• You need to be a registered member of Barbel Fishing World to post on these forums. Some of the forums are hidden from non-members. Please refer to the instructions on the ‘Register’ page for details of how to join the new incarnation of BFW...

The Predation Action Group

Andy Frances

Administrator
Staff member
I would suggest any split is rather more about solutions and how anglers go about reaching them; personally I have never heard of anybody denying that predation is and always has been a problem.

I have had a look at this groups web site and am at a loss to understand what they are actually calling for. In terms of bird predation the AT has monitored levels through its web site, resulting in an acknowledgement that more cormorants are present than previously acknowledged. They have got a commitment to the issuing of an increase in licenses to shoot cormorants as well as other solutions to the problems. The AT also have an arrangement with the BASAC to provide shooters were clubs etc. can't. Seems to me the AT have done a pretty good job so far and deserve continued support from all anglers.

The stuff around otters all seems to revolve around the areas where otters were re introduced, rather than most areas were otters have returned in number as a result of environmental improvements. The last time I checked not a single application had been made to shoot otters, although this may have changed as the figure I obtained from Natural England (and posted here) were up to 2010. Other than shooting them I am at a loss as how exactly people wish to control otter numbers as hunting with hounds is illegal, so if those who feel otters are such a destructive presence (rather than just a completely natural predator) they don't do something about it themselves, such as applying to kill them, before they seek to involve the AT. If they are successful in getting the AT to start calling for culls of otters I think we can say goodbye to the AT ever being taken seriously by the public and the powers that be again.
I just hope that these celebrity anglers don't cause harm to most pleasure anglers such as myself by alienating the general public against us all. Lets hope there is loads and loads of other news around so no body picks up on this.
 
I may have missed it, but I couldn't see any mention of mink? Or are they not a problem because they don't eat big carp?

On an admittedly brief read I'd say if I was an otter-lover I'd have no difficulty dismantling some of their arguments.
 
Mink are on the general license. They can be shot or trapped with land owners permission no license required ( Mink are also legally hunted with hounds). Some of us have long attempted to keep the numbers of these beasts down and on some rivers anglers have been very successful when they have co ordinate shooting and trapping. See the Wye and Usk Foundation for some details of one of the projects.

I have personally taken quite a few out on the Teme.

Interestingly one small river that I have recently been involved in through the SRT has a mink problem and coordinating shooting and trapping is on going. This involves local wildlife groups. Unfortunately some of the wild life activist are becoming rather antagonistic towards anglers as they have got hold of the idea (due no doubt to some recent media reports) that anglers also want to remove the otters that have made a successful recovery. I had to spend some time discussing this with various local to convince them this wasn't the case and that most anglers welcomed the return of the otter; otherwise no fishing would be possible on some stretches on this river and the local groups would not wish to work with anglers.
 
I don't see the point of this group, they're like some kind of right wing splinter group of the angling trust, which isn't going to help our cause with regards public opinion. Especially when they write nonsense such as this:

'Whilst the otter cannot help being a giant predatory, aquatic rat with Doberman like- teeth'

'Surely if a farmer is allowed to shoot someone’s dog worrying his sheep, then should it not follow that fish farmers and coarse fishery owner’s whos big carp are worth significantly more than a sheep should be allowed to do like wise.'

And by using classic sweeping tabloid phrases such as 'do-gooders', who's going to want to work with them or take them seriously?
 
You either join such groups such as the Predation Action Group etc etc if you give a damn, or stick your head in the sand and pretend all things are rosy....... just my opinion
 
Is asking for a cull on Otters the right way to voice our/Anglers opinion.I doubt it, a P.R. own goal for sure.Too many environmentalist will jump upon this view and cut it down. The days of killing what you see as a threat to your sport are long gone.

......just my opinion
 
'The Angling Trust is there to look after anglers’ interests but they are underfunded and have their hands full. The PAG has been formed to research the predation issue and put together a convincing case for some measure of control of predators. In the first instance the PAG’s brief is to report their findings to the Angling Trust.' End of quote

What a load of ****!

There are two things i don't want in my angling:
1. Glory hunters
2. Politics of any sort
Usually the two are inextricably linked.

The only way to deal with the 'problem', whatever type of 'problem' it may be is to act immediately with force.

Predators don't procrastinate; politics does.
 
Predation

Hi all,

I've just seen this new website announced on Twitter by Martin Bowler.

The Predation Action Group : Fighting For The Future Of Fishing

I know we seem to be split as a group as to whether we have a problem or not, but to those who think we have, check it out...

Cheers,

Andy F

I think that there will be a public outcry if otters were controlled - relocation would be far more acceptable! As we have discussed countless times, it is the public image of Tarka etc. Unfortunately the damage that otters can inflict on fish and aquatic birds is not seen by Joe Public. As for cormorants, I have been told that the birds we see on our rivers are not our native sea birds that have migrated inland but East European river cormorants that have migrated - now this is not a wind up and may not be true. Certainly the twitchers on Rutland Water have turned against cormorants because of the damage that they are inflicting on wildlife in general and the scales are slowly starting to drop from the twitchers' eyes. And that's the point, bird lovers are wising up because they are witnessing the cormorants' damage at first hand whereas there are no otter "twitchers" to see the damage that they cause.
 
Nice one Andy

How any angler can think we don't have a problem is beyond me !

Well said stewart also the eastern europeons are a problam also in my opinion ive seen these guys land fish and put them in there bags and when ive phoned enviroment ageny they dont have enough bailiffs in the area so what can we do.it makes my blood boil.
 
You either join such groups such as the Predation Action Group etc etc if you give a damn, or stick your head in the sand and pretend all things are rosy....... just my opinion

What makes you/they think they're going to do something the AT can't? Or are they thinking they'll do something the AT won't, which will probably be rash and turn anglers into pariahs.
All seems a bit too radical for my liking, need to work with environmental groups to solve this problem, not against them.
 
What makes you/they think they're going to do something the AT can't? Or are they thinking they'll do something the AT won't, which will probably be rash and turn anglers into pariahs.
All seems a bit too radical for my liking, need to work with environmental groups to solve this problem, not against them.

Rhys, I promised myself I wouldn't get involved this time....but I am so worried about your general well being I can't help myself. If you continue to get hold of the wrong end of every stick you come across mate, you are bound to catch something nasty eventually :p

Cheers, Dave.
 
I caught "something nasty" a long time ago, Rhys - it's called being in touch with reality and possessing commonsense - so don't worry your, in some people's eyes, left-wing, Away With the Fairies, Cloud Cuckoo Land little head...
 
Trying to petition for a law to cull Otters would be the biggest own goal angling could ever score .Rhys has it right , work with environmentalists and other interest groups not against them
 
Hi men ,

My local river , Ouse , has only got worse with the increase of otters .They have highlighted the other failings (crays, flow , ****e , poaching, spawning ), but at the end of the day they predated what was there . Would i be happy if they had not turned up ?, yes , if they disapeared ?, yes.


Hatter
 
The Otter debate has divided angling as far as opinions are concerned, I was very much against Otter but since I have listened to both sides and I would much rather have Otter in our Rivers than not, but of course there will always be a settling in period where nature has to adapt to having an apex predator such as the Otter in her rivers.

There have been casualties and that is truly heart breaking, no one enjoys seeing a dead barbel or any fish come to that but I TRUST nature and so should we all, was it not for Man's hand we would not have nearly wiped out the Otter so I think we owe the Otter a reprieve.

Of course the irony is that it is mostly Anglers that get to see Otters in the wild, and the one's I have seen don't leave me with a feeling of despair but rather awe, for it is a beautiful specimen of that there is no doubt, And that is the rub my friends the Otter IS beautiful we and fish are not, so to try and influence the public that we have the rights over the Otter will be a PR disaster and will lead only to curtail our rights to fish some Rivers.

I much respect the likes of John Wilson and Martin Bowler, but the author seems to have struck the right balance, however having such a vocal and famous group to contend with he will have his hands full.

However when I hear of the demise of some rivers, and the experience of Mark in particular I fell utterly saddened that the Rivers are in decline, but can we really put the blame on the Otter alone, or is it a combination of other factors that we are only too aware of?

BFW is the most important Angling forum, it has members that have a wealth of knowledge regarding Angling , and the ability to express themselves, personally I believe it would be a mistake if we as a majority vilified the Otter whilst missing perhaps the main reasons for the demise of our Rivers.
 
The Otter debate has divided angling as far as opinions are concerned, I was very much against Otter but since I have listened to both sides and I would much rather have Otter in our Rivers than not, but of course there will always be a settling in period where nature has to adapt to having an apex predator such as the Otter in her rivers.

There have been casualties and that is truly heart breaking, no one enjoys seeing a dead barbel or any fish come to that but I TRUST nature and so should we all, was it not for Man's hand we would not have nearly wiped out the Otter so I think we owe the Otter a reprieve.

Of course the irony is that it is mostly Anglers that get to see Otters in the wild, and the one's I have seen don't leave me with a feeling of despair but rather awe, for it is a beautiful specimen of that there is no doubt, And that is the rub my friends the Otter IS beautiful we and fish are not, so to try and influence the public that we have the rights over the Otter will be a PR disaster and will lead only to curtail our rights to fish some Rivers.

I much respect the likes of John Wilson and Martin Bowler, but the author seems to have struck the right balance, however having such a vocal and famous group to contend with he will have his hands full.

However when I hear of the demise of some rivers, and the experience of Mark in particular I fell utterly saddened that the Rivers are in decline, but can we really put the blame on the Otter alone, or is it a combination of other factors that we are only too aware of?

BFW is the most important Angling forum, it has members that have a wealth of knowledge regarding Angling , and the ability to express themselves, personally I believe it would be a mistake if we as a majority vilified the Otter whilst missing perhaps the main reasons for the demise of our Rivers.

You are quite right of course Neil, to my mind most of your points are indisputable. We all recognise and understand that there are a great many reasons for the sad state of many of our rivers....and that most of them are entirely man made :eek:.

We rather like to trot out our failings and destructive and wasteful habits that lay behind many of the problems besetting our rivers...the pollution, over abstraction, drainage of/building on natural flood plains and the near criminal flood prevention measures that need to be taken as a result of that. The list goes on forever. To our shame, we cant deny any of it, and despite this ritual 'beating up of ourselves' we indulge in by repeatedly publishing these sins, we are seemingly incapable of mending our ways....so the chaos continues

When you add to that the havoc that imported species such as signal crayfish are wreaking....eating the meagre levels of eggs and fry that our beleaguered fish do manage to produce, and.....no, sorry, the damage such critters are doing to our native flora and fauna is well documented, so you don't need someone like me to point it out, though apparently it WILL get worse. Cormorants? What can I say....the experts claim that the current unnatural levels of these birds (and who knows whether or not man caused that problem as well, though some experts are claiming that most of the birds currently causing our problems are in fact NOT our native birds....but that is another issue :p) has caused, and is continuing to cause unsustainable levels of damage to the fish stocks in many of our waterways. All in all, there are so many serious issues challenging our fish at present that it is a testament to their tenacity that any survive at all in our more pressured rivers!

It is a true and happy fact that some rivers (usually for geographic reasons) have so far escaped the worst of our depredations and so are relatively healthy. It is also true that there are some rivers where a wonderful, hard earned rejuvenation has taken place...rivers that run through areas once heavily industrialised and previously virtually dead have now been bought back to life. However, those lucky few are a minority....I think it is fair to say that the majority of our rivers are in a very sorry state, with some poised on the edge of disaster. In fact, I don't think many anglers or ecologists or whoever would dispute the sad fact that this combination of pressures has reduced the majority of our waterways to a shadow of their former selves, with stocks of not just fish, but the entire food chain in a desperate and unnatural state of decline.

Now...if we accept that, then we must ask the inevitable question, the question which for me is the whole crux of this thorny otter issue/argument....call it what you will. That question is this...was this an appropriate time to encourage/bring about the return of an apex predator such as the otter...or not? I KNOW some will say that the otter has returned naturally, due to the banning/removal of the chemicals that caused it's decline in the first place....and for all I know, they may be right. However, it is an indisputable fact that there was a breeding programme which took place, and a hotly disputed number of artificially raised otters were released into our rivers. There have been, and still are strong rumours of numbers of further unofficial stockings taking place. Some apparently reliable sources claim that these stockings are still going on now, taking the numbers of otters which possibly no longer act in the way their wild parents did ( If true, that suspicion MAY prove to be crucial)...to way beyond the officially admitted levels.

Like most of those on the outside looking in, I find it impossible to tell fact from fiction....there are undoubtedly people with their own agenda on both sides, putting their own slant on things to suit themselves. All I do now is that because these undeniably handsome animals appeared in numbers at a time when so many rivers were in decline, with almost zero recruitment of youngsters for many years running, they resorted to the only route left open to them...they ate what was left...the adult fish, hence the demise of places like Adams mill, most of the Wensome etc, etc. Now...call me cynical if you will, but that doesn't sound 'natural' to me. Nature tends to allow predators to spread and increase when food is abundant...NOT when it is critically low, as has been the case in many instances on this occasion. Natural?....doesn't sound right to me. Will things level out eventually, given time? Who knows, I certainly don't. That would be the 'natural' thing to happen....but then precious little of what has happened so far in this matter seems 'natural' to me....worrying.

Whatever, there seems nothing that we can do about it now....once again, we have made our bed and must lay in it, as they say. Let us see though what the groups investigating the matter now come up with. I have a great respect for Tim Paisley, the chairman of this PAG, he is a man of many talents and great insight....and writes and argues with great eloquence. If anyone can guide the more radical members of that group towards engaging in meaningful dialogue and thinking, he can. I wish him well. And for those who seemed to have missed it, this group is affiliated to, and working with the AT....not against or despite of!

Sorry about the length of this latest version of 'War and Peace'....as you may have gathered, it is an issue I give a great deal of thought to, and those thoughts have developed and changed as I have learned more and listened others peoples opinions.
Perhaps I should get out and do more fishing, rather than worrying about it, lol.

Cheers, Dave.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top