Shaun Nurse
Senior Member
It`s good to see Howard, and we should all do our bit in whatever way we can, to make our rivers the best they can be. Put a little back into what we get so much out of. Will keep you posted on future developments.
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Otter Devestation??
- Thread starter Shaun Nurse
- Start date
David Gauntlett
Senior Member
Good for you Shaun. I tend to back out of threads when they reach the 'banging your head on a brick wall' scenario. Once it reaches the same folk repeating the same opinion over and over again stage, then it's pointless to go on.
Cheers, Dave.
Cheers, Dave.
Rhys Perry
Senior Member
Well that's just blown my mind!
Howard Cooke
Senior Member
You're not watching the opening ceremony of the World Cup then Rhys. There are people pretending to be trees and flowers. Oh hang on, perhaps I'm on the wrong channel and this is "An Introduction To Acting". Fingers crossed it gets better.
Pete Dalton
Senior Member
Yes some World Cup related discussions! I drew Equador in the Sweep Stake not good, looking forward to seeing Brazilian class tonight , it will tide me over until Monday... And when Stoke play again.
David Gauntlett
Senior Member
I don't see why Rhys. My post was merely pointing out that we were trading shots by using the same arguments we have used time and again, and not getting anywhere...as ever. Don't you find that boring? From you post above, apparently not...so I will continue, but with a slightly different slant on this, just for the hell of it
The basis of the situation you and I disagree on is this.....
In my opinion, a mixture of mind blowingly stupid stockings of several foreign species, coupled with a severe bout of muddy thinking and ill conceived legislation, foisted on us by our illustrious leaders (Those in this country and Europe) has brought about the situation whereby an undeniable super abundance of various predators is destroying the fishing for an awful lot of people. Not just for barbel, but for many species. Otters I see as the most immediate problem, because they can (and will) kill fish of every size, up to the biggest in the land...and every other inhabitant of our waters that comes within their grasp.
In your opinion, there are many other factors that are far worse that are degrading our fishing....pollution, over abstraction, silting up and so on, and it is THESE that need addressing. You claim that the predator problem is nothing new, that these predators are only natural and not actually a problem at all, that the effect they are having is being over stated. So leave the poor wee things alone.
Well.......we all KNOW that these problems you cite do need addressing Rhys. BUT....the pollution problem is something that has been affecting our fishing since before the industrial revolution, and our fish have, by and large, survived that all this time. Not only that, if official figures and statistics are to be believed, then it IS being dealt with...slowly but surely. Our rivers are supposedly cleaner now than they have been for a VERY long time, and we are told that this progress will continue.
As for the over abstraction and silting up....well, these are problem that will only increase as our population grows. The water our lakes and rivers hold is a finite amount, so if the population explodes (as it is doing), then that is a growing problem, isn't it? Yes we can build more reservoirs....but how many, and where? And if we also build the 250,000 new houses PER YEAR that we apparently require....just how much 'Natural England' (or Wales of course
) do you think will remain in a fairly short time? And the same issues will increase silting up too, because stripping the land of natural trees, plants etc. to build houses causes run off containing silt. (Now I hesitated before raising these points Rhys, because you will undoubtedly accuse me of 'Aimless ranting' again....but the problem is you see....it's not aimless at all, is it? Because it directly affects over abstraction and silting. AND...it will inevitably add to the pollution problem too. Still, don't let facts worry you old chap.)Whatever
, even if you ignore that last, the super abundance and variety of predators which is destroying the fishing for many people is NOW. This problem is NOT something our fish have survived for centuries...some of these predators are not even indigenous species, they are recent imports. The others are being boosted in numbers by 'cousins from abroad' and/or by over protection, and are now present in numbers that have NEVER been seen before. Our already challenged fish stocks CANNOT survive ever increasing numbers and varieties of predators....as the yanks would say 'do the math' Rhys. If you choose to ignore the population explosion as 'aimless ranting', then the problems you cite are actually gradually being resolved. Unlike the predator problem, which is in fact rapidly getting worse. Now that may not bother you Rhys...but it rather annoys me. Just how many small to medium rivers/lakes/fisheries being wiped out or at least reduced to a mere shadow of their former selves will it take before you will see it as a problem mate?
Cheers, Dave.
Darren Scott
Senior Member
I think Dave is cock on, the fish have never been under so much pressure from predators as they are today, and the Otters are wasteful in their behaviour and the only ones that can take the biggest fish in the river easily, fish that are 10/20 years old.
Us anglers have spent our money, bought our licences, payed for our club books and daytickets, the clubs have looked after the waters and improved the habitat and fish stocks for the last 40 years and now all that good work is under serious threat.
We need to start shouting louder.
Us anglers have spent our money, bought our licences, payed for our club books and daytickets, the clubs have looked after the waters and improved the habitat and fish stocks for the last 40 years and now all that good work is under serious threat.
We need to start shouting louder.
Neil Smart
Senior Member
Some footballers need no introduction to acting.
Graham Young
Senior Member
I don't see why Rhys. My post was merely pointing out that we were trading shots by using the same arguments we have used time and again, and not getting anywhere...as ever. Don't you find that boring? From you post above, apparently not...so I will continue, but with a slightly different slant on this, just for the hell of it
The basis of the situation you and I disagree on is this.....
In my opinion, a mixture of mind blowingly stupid stockings of several foreign species, coupled with a severe bout of muddy thinking and ill conceived legislation, foisted on us by our illustrious leaders (Those in this country and Europe) has brought about the situation whereby an undeniable super abundance of various predators is destroying the fishing for an awful lot of people. Not just for barbel, but for many species. Otters I see as the most immediate problem, because they can (and will) kill fish of every size, up to the biggest in the land...and every other inhabitant of our waters that comes within their grasp.
In your opinion, there are many other factors that are far worse that are degrading our fishing....pollution, over abstraction, silting up and so on, and it is THESE that need addressing. You claim that the predator problem is nothing new, that these predators are only natural and not actually a problem at all, that the effect they are having is being over stated. So leave the poor wee things alone.
Well.......we all KNOW that these problems you cite do need addressing Rhys. BUT....the pollution problem is something that has been affecting our fishing since before the industrial revolution, and our fish have, by and large, survived that all this time. Not only that, if official figures and statistics are to be believed, then it IS being dealt with...slowly but surely. Our rivers are supposedly cleaner now than they have been for a VERY long time, and we are told that this progress will continue.
As for the over abstraction and silting up....well, these are problem that will only increase as our population grows. The water our lakes and rivers hold is a finite amount, so if the population explodes (as it is doing), then that is a growing problem, isn't it? Yes we can build more reservoirs....but how many, and where? And if we also build the 250,000 new houses PER YEAR that we apparently require....just how much 'Natural England' (or Wales of course
Whatever
Now that may not bother you Rhys...but it rather annoys me. Just how many small to medium rivers/lakes/fisheries being wiped out or at least reduced to a mere shadow of their former selves will it take before you will see it as a problem mate?
Cheers, Dave.
Very good post Dave, because it contains an argument that IMO cannot be argued against because it is the truth, it will be interesting to see if anyone can.
John Walker
Senior Member
well, any i see in quiet areas will be rat food if i have my way,
sorry but my love of fishing comes 1st,
hmmm rat food !?
sorry but my love of fishing comes 1st,
hmmm rat food !?
Rhys Perry
Senior Member
I don't see why Rhys. My post was merely pointing out that we were trading shots by using the same arguments we have used time and again, and not getting anywhere...as ever. Don't you find that boring? From you post above, apparently not...so I will continue, but with a slightly different slant on this, just for the hell of it
Ah well I must apologize for that as I thought that your post was a classic case of pot calling the kettle black and was in fact aimed at those like myself who disagree with you on this matter. So yeah, sorry for misinterpreting your post as I actually agree with it now!
As for the rest, well I agree with a lot of that too, but it looks like you've somewhat misinterpreted me as I'm by no means against the control of ALL the predation that affects our waters, certainly those invasive species such as cormorants, mink and signals should be dealt with as they're not native species.
Otters however are native, they belong in our rivers, and I for one am happy to see them back. Seeing such a magnificent creature being bought back from the brink of extinction to such healthy, stable numbers today is something that should be applauded not vilified, as it's an example of what we can do to help other vulnerable species across the world, such as those you yourself highlighted in an earlier post. If this means I have to sacrifice a bit of easy fishing for something a bit more challenging, so be it, it is after all just a pointless bit of unnecessary fun.
Unfortunately many of my fellow fishermen would be more than happy to see them back on the endangered list, as John's pathetic post proves, so they can enjoy their easy fishing again, and this my major gripe when it comes to the subject of otters.
On to my other gripe. The other problems can be resolved, over time, habitats can be improved, fish, being quite prolific breeders, can be replenished or restocked, rivers can bounce back as the Thames and Trent, once devoid of life, proves. Simply getting rid of otters is not the answer, yet with the sheer number of otter threads, posts and the like, when compared to all the other issues facing our waters, you'd think it was the ONLY answer. So when along comes yet another otter bashing thread I think 'here we go again, I'm not getting involved!' then you get a post like 'I'll take a spade to the b***ards!' or some such rubbish and, admittedly, I can't help myself!
What gets me is that we're all aware that otters are pretty much untouchable, and I'd hope most are aware that solving the other problems would in turn solve the otter problem, yet still otters are top of everyone's hate list and they all cry out for something to be done yet largely ignore everything else.
As regards abstraction and over silting, I'd say it's more a case of bad farming practices than population growth, though that's still obviously a factor.
Anyway, now I'm ranting so I'll stop there for now!
Ash Gould
Senior Member
Good rant that Rhys. Im just glad Roach anglers didn’t want to kill barbel in the same way barbel anglers want to kill otters for interfering with what they perceive as the right balance!
The otters re-inroduction is a conservation success. The predator prey balance that everybody keeps refering to relies on prey species ability to succesfully breed- in huge numbers. Fish are not breeding in large enough numbers to keep their populations up THAT is the problem, not the predator.
Being at the top of the pyramid Otters will have lots of scope to survive and thrive. It is that simple.
Anglers should look to address the root cause of the problem, which to me, is why cant fish breed in many of our rivers any more? Perhaps they are too sterile?
The otters re-inroduction is a conservation success. The predator prey balance that everybody keeps refering to relies on prey species ability to succesfully breed- in huge numbers. Fish are not breeding in large enough numbers to keep their populations up THAT is the problem, not the predator.
Being at the top of the pyramid Otters will have lots of scope to survive and thrive. It is that simple.
Anglers should look to address the root cause of the problem, which to me, is why cant fish breed in many of our rivers any more? Perhaps they are too sterile?
Graham Young
Senior Member
I doubt that you have posted on this thread without mentioning "easy fishing" (I haven't checked) it seems to be a regular thing, is there any reason for this? are you against anglers having some "easy" fishing now and again? does it always have to be difficult for it to be ok? or is fishing a river where the otters have decimated the fish population to such an extent the only acceptable fishing?
As for your comment about Johns post, it was uncalled for, if that is his view he has every right to post it without insult, I agree with him by the way I suppose that makes this pathetic as well.
Rhys Perry
Senior Member
People are bemoaning the otter because they've made it harder to catch barbel, it's become less easy, hence my mention of it. Even with a balanced predator/prey situation I doubt the fishing on rivers will be as easy as it has been in the past as then it was unbalanced due to the almost total lack of predators. If people want easy fishing there are plenty of stocked still waters where you can pull fish in all day.
You can reduce anything in life to mere opinion and it's my mere opinion that to kill an otter because it's ruining your 'fun' is pretty pathetic.
I've made many pathetic opinions myself I'm not too proud off.
Not including that one!
You can reduce anything in life to mere opinion and it's my mere opinion that to kill an otter because it's ruining your 'fun' is pretty pathetic.
I've made many pathetic opinions myself I'm not too proud off.
Not including that one!
Graham Young
Senior Member
Rhys, the problems with our rivers that you rightly say need to be addressed are if ever going to be long term projects, abstraction IMO will never be sorted out more people= more water required, how do we get rid of things like Ethinyl Estradiol and other Estrogens that are dissolved in our water? do you think that the public would be prepared to cough up the estimated 37/42 billion to update all water treatment plants? pollutions will continue as they always have until stiff prison sentences are handed out which isn't going to happen, Crayfish devouring eggs, cormorants, the list goes on including Otters.
The problem with Otters is here now the damage they do is here now, the future for a lot of rivers looks very bleak, in your opinion what steps can be taken now to address the damage being done other than controlling Otter numbers?
The problem with Otters is here now the damage they do is here now, the future for a lot of rivers looks very bleak, in your opinion what steps can be taken now to address the damage being done other than controlling Otter numbers?
Dave Taylor
Senior Member
Good point Ash,
Although some Roach and match anglers did'nt mind culling a few Pike for interfering with their sport!
David Gauntlett
Senior Member
Rhys, fair enough mate. The pair of us see this problem (and it IS a problem) from very different perspectives. I really don't understand yours...so we shall just have to agree to disagree.
As for the 'easy fishing' thing that keeps being coughed up....do you not think that is just a 'buzz phrase', someone said it once, it sounded good, so now it keeps being repeated, despite the fact that it is actually meaningless? You say 'People are bemoaning the otter because they've made it harder to catch barbel, it's become less easy, hence my mention of it.' You later say 'If people want easy fishing there are plenty of stocked still waters where you can pull fish in all day'.
Do you not see that your last point there says it all? Those 'stocked still waters' have been there for years haven't they? So surely....the very fact that those who are complaining were not fishing these pools all along must mean that 'easy fishing' per se is NOT, and never was, what they want. All they want Rhys is to carry on catching barbel. The people who are complaining are not those fishing the big rivers, the prolific Wye and so on. Those guys are still catching fish, all be it in not the same numbers perhaps. No mate, the people complaining are the people fishing the Wensum, the upper Thames, the Oxfordshire rivers, and so on. These rivers were never 'easy'....but if you fished well, you could catch a barbel or two now and then, and on rare occasions you might even be blessed with a corker. But not now, their fish are mostly gone. Their barbel fishing is but a pale shadow of what it was, and in some instances, a thing of the past.
I fail to see how on earth you expect them to be happy with that situation, and more to the point....I fail to see why they should have to put up with it. Why is their right to fish for barbel in their local river, something they have been enjoying for years....of less value than the rights of those who wish to see the return of otters? I know it isn't as simple as that chap, but do you see my point? It may well not be otters that are entirely to blame....but by heck they must carry a big share of the blame. You just cannot tell folk who were seeing NO down turn in their fishing, until otters turned up in numbers...that the sudden and almost total collapse of their fishing is down to a strange coincidence. The otters just happened to turn up at precisely the same time as those other issues you mention, issues which these fish have survived for centuries.....suddenly and mysteriously killed them all off.
That would take a fairly large stretch of the imagination to swallow Rhys, wouldn't it?
Cheers, Dave.
As for the 'easy fishing' thing that keeps being coughed up....do you not think that is just a 'buzz phrase', someone said it once, it sounded good, so now it keeps being repeated, despite the fact that it is actually meaningless? You say 'People are bemoaning the otter because they've made it harder to catch barbel, it's become less easy, hence my mention of it.' You later say 'If people want easy fishing there are plenty of stocked still waters where you can pull fish in all day'.
Do you not see that your last point there says it all? Those 'stocked still waters' have been there for years haven't they? So surely....the very fact that those who are complaining were not fishing these pools all along must mean that 'easy fishing' per se is NOT, and never was, what they want. All they want Rhys is to carry on catching barbel. The people who are complaining are not those fishing the big rivers, the prolific Wye and so on. Those guys are still catching fish, all be it in not the same numbers perhaps. No mate, the people complaining are the people fishing the Wensum, the upper Thames, the Oxfordshire rivers, and so on. These rivers were never 'easy'....but if you fished well, you could catch a barbel or two now and then, and on rare occasions you might even be blessed with a corker. But not now, their fish are mostly gone. Their barbel fishing is but a pale shadow of what it was, and in some instances, a thing of the past.
I fail to see how on earth you expect them to be happy with that situation, and more to the point....I fail to see why they should have to put up with it. Why is their right to fish for barbel in their local river, something they have been enjoying for years....of less value than the rights of those who wish to see the return of otters? I know it isn't as simple as that chap, but do you see my point? It may well not be otters that are entirely to blame....but by heck they must carry a big share of the blame. You just cannot tell folk who were seeing NO down turn in their fishing, until otters turned up in numbers...that the sudden and almost total collapse of their fishing is down to a strange coincidence. The otters just happened to turn up at precisely the same time as those other issues you mention, issues which these fish have survived for centuries.....suddenly and mysteriously killed them all off.
That would take a fairly large stretch of the imagination to swallow Rhys, wouldn't it?
Cheers, Dave.
Rhys Perry
Senior Member
Habitat improvement would be a start, but you're right it would be a long term project, then again otters have been around a while now so you'd hope their numbers would be stabilizing after the initial reintroduction programs. Maybe a good restocking of fish, but that'll need to dependent on habitat improvements for it to be worth while I'd imagine.
There are successes, albeit big Salmon rivers, such as the Tyne and Tweed, and the Wye Usk foundation have done great work. Ok they have Salmon money to chuck at it but it shows what can be done, they all have otters, and the Wye has a healthy population of coarse fish.
Rhys Perry
Senior Member
That's fair point and I do have some sympathy for those that fish those rivers, but I do think they can bounce back with the right amount of work put in. Fish can be prolific breeders given the right environment, this being the key point, and can easily be restocked in numbers.
I think there is more value in returning a species back from the brink of extinction than that of someone wanting the right to catch fish just for the fun of it. Barbel are not endangered or likely going to be any time soon.
David Gauntlett
Senior Member
Hi again Ash
You say 'The otters re-inroduction is a conservation success.' Errrr....ok....and? Does the fact that something is a success mean that it is necessarily right? For instance, (and I KNOW this is silly, but it's just to prove my point)....if they successfully re-introduced bears to Wimbledon common, and they started killing people (as if
) would the success of that reintroduction make it right? Not a serious thing Ash, it's just that it annoys me when folk trot out these basically meaningless clichés.
You later say 'Anglers should look to address the root cause of the problem, which to me, is why cant fish breed in many of our rivers any more? Perhaps they are too sterile?' Yep, OK Ash, you may well be right. However...if we assume you ARE right on this....do you not think that adding an apex predator to the brew, at just the time the fish were unable to multiply...was a teensy weensy bit of a silly thing to do? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that if you did that...the fish would be pretty well wiped out...and the otters would then starve to death. Of course that is an over simplification of the situation, because re-introduction is not the full story...but it certainly didn't help, so it is a point, isn't it?
TOO sterile Ash
so if you were only....no, I am not going there mate, that would be below the belt Cheers, Dave.