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The Predation Action Group

Dave Burr said:
If you want a true insight into the PAG and the reasons behind their work then check out the editorial in this months Carpworld written by Tim Paisley, it is a real eye opener.
Click to expand...

There is a link to that leader within the item Andy linked to on the original post Dave.

Cheers, Dave.
 
From the PDF of that CarpWorld leader, beside a tug-at-the-heartstrings "Tarka Stiffs a Beloved Barb" drawing from the Martin Bowler book:

"LEFT: 'Shylock' about to have his pound of flesh."

Oh please. So rabble-rousingly crude. Do you really think that mere numbers of outraged catchers of soon-to-be-returned, named, semi-tame fish and some Terrible Two foot-stamping tantrums from semi-media savvy folk like yourselves are going to win hearts and minds?

You are more blind in your obsession than even I had suspected.
 
Hi men,

People can have an opinion Paul, if it dont suit yours dont read it , or take up a station that can effect the outcome, or represtent angling in a better light . I think you had an offer on this site once .

Hatter
 
Some people you can try calm, clear-headed reason on, others you can't...

you lot are a bunch of nutters! - Page 3 - FishingMagic Forums

As for effecting the outcome - it's long been done and dusted, however much some kick and howl and try to get RentaMob onside: NO politician will touch the PAG and the Anti-Otter Mob (well, maybe Nick Griffin...). Sorry, but (as I have long said, and received much personal poo and some real unpleasantness for saying)...
 
One of the truly depressing things about this thread is how quickly it gets driven into becoming a retrogressive slanging match.
 
Just to add a little more to the mix, the following has also been set up, the below was posted in Mid November last year on another forum -

Further to the last few months apathy from the P. A G. (Preditation Action Group) I have been compelled to call time on my apathy...and I would urge other carp anglers to do the same.
I will not repeat what I said at my recent show in York at the York Carp Study Group, suffice to say when the P.A.G can reach two resolutions regarding signal crayfish and commorants but no clear strategy on otters, then enough is enough.
I rang Ruth Lockwood, on the committee of the P.A.G, over a year ago. So far I believe there have been two meetings and no clear progress. I believe strongly that Carp Anglers will only obtain what they want by organising themselves. That is why if the support is there, as I am sure everyone will agree the need is, then we should immediately form the Carp Fishing Defense League.
It's objectives are as follows:

PROTECT CARP FISHING STOCKS FROM PREDITATION,

That's it!!!

I basically see it as an independant pressure group, non charging to lobby initially the EA, who take millions from us, to assist us in protecting carp from otters. Perhaps at this juncture to ask for a cull is too much but at the very least we need information regarding otter releases. We need to know when, how many and where. This will allow local angling clubs some chance to make precautionary measures. We also need assistance/subsidies for fencing. These are minimum requirements that are not negotiable.
The PC attitude of some on the P.A.G is getting us no where. We need to be proactive not reactive and stop apologizing for being carp anglers who want to protect their fish. If that makes us selfish then so be it. I have spent nigh on 25 years fighting for carp angler's rights within my local club and I am staggered at the lack of foresight from certain members of the Angling Trust.
Those who read Tim Paisley's Carpworld Leader a couple of months ago would probably have also picked up on his own frustrations. Well it is time for us to stand up.

I wrote an editorial four years ago about the plague that would soon befall carp anglers called otters. Some people dismissed it as me being alarmist. Well it wasn't alarmist then and it isn't now. Otters and their unmanaged existance is the biggest single threat to carp fishing in this country. With the inactivity and demise of ECHO and the inability of the great and good from the P.A.G to actually get anything done, now is the time to say enough is enough. Believe me guys the Angling Trust are not fighting like they should on this issue.

Initially I would urge all carp anglers to email me their name and address at with held. In the new year I intend to hold a public meeting for all concerned where we will decide the best steps to take.

I implore you this threat needs tackling now.

Mark Holmes


I know Mark to speak with, he is a very passionate and intelligent angler and also the Chairman of one of the biggest angling clubs in the UK. Mark has asssurred me that the group is for carp anglers in name only and they/he will fight for all affected species.
 
Predation

Dan Birkett said:
Just to add a little more to the mix, the following has also been set up, the below was posted in Mid November last year on another forum -

Further to the last few months apathy from the P. A G. (Preditation Action Group) I have been compelled to call time on my apathy...and I would urge other carp anglers to do the same.
I will not repeat what I said at my recent show in York at the York Carp Study Group, suffice to say when the P.A.G can reach two resolutions regarding signal crayfish and commorants but no clear strategy on otters, then enough is enough.
I rang Ruth Lockwood, on the committee of the P.A.G, over a year ago. So far I believe there have been two meetings and no clear progress. I believe strongly that Carp Anglers will only obtain what they want by organising themselves. That is why if the support is there, as I am sure everyone will agree the need is, then we should immediately form the Carp Fishing Defense League.
It's objectives are as follows:

PROTECT CARP FISHING STOCKS FROM PREDITATION,

That's it!!!

I basically see it as an independant pressure group, non charging to lobby initially the EA, who take millions from us, to assist us in protecting carp from otters. Perhaps at this juncture to ask for a cull is too much but at the very least we need information regarding otter releases. We need to know when, how many and where. This will allow local angling clubs some chance to make precautionary measures. We also need assistance/subsidies for fencing. These are minimum requirements that are not negotiable.
The PC attitude of some on the P.A.G is getting us no where. We need to be proactive not reactive and stop apologizing for being carp anglers who want to protect their fish. If that makes us selfish then so be it. I have spent nigh on 25 years fighting for carp angler's rights within my local club and I am staggered at the lack of foresight from certain members of the Angling Trust.
Those who read Tim Paisley's Carpworld Leader a couple of months ago would probably have also picked up on his own frustrations. Well it is time for us to stand up.

I wrote an editorial four years ago about the plague that would soon befall carp anglers called otters. Some people dismissed it as me being alarmist. Well it wasn't alarmist then and it isn't now. Otters and their unmanaged existance is the biggest single threat to carp fishing in this country. With the inactivity and demise of ECHO and the inability of the great and good from the P.A.G to actually get anything done, now is the time to say enough is enough. Believe me guys the Angling Trust are not fighting like they should on this issue.

Initially I would urge all carp anglers to email me their name and address at with held. In the new year I intend to hold a public meeting for all concerned where we will decide the best steps to take.

I implore you this threat needs tackling now.

Mark Holmes


I know Mark to speak with, he is a very passionate and intelligent angler and also the Chairman of one of the biggest angling clubs in the UK. Mark has asssurred me that the group is for carp anglers in name only and they/he will fight for all affected species.
Click to expand...

An excellent and informative post. Perhaps I'm being naive, but on whose authority was this release of otters on such a large scale conducted? Surely the introduction of any species should have some stamp of authority. The do-gooders who orchestrated this ill thought out release should be called to account and sued for the replenishment of fish stocks - difficult in the case of barbel, but demonstrating carp predation should be a simpler task.
 
Hi men ,

A good reply to a question I asked was - best keep fishing the bits of club waters even if they are effected by all the problems that are well documented , because clubs that will eventually not take up leases on rivers due to drops in usage / revenue from members dropping out , will lose them to bird watchers , canoeists , etc . Never thought of it that way , and will re join a club near me for next season .

Fishing magic thinks a thread on here is mad , do me a favour . If its so good on there , please exercise you right to stay on there .I see the arguments from both sides , but both sides should have the right to express them ?

Hatter
 
Why don't people get so worked up about, for example, Himalayan Balsam which does far more long-term damage to river ecology, and hence fish stocks, than otters ever will. Taking out the top predators won't restore a river to health (if only it was that easy).
 
Hi men ,

Neil , agreed , but nobody is getting worked up , or it don't seem that way to me , I just like BFW attitude to being able to express a view from both sides of a subject . Crayfish on the rivers I fish are a massive problem , eroding banks , eating fish etc . Now there is a problem that has bods scratching their heads , seems trapping does help ( on the bits we used to fish anyway ).


Hatter
 
David Gauntlett said:
Rhys, I promised myself I wouldn't get involved this time....but I am so worried about your general well being I can't help myself. If you continue to get hold of the wrong end of every stick you come across mate, you are bound to catch something nasty eventually :p

Cheers, Dave.
Click to expand...

As much as I don't want to get involved in yet another argument on this matter, just what wrong end of the stick am I supposed to be getting hold of this time!?

From the PDF of that CarpWorld leader, beside a tug-at-the-heartstrings "Tarka Stiffs a Beloved Barb" drawing from the Martin Bowler book:

"LEFT: 'Shylock' about to have his pound of flesh."

Oh please. So rabble-rousingly crude. Do you really think that mere numbers of outraged catchers of soon-to-be-returned, named, semi-tame fish and some Terrible Two foot-stamping tantrums from semi-media savvy folk like yourselves are going to win hearts and minds?

You are more blind in your obsession than even I had suspected.
Click to expand...

Spot on again Mr B
 
Mark Anderson said:
Hi men ,

Neil , agreed , but nobody is getting worked up , or it don't seem that way to me , I just like BFW attitude to being able to express a view from both sides of a subject . Crayfish on the rivers I fish are a massive problem , eroding banks , eating fish etc . Now there is a problem that has bods scratching their heads , seems trapping does help ( on the bits we used to fish anyway ).


Hatter
Click to expand...

Sorry, I didn't word my post very well. I meant PAG, and their like (including the angling press), I didn't mean those posting on BFW.

If PAG want to get anywhere they should be focussing on alien species (mink, crayfish, balsam, knotweed etc). By fixating on otters they will alienate the very people they need to work with if they are serious about restoring rivers to health. Here's an example of how it can work Monnow

Just my, possibly uninformed, two pence worth.
 
Jim Foxall said:
An excellent and informative post. Perhaps I'm being naive, but on whose authority was this release of otters on such a large scale conducted? Surely the introduction of any species should have some stamp of authority. The do-gooders who orchestrated this ill thought out release should be called to account and sued for the replenishment of fish stocks - difficult in the case of barbel, but demonstrating carp predation should be a simpler task.
Click to expand...

Otters were released on a relatively small scale back in the ninties on the Thames and East Anglia where it was claimed they had died out. IMO this was always a mistake as cash should have been spect improving the environment and banned the chemicals and agricultural practises that lead to the otters decline. Whilst those who carried out the releases are quick to claim credit for the otters return the major reason for the return was indeed the improvements to environment and the banning of the chemicals. This is demonstrated by the large numbers of otters now present in areas where no releases where carried out (the Severn catchment being a good example). The banning of the chemicals and some environmental improvements have lead to a natural spread of otters throughout the Severn catchments.

During the time otters where in serious decline many still water fisheries where created. Often large grants from Defra and tax breaks where available to build these fisheries. Some members of the PAG where notable advocates of these man made fisheries being the future of angling rather than rivers. John Wilson often used his TV programme to advocate for this. These fisheries have been stocked often with none native species. I am not sure who was consulted at the time about the creation of all these new still waters, however the whole process of creating still waters subsidised by the tax payer to replace river fishing was a great success to the disappointment of people such as myself.

It seems odd now that owners of these fisheries seem to want some sort of public assistance to remove a natural predator that threatens their business. Even the gamekeepers affected by the increase in birds of prey don't ask for the tax payer to pay to remove them!

Predation is an important issue for anglers, but those of us who do it as a hobby rather than a profession should be very cautious about allowing the debate to be lead and captured by the professional fishery owners. Particularly when they seek to dictate the views of the angling trust anorganisation that represents all anglers, not just the professionals.
 
Predation

Pete Marshall said:
Otters were released on a relatively small scale back in the ninties on the Thames and East Anglia where it was claimed they had died out. IMO this was always a mistake as cash should have been spect improving the environment and banned the chemicals and agricultural practises that lead to the otters decline. Whilst those who carried out the releases are quick to claim credit for the otters return the major reason for the return was indeed the improvements to environment and the banning of the chemicals. This is demonstrated by the large numbers of otters now present in areas where no releases where carried out (the Severn catchment being a good example). The banning of the chemicals and some environmental improvements have lead to a natural spread of otters throughout the Severn catchments.

During the time otters where in serious decline many still water fisheries where created. Often large grants from Defra and tax breaks where available to build these fisheries. Some members of the PAG where notable advocates of these man made fisheries being the future of angling rather than rivers. John Wilson often used his TV programme to advocate for this. These fisheries have been stocked often with none native species. I am not sure who was consulted at the time about the creation of all these new still waters, however the whole process of creating still waters subsidised by the tax payer to replace river fishing was a great success to the disappointment of people such as myself.

It seems odd now that owners of these fisheries seem to want some sort of public assistance to remove a natural predator that threatens their business. Even the gamekeepers affected by the increase in birds of prey don't ask for the tax payer to pay to remove them!

Predation is an important issue for anglers, but those of us who do it as a hobby rather than a profession should be very cautious about allowing the debate to be lead and captured by the professional fishery owners. Particularly when they seek to dictate the views of the angling trust anorganisation that represents all anglers, not just the professionals.
Click to expand...

Many thanks, Pete. A balance is fine just so long that it is a balance. On the subject of small water fisheries, many were stocked with non-native rainbow trout in the 1980s. However, the rainbows were largely contained and fed. As far as I am aware rainbow trout have had no impact on the native browns population, perhaps because there so few rainbows in our rivers. Maybe the otter fraternity should consider starting an eel breeding programme to provide a natural food source for the otters. Ultimately, as a result of predation, the fish population will decline and the otters with it. A lose lose situation from whichever perspective.
 
Eels only breed in the Sargasso sea, they have not been bred in captivity. However the sustainable eel project does involve the growing on and releasing mature eels back to the sea in larger numbers than achievable by natural means. This will hopefully increase the number of elvers returning. It is however a complete myth that Otters somehow prefer eels to other fish. Otters eat whatever is present. I have spent some considerable time watching otters on the West Coast of Scotland, their main diet their is shellfish as that is what is easiest to catch. On Scottish rivers they mainly eat trout as again that is what is there. They used to eat salmon, but sadly the salmon farms have killed all the wild ones.

At present otters may well achieve numbers that are completely un sustainable by natural sources of food as a direct result of the many stocked lakes built around rivers that didn't exist until recently. Once these are either empty of fish or fenced the otters will have no choice but to seek food on the rivers, this will cause a very serious problem for fish stocks on rivers, but it is one created by the un wise building on stocked ponds every where rather than by the natural return of a native predator. I would say that in some areas this has happened already. The number of gravel pits that have become stocked with carp around the Great Ouse is a good example.

To argue for culling otters will only lead to a major backlash against anglers. To use public money to fence commercial fisheries in these times of financial hardship is only going to lead to a reduction in cash for doing longer term work to support and improve the river environment.

My point is not that otters are not a problem to commercial interests, just that it would be better for anglers who do not have a commercial interest to lobby for more cash to be spent on environmental improvements for rivers in order to provide a sustainable population of fish for us to catch and otters to eat. I think that would go down a lot better with the general public who have to foot the bill through taxes (the government doesn't actually have any money...it's all ours) than funding some sort of anti otter campaign.

The Angling Trust have achieved so much in recent years in establishing themselves as an important environmental body. They are listened too in high places. They are influencing Natural England on the cormorant issue. They are getting the cash that anglers pay in license fees directly spent on angling matters. They have influenced the water framework directive to great effect. All these things could be blown out of the water by running some sort of campaign against otters. Anglers will stand to loose a lot more than they gain in the longer term.

Let commercial fisheries finance fencing themselves and lets hope the AT does not take up the PAG's campaign.
 
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Hi me ,

Pete , who pays for the average club water to be fenced , when their revenue just about covers their own costs ?. Stop using the commercial as an example , what about just normal lakes .

Hatter
 
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Pete, excellent post.

I must say I find some of the anti-otter propaganda out there, quite disturbing.

Carp defence League? Is this serious? When has there ever been more carp, big and small, in the country then there is now? UK Carp anglers have never had it so good, they really haven't. A few are going to get predated on, like they do throughout there natural inviroment, that's nature and the natural world for you.

JB
 
Pete Marshall said:
Eels only breed in the Sargasso sea, they have not been bred in captivity. However the sustainable eel project does involve the growing on and releasing mature eels back to the sea in larger numbers than achievable by natural means. This will hopefully increase the number of elvers returning. It is however a complete myth that Otters somehow prefer eels to other fish. Otters eat whatever is present. I have spent some considerable time watching otters on the West Coast of Scotland, their main diet their is shellfish as that is what is easiest to catch. On Scottish rivers they mainly eat trout as again that is what is there. They used to eat salmon, but sadly the salmon farms have killed all the wild ones.

At present otters may well achieve numbers that are completely un sustainable by natural sources of food as a direct result of the many stocked lakes built around rivers that didn't exist until recently. Once these are either empty of fish or fenced the otters will have no choice but to seek food on the rivers, this will cause a very serious problem for fish stocks on rivers, but it is one created by the un wise building on stocked ponds every where rather than by the natural return of a native predator. I would say that in some areas this has happened already. The number of gravel pits that have become stocked with carp around the Great Ouse is a good example.

To argue for culling otters will only lead to a major backlash against anglers. To use public money to fence commercial fisheries in these times of financial hardship is only going to lead to a reduction in cash for doing longer term work to support and improve the river environment.

My point is not that otters are not a problem to commercial interests, just that it would be better for anglers who do not have a commercial interest to lobby for more cash to be spent on environmental improvements for rivers in order to provide a sustainable population of fish for us to catch and otters to eat. I think that would go down a lot better with the general public who have to foot the bill through taxes (the government doesn't actually have any money...it's all ours) than funding some sort of anti otter campaign.

The Angling Trust have achieved so much in recent years in establishing themselves as an important environmental body. They are listened too in high places. They are influencing Natural England on the cormorant issue. They are getting the cash that anglers pay in license fees directly spent on angling matters. They have influenced the water framework directive to great effect. All these things could be blown out of the water by running some sort of campaign against otters. Anglers will stand to loose a lot more than they gain in the longer term.

Let commercial fisheries finance fencing themselves and lets hope the AT does not take up the PAG's campaign.
Click to expand...

Many good points. Looking at the otter issue objectively, the more stocking of prey, the more predators. Once the prey have gone the predators either die or move on. I have witnessed cormorants literally clear a small fishery of its entire stock. I asked the non-fishing farmer who owned the lake if he had a cormorant problem, "No he said, I haven't seen any recently". It may be that we are just seeing the beginnings of an otter problem or it may settle down to an acceptable balance. Whatever happens, as anglers, we need to approach the issue rationally and not be emotive, which can be hard when you see a double figure barbel on the bank, partly eaten.
 
I'll second that, great post Pete. Again.

Nature Jon? How dare it create predators to feed on unnaturally fat, non-native carp!
 
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