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The Predation Action Group

Rhys Perry said:
As much as I don't want to get involved in yet another argument on this matter, just what wrong end of the stick am I supposed to be getting hold of this time!?
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In your first post Rhys, you said.....

"What makes you/they think they're going to do something the AT can't? Or are they thinking they'll do something the AT won't, which will probably be rash and turn anglers into pariahs.
All seems a bit too radical for my liking, need to work with environmental groups to solve this problem, not against them".

That's the 'wrong end of the stick' I was referring to Rhys.

The PAG are working with the AT....they are actually affiliated to them! The current leadership do not think 'they are going to do something the AT can't', much less 'something the AT won't'. The plan is that they use their own resources and manpower to do intensive research into the overall predation problem (NOT just otters), thereby relieving the pressure on the hard pressed AT, who do not have the resources at present to do it themselves. The results of that research, expected to take at least two years, will on completion be presented to the AT for their perusal, leaving the AT to decide what type of government lobbying, if any, needs to be undertaken.

Certainly there are/were certain members of the PAG who do/did not agree with the more sensible, non confrontational approach to things that chairman Tim Paisley insisted upon on being appointed to that post...but then, I doubt there are many organisations where 100% agreement on policy ever does exist. In any case, it seems some at least of those more militant types may soon head off in their own direction, leaving the very capable Tim and the rest of the committee to hopefully initiate that research. I am sure that you and I can agree that such research is certainly a worthwhile endeavour Rhys, whatever the outcome?

Cheers, Dave.
 
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David Gauntlett said:
I am sure that you and I can agree that such research is certainly a worthwhile endeavour Rhys, whatever the outcome?

Cheers, Dave.
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Absolutely, though I still don't see why they need to set up a separate group for this, rather than simply being a 'wing', as it were, of the AT.
At the very least they really need to rewrite that over sensationalized cr*p on their website, which looks extreme to me, an angler aware of such issues, so god knows what it must look like to non anglers! All this demanding of culls is getting us nowhere.

Take a look at the posts on this RSPB site to give you an idea of how non anglers view such matters, it even contains posts from angling RSPB members opposed to PAG's ideas. I think we should be treading very carefully, if not we could soon be viewed in the same light as fox hunters!
Angling and Piscivorous Predators - Wildlife Protection - Wildlife - The RSPB Community
 
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Rhys Perry said:
Absolutely, though I still don't see why they need to set up a separate group for this, rather than simply being a 'wing', as it were, of the AT.
At the very least they really need to rewrite that over sensationalized cr*p on their website, which looks extreme to me, an angler aware of such issues, so god knows what it must look like to non anglers! All this demanding of culls is getting us nowhere.

Take a look at the posts on this RSPB site to give you an idea of how non anglers view such matters, it even contains posts from angling RSPB members opposed to PAG's ideas. I think we should be treading very carefully, if not we could soon be viewed in the same light as fox hunters!
Angling and Piscivorous Predators - Wildlife Protection - Wildlife - The RSPB Community
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I agree mate mate well said.
 
Interesting link that.
Maybe some of those who like to shout very loud about cormorants and otters, Bob Roberts for example, should get on there and see how they get on.

Result would be untold damage to the reputation of anglers and no gain whatsoever.
 
Mark Anderson said:
Fishing magic thinks a thread on here is mad , do me a favour . If its so good on there , please exercise you right to stay on there .
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Hatter,
I can assure you that the linked thread on FishingMagic had absolutely no connection to anything on BFW. It was in direct response to various fractious barbel threads on that forum and nothing that appeared on here.
 
We all talk about Otters , Cormorants , Goosander and Merganser and the need to see them culled/controlled . I find it interesting that one predatory species that so far has not been mentioned is . Dare I say Zander .
Zander are not or were not an indigenous species to the UK and were first introduced illegally in the 1960's in to the East Anglian Fenland drainage channels and have spread rapidly through out the Uk .
There is clear evidence ( See link below ) That they have decimated the indigenous fish populations .
So should we be culling Zander or are we all a bunch of hyprites .
If we are asking to be allowed to control Otters etc etc . So what would anglers reaction be , If we start culling Zander ?????
Documents presented at the Symposium on Stock Enhancement in the Management of Freshwater Fisheries. Volume 2: Introductions and Transplantations / Documents prsents au Symposium sur l'amlioration des stocks dans de cadre de l'amnagement des pcheries
 
Rhys Perry said:
Absolutely, though I still don't see why they need to set up a separate group for this, rather than simply being a 'wing', as it were, of the AT.
At the very least they really need to rewrite that over sensationalized cr*p on their website, which looks extreme to me, an angler aware of such issues, so god knows what it must look like to non anglers! All this demanding of culls is getting us nowhere.

Take a look at the posts on this RSPB site to give you an idea of how non anglers view such matters, it even contains posts from angling RSPB members opposed to PAG's ideas. I think we should be treading very carefully, if not we could soon be viewed in the same light as fox hunters!
Angling and Piscivorous Predators - Wildlife Protection - Wildlife - The RSPB Community
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Again Rhys, on most of the points you make, I couldn't agree more. I also agree that the RSPB forum on your link is interesting....though their comments are as predictable as many on our forum, i.e, jumping to the defence of the subjects of their own hobby. Interestingly, again in a similar manner to us, not all of the RSPB members are as one on cormorants, as this following post from that forum demonstrates....

"I live in Nottingham many miles from the sea and it seems that the Cormorants are having a serious affect on the river Trent. I lived before in Hampshire and I understand that the Cormorant population has had a dramatic effect on the trout and salmon population on the Dorset Stour and the river Meon.

I understand that the Cormorants and some other birds used to inhabit the coastal areas but have now changed to inhabiting areas and nesting many miles in land.

I recently saw hundreds on some islands in the middle of Orleans in France hundreds of miles from the sea.

The RSPB want to forget about political correctness and admit that some birds like Cormorants and Magpies need to be culled.

I understand that it is the RSPB's view that Magpies do not decimate the garden bird popultaion. I would like to know if these same people look out in their back garden in the spring like I do and see many garden birds nests raided by Magpies.

This along with the cat population rising it is no wonder that the garden bird population is in trouble.

Are we going to see the RSPB preside over the extinction of many garden birds because they cannot admit the reality of the situation?"

Seems some members of the RSPB see things in a way remarkably similar to that of some anglers :D

I think perhaps we could all do with seeing things less in the rather polarising starkness of black or white, and start noticing the more interesting and less confrontational colours in between :p

Cheers, Dave.
 
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A lot has happened since those posts on the RSPB site last June including several meetings at which the AT, Defra, RSPB, Natural England and other groups were all present:

The email HERE sent to those who have used www.cormorantwatch.org details some of the progress made by the Angling Trust on cormorant predation since June 14th.
 
Jim Foxall said:
I think that there will be a public outcry if otters were controlled - relocation would be far more acceptable! As we have discussed countless times, it is the public image of Tarka etc. Unfortunately the damage that otters can inflict on fish and aquatic birds is not seen by Joe Public. As for cormorants, I have been told that the birds we see on our rivers are not our native sea birds that have migrated inland but East European river cormorants that have migrated - now this is not a wind up and may not be true. Certainly the twitchers on Rutland Water have turned against cormorants because of the damage that they are inflicting on wildlife in general and the scales are slowly starting to drop from the twitchers' eyes. And that's the point, bird lovers are wising up because they are witnessing the cormorants' damage at first hand whereas there are no otter "twitchers" to see the damage that they cause.
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I'm begining to wonder if there would be a public outcry Jim, there certainly seems to be no such thing with the planned cull of Badgers, or maybe their bellies ( and pockets ) rule their hearts !
The only protests i've seen have come from animal welfare protestors, and not that many that i've heard of from them either !

As for relocation - to where ? - would it be right to pass the problem onto others ? I don't think so.
Populations of Otters that have naturally regenerated i have no problem with - if they did so naturally i'm not entirely sure they did, but i'll give them the benifit of the doubt, though i'm sure in some areas they never actualy died out.

The areas where those B******s introduced captive bred Otters which have WRECKED the fisheries they predated in, are a different matter.
I've no wish to see any Otters killed, but leaving aside my solution of captureing and neutering which i've spoken of in previous threads on the issue which i know would never be implemented, and is probably too far down the road for that anyway, the damage is done - there is not much choice.

Otters do not just predate on fish, as with any other predator they will take advantage of any available and edible prey.
Where they are present in unnatural numbers i would be interested to see the public's reaction to other species of wildlife being damaged as a result of unnatural levels of predation, maybe that would bring their opinions more on side.
The government seem all to willing to sanction a cull of badgers ( an endemic and native animal to these islands ) where a percieved ( not proven i believe ) transmission of bovine TB from Badgers to cattle is hitting the pockets of farmers, then to be fair the same criteria should be applied to Otters, at least in the areas where it is known fact they were unnaturaly introduced, in far to greater numbers, and from what i understand would actually be the kindest thing for some of the dog otters, unable to find their own territory which are attacked, maimed and killed by the mature Otters whose territory they invade.
The very least that should happen in my opinion is in such areas a trapping programme shoulds be implemented in areas that have suffered most, and if need be work out later what to do with them, realisticaly probably euthinasia would be the only recourse.
Personaly i would hate to see it, but those that instigated this whole problem would have only themselves to blame, personaly i'd like to see that lot dealt with at the same time ! :mad:

Ian.
 
Hmm. Slough. I was schooled there when it was all white bar the traditional round of job-seeking immigrant Welsh, Irish and Poles and a few delightful, still missing home terribly, wonderfully funky, friendly, rum-drinking West Indian bus-drivers.

"but those that instigated this whole problem would have only themselves to blame, personaly i'd like to see that lot dealt with at the same time!"

Hmm.

There is more to this otter thang than meets a life-long, very experienced and very widely fished fisher's eye, I have long thought; that it's every bit as much about US and our outlook on life and our country as it is about THEM...
 
Paul Boote said:
Hmm. Slough. I was schooled there when it was all white bar the traditional round of job-seeking immigrant Welsh, Irish and Poles and a few delightful, still missing home terribly, wonderfully funky, friendly, rum-drinking West Indian bus-drivers.

"but those that instigated this whole problem would have only themselves to blame, personaly i'd like to see that lot dealt with at the same time!"

Hmm.

There is more to this otter thang than meets a life-long, very experienced and very widely fished fisher's eye, I have long thought; that it's every bit as much about US and our outlook on life and our country as it is about THEM...
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nice to see you back Mr Boote...:D
but on your post, :confused:...:p
 
Quote Mandy Rice-Davies (a Welsh country lass turned London good-time girl and close friend of Christine Keeler, born Uxbridge, moved to Wraysbury, later busy in the Maidenhead-Cookham area), about some Astor toff covering his legal rear end:

"Well, he would, wouldn't he?" ["say that" in the much-misquoted version of her words]
 
Ah, but I do to some, Keith, only too well - reason why they have followed me about the Internet for years like little snapping and snarling pug-lapdogs.
 
Stick to the point Paul instead of licking your own ass, making personal asides and stroking your ego.

I defer to this excellent post which needs to be read again.

Eels only breed in the Sargasso sea, they have not been bred in captivity. However the sustainable eel project does involve the growing on and releasing mature eels back to the sea in larger numbers than achievable by natural means. This will hopefully increase the number of elvers returning. It is however a complete myth that Otters somehow prefer eels to other fish. Otters eat whatever is present. I have spent some considerable time watching otters on the West Coast of Scotland, their main diet their is shellfish as that is what is easiest to catch. On Scottish rivers they mainly eat trout as again that is what is there. They used to eat salmon, but sadly the salmon farms have killed all the wild ones.

At present otters may well achieve numbers that are completely un sustainable by natural sources of food as a direct result of the many stocked lakes built around rivers that didn't exist until recently. Once these are either empty of fish or fenced the otters will have no choice but to seek food on the rivers, this will cause a very serious problem for fish stocks on rivers, but it is one created by the un wise building on stocked ponds every where rather than by the natural return of a native predator. I would say that in some areas this has happened already. The number of gravel pits that have become stocked with carp around the Great Ouse is a good example.

To argue for culling otters will only lead to a major backlash against anglers. To use public money to fence commercial fisheries in these times of financial hardship is only going to lead to a reduction in cash for doing longer term work to support and improve the river environment.

My point is not that otters are not a problem to commercial interests, just that it would be better for anglers who do not have a commercial interest to lobby for more cash to be spent on environmental improvements for rivers in order to provide a sustainable population of fish for us to catch and otters to eat. I think that would go down a lot better with the general public who have to foot the bill through taxes (the government doesn't actually have any money...it's all ours) than funding some sort of anti otter campaign.

The Angling Trust have achieved so much in recent years in establishing themselves as an important environmental body. They are listened too in high places. They are influencing Natural England on the cormorant issue. They are getting the cash that anglers pay in license fees directly spent on angling matters. They have influenced the water framework directive to great effect. All these things could be blown out of the water by running some sort of campaign against otters. Anglers will stand to loose a lot more than they gain in the longer term.

Let commercial fisheries finance fencing themselves and lets hope the AT does not take up the PAG's campaign.
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Hi men,

Nick , he can't help himself , it's like a drug :D. Toys go out the pram , flounces off never to come back :rolleyes:, welcome back Paul , well until someone else chases you all over the Internet :rolleyes:.

There is a piece by Tim Paisly in carp world this month on the pag , showing that he knows that they have to work with other groups on this , showing a more responceable attitude to the overall subject of preditors , not just otters . Like all groups of people you have polerisation in views, and the medium is where the group normally ends up . He reads ( and iv met and spoke to him ) as an intelligent bloke , as do some of the others . As iv said before , the otter netting is not an option in lots of cases . One club I was going to join has lost loads of members , a club that barely covers the lease money on a lake will just drop it ! not able to erect netting , and it's then lost to bird watchers , saling , shooting , and other other form of pastimes that are MORE orgernised than angling .

Yes otter culls will not happen , yes it would show angling in a bad light , yes there is no easy answer .

Relocating them ?, France , Greece , Scotland :D.


Hatter
 
The best action group that could be formed would be a group of huntsmen with guns..Do we need a cull?, well yes we do in certain places, not everywhere but just where its needed..

No point being made to think were trouble makers just because you ask for a cull, who gives a damn what the public think!!..What Ian Grant has said is true, the public probably wouldent be that botherd just like with the Badger cull..Anglers and various organisations have been sitting on the fence for too long and in some cases its too late now regarding fish stocks where the Otter has all but wiped them out...

The trouble is when you protect one species you can bet that another species will suffer as a direct result.

Bring back hunting and start telling these interfering doo- gooders exactly where to go..:eek::eek::eek:
 
At the moment Defra is currently tendering for marksmen to carry out a cull of Badgers in West Gloucestershire and West Somerset .
In my local newspaper today was a story of a Vermin controller saying how he was threatened by animal rights activists if he took part in the cull
So I wonder what the out come will be if we anglers are granted our wish of being able to cull Otters .

Threats made to vermin controller over badger cull | This is Gloucestershire
 
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