and maybe you will understand what we mean.
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I fished the Cherwell last season as my missus works for a company based in Biscester and makes regular visits down that way. Agreed to tag a long as long as I could fish. Asked a few polite questions to some of this forums members and one or two others - net result 2 Barbel on my first visit. Lovely little river - horrendous Signal Crayfish problems though.

David Gauntlett said:
On a serious note...it is the very fact that my local has a healthy and happily breeding stock of barbel, with NO recruitment problems...and capable of producing the glorious specimens you refer to....which has me so worried about otters. It is a tiny, shallowish (very shallow in many parts) river...the very type of river otters utterly destroy if they move in. Not because they are 'sick old fish on their last legs anyway' and all the other tosh you spout as excuses for the otter devastation that occurs in such rivers if they move in. It is because the rivers are tiny...the fish have nowhere to hide, nowhere to escape to...it's like a turkey shoot for the otters. They, much like foxes in a chicken coop, kill virtually every fish, eat a tiny part of them, then move on to pastures new.

Cheers, Dave
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If your river has healthy breeding stocks of fish I doubt you have much to worry about Dave. Apologies for my short attention span but I do get rather bored with threads like this. Feel free to post me some Dog droppings if it makes you feel better. Your view on Otter behaviour is somewhat tainted by the outspoken few on here but never mind - carry on campaigning for a cull of the most popular aquatic mammal in the country if you want. Strange that at the start of the thread you were warning others to be carefull of what is said on forums with regards to Otters yet by the end of it you fear for your river! What would you like to see done with regards to Otters Dave - kill any within 40 miles of your local - or perhaps you could tolerate one or two?! A campaign for the cull of Otters would take years to complete - much like the work to improve habitats to the point when they could sustain them anyway - so why not go down that route instead of putting anglers in direct conflict with everyone else who has an interest in our rivers?
 
John Walker said:
correct Lee and if i find any within reach i do some of my own management with a club and i aint talkin fishing club, more like a good stout blackthorn with a heavy rootball:)
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It's the only way if you want action now John. Saying that, you've more chance of hitting the euro millions jackpot than getting an Otter within range of a swing. Thee'l need t'shotgun - both barrels!
Apart from John who else is hoping to club an Otter to death this season?
 
Andrew Boyne said:
It's the only way if you want action now John. Saying that, you've more chance of hitting the euro millions jackpot than getting an Otter within range of a swing. Thee'l need t'shotgun - both barrels!
Apart from John who else is hoping to club an Otter to death this season?[/QUOTE]




Very provocative sentence, EVERYONE has a right to THEIR views, they may be different to your own but are just as valid.

I would like to see otters controlled, I know its not going to happen legally but it is happening like it or not, it will continue until some sort of legal control happens.
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Neil, you really do have things confused don't you? I will ignore your first rather odd reply to my post, on the assumption that you had taken your own advice and imbibed in a drink or three.

Instead, I will draw your attention to your reply to Lee's post. You say and I quote "We are specimen Anglers we are supposed to have more rights than Otters do we?

Explain to me exactly what 'rights' it is you are talking about Neil? What rights do you assume the otter has? Please don't just repeat the stuff you have read in the nature glossies, but tell me exactly what these 'rights' are, and who/what it was that gave otters these rights.

They are the apex predators on our waterways it's true, which means that they will kill anything they come across, right? And yes, our current rulers, in their infinite wisdom, have granted them total protection...but that doesn't infer 'rights', it just means that we are not allowed to interfere with them in any way...for now.

Like it or not Neil, we, mankind....are THE ultimate apex predator. We have awarded ourselves the right to kill absolutely anything we wish to. If we (I use the 'royal we' to please you here Neil) decide at some stage that otters, or ANY other critters come to that, are not wanted....then they will be destroyed. That is how we have run this world since we stood up and walked on two legs. In real terms, otters, or any other animals....have NO rights, none whatsoever. They may have temporary protection in law, depending on the fickle, ever changing, vote catching whims of whatever government is in power at any given time...but they DON'T have rights mate. That is the bare, unadorned reality of life Neil. It is fact, like it or not.

Cheers, Dave.
 
Andrew Boyne said:
If your river has healthy breeding stocks of fish I doubt you have much to worry about Dave. Apologies for my short attention span but I do get rather bored with threads like this. Feel free to post me some Dog droppings if it makes you feel better. Your view on Otter behaviour is somewhat tainted by the outspoken few on here but never mind - carry on campaigning for a cull of the most popular aquatic mammal in the country if you want. Strange that at the start of the thread you were warning others to be carefull of what is said on forums with regards to Otters yet by the end of it you fear for your river! What would you like to see done with regards to Otters Dave - kill any within 40 miles of your local - or perhaps you could tolerate one or two?! A campaign for the cull of Otters would take years to complete - much like the work to improve habitats to the point when they could sustain them anyway - so why not go down that route instead of putting anglers in direct conflict with everyone else who has an interest in our rivers?
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Andrew....if the large brood fish in a system are wiped out by otters...then that system will no longer have a 'healthy breading stock' will it...that's the whole point. Then if the cormorants wipe out the smaller fish as they grow on, and the MASSIVE and growing crayfish population that has been gifted to us by the connected GU canal eat what pathetic amounts of spawn those immature fish do manage....then the river doesn't stand much chance. You seem to consistently and habitually miss the main points of other folks arguments.

My local is TINY, OK? It can and does manage to sustain a barbel population, despite the best efforts of the cormorants and occasional mink..although they have decimated the roach and dace populations. The growing crayfish population is another matter. They have only been present in the numbers we are seeing now for two or three years, so the jury is still out on the eventual outcome of that one if they continue increasing at the same rate....but we are employing professional trappers...and hope that will work out. Whatever....that will all come to nothing if otters move in on a river the size of my local...that has been demonstrated before, and no doubt will be again.

You are right about my starting this thread by warning others about the need to take care about publishing pictures of part eaten barbel and so on. As I said in that post, we have no proof of what actually killed that fish, so in my opinion, to bandy it about risks it being seen by 'others' as inflammatory, and used against us in the future. We need a logical, measured approach to this issue. You may not see the posts that I enter as falling into that category...but that would only be your opinion, and there are many who would disagree with that.

Would I like to see any otters within 40 miles of my river killed Andrew? No, certainly not. I do believe otter numbers should be controlled, but not necessarily by killing any of the current animals. There are obviously means of scientifically limiting their reproduction rate, keeping numbers at manageable levels until our rivers ARE capable of sustaining their natural predations. Equally, there will be a way of scientifically rendering the banks of any waterway unpalatable to otters (those where they would do irreparable harm due to size, or enclosed commercial fisheries for instance). The dog poo thing may...or may not, be a effective in that way. However, there will be something that WILL work, of that you can be sure. It doesn't need to kill or injure them, just make it not to their liking in some way. It just requires the government to urge the scientific community that the research needed is necessary. It may even be that these things are already in existence, if we are really lucky.

Control is the name of the game in my opinion...they are a joy to behold, and they should exist...but should NOT be allowed to breed beyond the levels sustainable by the waterways they inhabit. To be allowed to decimate and quite possibly wipe out other creatures (I am not just talking about barbel here), even those with similar protected status as themselves (think water vole for instance) merely because they have the 'aaaah' factor and have become 'the chosen ones'....would be illogical...and plain WRONG. Simple as.

Mind you, you are right about the need to work on our rivers, to improve them, bring them back to suitable habitats for all those critters that once lived there. That undeniably IS the way forward. But, until we arrive at that happy state, can we not take steps to avoid the inevitable mayhem that uncontrolled number of otters will bring about...while things are in their current state?

Cheers, Dave.
 
Crayfish eh Dave? I hope for your rivers sake the trapping is successful but as it's normally not now I fear for your river. If their numbers increase to plague proportions like they have on some rivers the likelihood of any eggs surviving to fry stage will be minimal. In time as the brood stock dies off with age, and with nothing coming through, your fish stocks will crash. Your river could be finished without ever seeing an Otter. In the mean time you might find some of those fish reaching epic proportions on their new high protein diet - make hay and all that! They've been in the upper reaches of my local for well over a decade but have not spread through the system thankfully. I think this is mainly due to the habitat being unsuitable on much of the river as the channel is 90% bedrock and gravel which is not to the liking of this burrowing little monster.
You mentioned Water Voles in your post as being in danger from predation by Otters. While I've no doubt a Vole would make a nice light snack if an Otter could be bothered to chase one it is largely accepted that the return of the Otter to many of our rivers is actually benefitting our Vole populations due to the Otters driving out the Mink which is a much more active predator of rodents.
I'm glad you clarified your position on 'control' as it's apparent when that term is used by some members what they actually mean is 'eliminate'. Being a territorial animal there is no need to control their numbers as they actively do that themselves - the Otters on my local breed successfully every year but we aren't over run with the things! The young are reared and then 'encouraged' to find territories of their own. Any intruders from elsewhere are either chased away or killed.
 
Double nightmare getting rid of crayfish on certain parts as to the traps get stolen.
 
Whilst not specifically focussing on the Otter situation, there is a good article in the Angler's Mail this week that shares some interesting facts about barbel behaviour and habitat from a report prepared by Bournemouth University (a report jointly funded by the Barbel Society and the EA). After speaking to Pete Reading about it, the intention is to put a link to the full report on the BS website. It's insightful stuff and a start at least.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Gowney View Post
Yes Andrew, devastated, in the case of the Cherwell and Windrush. Go and try to catch a barbel on either of them and maybe you will understand what we mean.

I fished the Cherwell last season as my missus works for a company based in Biscester and makes regular visits down that way. Agreed to tag a long as long as I could fish. Asked a few polite questions to some of this forums members and one or two others - net result 2 Barbel on my first visit. Lovely little river - horrendous Signal Crayfish problems though.

Well done Andrew, good result, maybe there is a light at the end of the tunnel. You are right about the crayfish though, the Cherwell seems to be the worst of all the Thames Valley rivers. I wish the trapper from the Kennet would set up shop!
As a matter of interest, did you see many chub?
 
Alex, I honestly don't think the issues we have are down to any one of the 'usual suspects', I think it is the combination that is the major problem. Otters, crays and cormorants together add up to a lethal cocktail, the predator/prey imbalance I keep banging on about.

Otters are possibly top of the list, because they, all on their own, can wipe out a small river/lake in an incredibly short time. Cormorants are also a serious problem, because they can do the same where smaller fish are concerned (although looking at some of the photos on offer, it is astonishing just how big a fish they can swallow!) Lastly, the various species of non indigenous crayfish we now have are as yet an unknown quantity...we have not experienced the effects they MAY have, given their current population density, over extended periods. That MAY be scary too.

Whatever, in my opinion, it is this combination of predators, some of which are in never before seen numbers, others being species completely alien to our waters...that are the major problem. It is a combination that attacks our fish at every stage of their development, from the egg to adulthood...and the population density these beasties are now at...is one that nature never intended our fish to be faced with.

Cheers, Dave.
 
Alex Gowney said:
Quote:
Well done Andrew, good result, maybe there is a light at the end of the tunnel. You are right about the crayfish though, the Cherwell seems to be the worst of all the Thames Valley rivers. I wish the trapper from the Kennet would set up shop!
As a matter of interest, did you see many chub?
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The worst infestation I've ever experienced and I pity you guys who have to fish rivers like that on a regular basis. I'd take Otters any day of the week over them horrible things and that is no joke. On the chub front, during a recon trip the closed season before last there was the most incredible hatch of Mayfly I have ever seen - literally clouds of them! The Chub were on them, as you would expect and I saw what I would consider good numbers for the size of river ( all relative of coarse and it's grim up north you know )! We're talking pockets of 5 or 6 in a group, the most maybe a dozen - some good sized fish too. I still can't get my head around that hatch - presumably Signals don't eat Mayfly larvae!
 
David Gauntlett said:
Otters are possibly top of the list, because they, all on their own, can wipe out a small river/lake in an incredibly short time. Cormorants are also a serious problem, because they can do the same where smaller fish are concerned (although looking at some of the photos on offer, it is astonishing just how big a fish they can swallow!) Lastly, the various species of non indigenous crayfish we now have are as yet an unknown quantity...we have not experienced the effects they MAY have, given their current population density, over extended periods. That MAY be scary too.

Whatever, in my opinion, it is this combination of predators, some of which are in never before seen numbers, others being species completely alien to our waters...that are the major problem. It is a combination that attacks our fish at every stage of their development, from the egg to adulthood...and the population density these beasties are now at...is one that nature never intended our fish to be faced with.

Cheers, Dave.
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Nature did not intend the poor water quality or for the river channels to be managed to suit our needs or the water to be extracted either. It's a right bloody mess when you look at it! Crayfish are a massive problem and for me one of the major players in the demise of some rivers. It's no coincidence that on almost if not all rivers that have suffered major fish stock declines - signal crayfish are established. It's strange to consider that for a while perhaps they benefited the fishing - by eating all the fish eggs there was nothing coming through in the way of competition for food for the adult brood stock and in turn the crays themselves were a high protein food source which has seen specimen fish of many river species hit epic proportions. The outcome was/is inevitable though - without any recruitment, once the brood stock dies off with age you're left with nothing but a river full of Signals. Predators will obviously speed up the process but even if you shot every Otter, Mink, Seal, Goosander, Cormorant, Heron, Kingfisher, Osprey whatever - the result would still be the same. I think many anglers look to blame the Otters and Cormorants because they can see a way to solve the problem - if you take out one or two Otters on your stretch of river, and maybe a dozen Cormorants then you've pretty much cracked it - and probably solved the problem on many adjacent stretches while you were at it - as far as predation is concerned anyway. It's a short term fix, might make a few people feel a bit better to have killed off the enemy - but it doesn't fix the major issues with our rivers and won't solve the fish stock crisis many of our rivers face. I believe the saying is - Treat the cause, not the symptoms.
 
Andrew, spot on.
When I can find the time to travel, I love to fish the Dove.
Never caught small fish but I have caught Signal Crayfish and their presence is always frequent.
I do wonder what happens when these brood fish are gone. It is quality fish at the moment but I wonder about the future on this river as there seem to be no smaller fish to come through, perhaps for the reason you mention.
 
Regarding the Thames and it's tributaries the signal is undoubtedly the number one problem. Does anyone know what half wit was in charge of MAFF when permission to introduce these locusts was given?
 
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