• You need to be a registered member of Barbel Fishing World to post on these forums. Some of the forums are hidden from non-members. Please refer to the instructions on the ‘Register’ page for details of how to join the new incarnation of BFW...

guiding day with matt hayes

Status
Not open for further replies.
Hi Jez - with your record on the Goyt, I have a feeling that you'd do ok on any river in the right conditions and it contains barbel in the stretch you're fishing. You've started a little controversy here but, in summary, it seems most agree with you. I certainly do. Still, it was nice of him to get back to you after all this time.....perhaps the bookings have dried up, for February. It's the recession you know :)
 
Hi Simon
You are indeed lucky to be able to work with such animals...but lets not kid ourselves that be it snakes chimps or ant 'true' non domesticated animal then the only place for such is in the wild.
Your pictures I am afraid only reinforce my view, to 'humanise' animals to promote products is not for me thanks, but I am sure you treat them in a excellent manner.
Just my views you undertand for the sake of a bit of balance.


Neil, I respect your view and I think Graham's follow-up post hits the nail on the head.

Humans have been anthropomorphising since civilisation began, (animal deities) and the bigger our brains get, the more we seem to see everything only in terms of ourselves, as though we are no longer a part of the "animal kingdom".

Without doubt, the biggest threat to all species across the planet is habitat destruction, whether deforestation or oceanic pollution. Species are disappearing faster than they can be catalogued.

On one level my work is mundane in supplying companion animals for human benefit or "art and entertainment" as in the photos.

On another level, as Graham points at, it also brings a hands-on experience, improved knowledge and awareness to a mass of humanity who would otherwise not even think about the world outside their own "home comforts".

I breed many of my own animals, several have been UK "firsts" for those species. A number of them are CITES-listed endangered species. Behind the scenes, over the years, I have lectured to veterinary students and nurses at the Royal Veterinary College, contributed to academic studies on amphibian toxins and reptile parasites (for which efforts I had an organism named after me :cool:), written husbandry articles for Reptile Magazines, contributed to National Geographic and Euston Films (Nature Documentaries) as well as nature awareness art exhibitions at the likes of Whitechapel Arts Gallery and Camberwell Art Centre; hosted childrens parties at my shop (to help them learn an early age respect for these creatures), contributed to psychology programmes to help people overcome their phobias; participated in numerous TV and radio debates from Newsnight to Blue Peter to The Big Breakfast (where one of my frogs memorably leapt out of my hands straight into Ant or was it Dec's face? :D) and an awful lot more I can't be bothered to recall.

I always approach my work as the interface between curiosity/ ignorance hopefully becoming respect/fascination.

The sheer volume of Urban Myth that surrounds animals in general (not just my specialist area of reptiles and fish) is unbelievable. Some, but not that much coming from the Animal Rights movement, whom I have also lectured on.

You're right though, it is a great privilige to be in my position, but I try to put something back in to educate the next generation at the same time.

As far as "humanising animals for product promotion" is concerned, I really don't have a problem with it as it's a continual reminder to people that there are other living things besides ourselves. I don't like the (rare) crossovers from film/TV like Ninja Turtles, where an ill-advised craze develops for the animal in question, but this is usually brought on by the demands of the kids themselves, subsequently fuelled by the media, which could be stopped in its tracks if suppliers had a conscience. Unfortunately they don't. But that's humans for you? It's rare though, as I say.
 
Matty

None of the stuff I do is "acts with animals", it's for actors "acting with animals" or models "modelling". They're not made to do anything they wouldn't normally do I'm not a circus.

As far as the PG Chimps are concerned, they all regard what they did as great "fun" and it was structured that way in order not to stress them.
You get a "happy" chimp or an "angry" one. Guess which one's easiest to work with? :p

Chimps, like most animals, do not understand the concept of being "humiliated". They leave the higher ethical dilemmas to us. And we struggle with them. ;)

You seem to forget that Mr Hayes' "job" is to stick hooks in fish. And all of those "trophy shots" we anglers take..........?

Let's keep this in perspective? :)

View attachment 569

View attachment 570

View attachment 571

Is the third photo, you have to ask yourself, is the snake enjoying itself entwined around that dish? I doubt it. I can understand most on BFW enjoying this experience because they are human. The snake, well it probably doesn't do much for it, just as though it wouldn't do much for me if I were entwined around a snake. As for the chimps being humilliated, it is in our eyes that animals are humliated, like watching elephants wearing hats in a circus carrying out demeaning acts. I'm sure that they would consider this much more fun than being free to roam. And I don't think that fish like having hooks stuck in them and this is pretty obvious to me during and after removal of the hook when fishing catch and release of trout. We can always interpret things in a way to suit our own needs. I heard once, from a well respected figure in the hunting fraternity, that foxes enjoy the chase of the hunt, and Basil Brush whispered in my ear that this was indeed true. I'll always enjoy fishing, I don't kid myself that there is no degree of distress from the fish's perspective, but as responsible anglers we all seek to minimise this by resting the fish etc etc. Speaking of trophy shots, can't remember when I last took one. Sorry, we/I have drifted some way from Matty's day rates. Maybe Matty could arrange for a couple of chimps to do his fishing and thereby quadruple his rates.
 
has anyone ever been guided my matt ? otherwise seems a bit wrong to jump to conclusions on how do or not he may be ....
 
I watch MH every now and then and find it very light hearted and may i say it, informative. Thats my opinion, but i can see the side of novices and people who actually really like the bloke and would like to fulfill a session with Matt, for themselves or there son/daughter.

Well done Matt, your a hero to some and not others
 
I like his shows, its a shame discover won't fund anymore series and he has to do these semi-fishing semi-selling dvds. none of the quality is lost, just a lot of plugging !!
 
Is the third photo, you have to ask yourself, is the snake enjoying itself entwined around that dish? I doubt it. I can understand most on BFW enjoying this experience because they are human. The snake, well it probably doesn't do much for it, just as though it wouldn't do much for me if I were entwined around a snake.


I didn't think it wise to incur the censorship of the BFW Mods by posting the more "revealing" photos on that shoot. ;)

The snakes, being ectotherms, were perfectly at ease being draped across a warm, unthreatening body that to them is like a warm rock. Except a little softer and more comfortably moulded, of course. Perhaps you can now consider yourself a little more "educated" in the subject of snakes and what they percieve? The word "enjoying" is anthropomorphic and entirely innapplicable.



As for the chimps being humilliated, it is in our eyes that animals are humliated, like watching elephants wearing hats in a circus carrying out demeaning acts. I'm sure that they would consider this much more fun than being free to roam.


In both examples, the animals are trained for the "act" by a system of rewards. If they were unduly stressed (both being relatively intelligent creatures) they wouldn't do it. Dolphins' acrobatics, likewise.
There's a well-known story of an elephant that battered its keeper when he tried to get it to smoke a cigarette.

While I'm not condoning animals being coerced into doing artificial "tricks" just for our entertainment, you should bear in mind that the "wild" existence for every living species is the ultimate in stress. Literally life or death from any quarter at any second. This is evolutions "driver" of course, but it's worth bearing in mind.
Better a chimp drinking tea, or being slaughtered for bush-meat?
Better an elephant wearing a hat, or being slaughtered for its tusks?
Better a snake draped over a pretty girl, or being slaughtered so its blood can be drunk as quack chinese medicine?

None of the above are taken from the wild, they're commonly bred in captivity and have no concept of a yearned-for "wild" existence they've never known.

QUOTE]
 
Simon thank you for that very informative reply. You are really living my dream you know, I have had a fascination with all manner of animals since I was knee high to a grass hopper. My parents could testify to the fact that I spoiled most of a days holiday in Torquay insisting we take an injured seagull to a vet, we did.

After a couple of unsucessful attempts as a young man to settle into a job after leaving school I joined the RAF Police not because I had any desire to become a Policeman, but the chance to work with Dogs as a Police Dog Handler. And so it was, and the training I was given then was second to none, if anyone was in doubt that dogs did not enjoy working should have seen the RAF Demonstration team, they lapped it up. Many years on I am still in awe of a domesticated dogs prowess and skills that are not fully appreciated by many.

I have not had the chance to do what I suppose more than anything I crave, to spend some time with a Chimpanzee, now that would be awesome:p.

You are obviously very skilled and knowledgable about the Animal psyche, and have a real passion for what you do..

Apologies to Matt...we are really of track:)
 
I'm sure nobody minds? :)

I started life like this......................

Simon & Caesar1962a.jpg


And ended up like this.


Boa1.jpg

Green Tree monitors.jpg

All I lost along the way was the blonde curls.

So much for my careers advisor. :)
 
If you want value for money and loads of differing approaches get out on a BFW fish in :) lots of guys only too willing to help or show their approach, hell some will even let you have a go with their rods ect if your thinking of getting new ones:) and the get together in the evening is great:)
 
Animal handling

Simon thank you for that very informative reply. You are really living my dream you know, I have had a fascination with all manner of animals since I was knee high to a grass hopper. My parents could testify to the fact that I spoiled most of a days holiday in Torquay insisting we take an injured seagull to a vet, we did.

After a couple of unsucessful attempts as a young man to settle into a job after leaving school I joined the RAF Police not because I had any desire to become a Policeman, but the chance to work with Dogs as a Police Dog Handler. And so it was, and the training I was given then was second to none, if anyone was in doubt that dogs did not enjoy working should have seen the RAF Demonstration team, they lapped it up. Many years on I am still in awe of a domesticated dogs prowess and skills that are not fully appreciated by many.

I have not had the chance to do what I suppose more than anything I crave, to spend some time with a Chimpanzee, now that would be awesome:p.

You are obviously very skilled and knowledgable about the Animal psyche, and have a real passion for what you do..

Apologies to Matt...we are really of track:)

There's no doubt that domesticated animals, and in particular dogs, enjoy a close relationship with humans. It's clear that police dogs and dogs in the services enjoy their work and similarly sheep dogs like what they do. Dogs have been domesticated for thousand of years. I can't see a chimp making a similar role for itself. They would be excellent climbers and this could be utilised for scanning from trees, getting in through open windows and all in all very useful in helping the police catch criminals. The problem is that chimps have not had the close relationship with humans that dogs have enjoyed over a long time span. I appreciate that there can be crash courses, and in WW2, dolphins were trained to put mines on enemy ships.
 
To get back on topic, I suppose a day with Matt Hayes would depend on what you are looking for. For sheer depth of knowledge (barbel) then Trefor West's days are an absolute bargain and it would be unlikely that most people, however experienced, would fail to learn something. With Matt Hayes it would seem a lot of the appeal is in how he comes across on TV, which is very well indeed and I feel he is entitled to charge accordingly. It's all about perception. Many people are horrifed at the thought of paying a builder £20 an hour yet think nothing of putting their car in a garage that may charge anything from £65 an hour upwards.
 
There's no doubt that domesticated animals, and in particular dogs, enjoy a close relationship with humans. It's clear that police dogs and dogs in the services enjoy their work and similarly sheep dogs like what they do. Dogs have been domesticated for thousand of years. I can't see a chimp making a similar role for itself. They would be excellent climbers and this could be utilised for scanning from trees, getting in through open windows and all in all very useful in helping the police catch criminals. The problem is that chimps have not had the close relationship with humans that dogs have enjoyed over a long time span. I appreciate that there can be crash courses, and in WW2, dolphins were trained to put mines on enemy ships.

Truth in a lot you say, and I would much prefer animals to be in thier natural surroundings, but remember the Victorians used to keep monkeys as pets, and I reckon that Apes such as Chimps are able to adapt better to domestication than alot of other species. Of course a fully grown male chimp is an awesome creature.
I used to keep tortoise(e) as a kid and those that could remember we could by them from our local pet shop for ten shillings, rarely did they last the first winter. Now of course you cant do that, and just as well, but we rarely thought about such things in those days. I have two dogs which is fine, but also a Cockatiel, we have had him over 20 years, he was rescued as all our 'pets' are, but I often wonder that that is no life for a bird like a Cockatiel, albeit he has a large cage, he has had no company of other birds, and indeed hates me, although I feed/change him, he only has eyes for the missus:p
I could not go to a Circus these days, and also Zoos make me feel uneasy about the welfare of the animals, but it is a fine line, I share the fascination of animals with many others, and enjoy the experience of learning from them.
What I do know is that being an Angler, there is nothing better than seeing the electric blue flash of a Kingfisher, the Barn Owl, water voles, and of course, well yes I suppose even the Otter...not to mention spell bound watching Barbel flashing in the gravels.
How lucky we are.
 
Don't get me wrong Matts a top angler and has put fishing on the map, but still could'nt justify them sort of prices rather spend the money on a couple of decent rods and reels. Much rather learn from books , video and the B.F.W lads theres alot more pleasure know you can catch on your own bat rather than an over paid guide.!!!!!!
 
I had an e-mail from a 'celeb' angler over 5 years ago where he said he wouldn't even get out of bed for less than £250, so £500 is probably about right now, considering the current cut backs people are being asked to make.

And to think I knew Matt when he was working for Pireelli :(
 
Last edited:
I used to keep tortoise(e) as a kid and those that could remember we could by them from our local pet shop for ten shillings, rarely did they last the first winter. Now of course you cant do that, QUOTE]



Actually, you can. Wild-caught Mediterranean Tortoises were banned from being traded in the EC in the early 80's, but they can still be bought if bred in captivity. I have some at the moment.
Each specimen offered must carry a CITES certificate with it as proof, older than 4 years and it must be microchipped.

The double irony is that wild-caught are still allowed to be traded outside Europe and they are not protected within most of their north african range as these countries are not signatories to CITES.

The reason most didn't survive is because they were boxed up (often in straw, which causes respiratory and eye problems) and put in innappropriate temperature ranges for hibernation e.g. cellars, lofts etc. Those from that era that are still alive and kicking are generally those that were given permanent free-range outdoors and allowed to bury themselves for Winter.

We had one too and yes, it died the first Winter. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
 
I used to keep tortoise(e) as a kid and those that could remember we could by them from our local pet shop for ten shillings, rarely did they last the first winter. Now of course you cant do that, QUOTE]



Actually, you can. Wild-caught Mediterranean Tortoises were banned from being traded in the EC in the early 80's, but they can still be bought if bred in captivity. I have some at the moment.
Each specimen offered must carry a CITES certificate with it as proof, older than 4 years and it must be microchipped.

The double irony is that wild-caught are still allowed to be traded outside Europe and they are not protected within most of their north african range as these countries are not signatories to CITES.

The reason most didn't survive is because they were boxed up (often in straw, which causes respiratory and eye problems) and put in innappropriate temperature ranges for hibernation e.g. cellars, lofts etc. Those from that era that are still alive and kicking are generally those that were given permanent free-range outdoors and allowed to bury themselves for Winter.

We had one too and yes, it died the first Winter. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I did have a vague understanding that there wasn't a blanket ban on tortoise imports, but thanks for explaining the detail. Certainly tortoise, if you can buy them, cost more than the original ten bob!
We had an older Tortoise (Malcolm) who was given to us by my then Brother in Law, he was big dude, (Malcolm), but succombed to the mice I am afraid whilst hibernating, that was a bad Spring day for me when I gingerly parted the hay.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top