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Reasons for Barbel population decline

Graham Elliott said:
Ok. Some answers from one of the main companies producing fish farm food.

1/ None of the regulated companys supplying food to the commercial salmon fish farming in the UK are alowed to add synthetic steroids or similar to their product.

2/ He was very concerned that a product produced for the Fish Farming business should be used unregulated in riverine environments.

3/ He was even more surprised of the ingested quantities shown in the previous scientific study I linked earlier. On four rivers up to 79percent of the food intake.

4/ He did say it would be damaging to the the fish's health.

5/ He stated that food used in the salmon Industry, eg elips type products, should not be used in riverine environments.

6/ He is going to do some detailed research fom their data bank to see if this includes a reduction in spawning viabilty or other outcomes.

He was very helpful and also concerned.

I will advise more when more info is received.


Graham
Click to expand...

Good work Graham.

Any chance you could copy his reply on here?

Edit to add

Surely where they sell tons and tons of the pellet to the fishing bait industry they must be aware that anglers would be chucking them in rivers and lakes?
 
Ash.

It was a verbal exchange after he e mailed me.

As I said he is going to do some more data research.

They do sell fish farm food for coarse fish farms. However, this was not the company that provided Elips to the market, that was a salmon product.

I wonder what the product that is elips now and sold by at least a couple of fish bait companies consists of and from what product definition it is? salmon? I have cheekily asked if they would be prepared to look at two types of fishing baits now on the market in tackle shops to see if they are salmon type. (You know the ones that leech oils)

I have asked for some advise for fisherman regarding the use of FF feed that is not specifically coarse fish feed.

I have also told him I see an opportunity in the market for a "Fish safe" product badged as same.

Graham
 
I hope I am not boring too many people!

I have asked two tackle trade suppliers of Eliptical pellets for a breakdown of their products constituents.

This should enable a view on their suitability for barbel from the FFarm producers and if they are produced on the same basis as Salmon farming high oil food pellets. with the view from one (who don't sell elips that salmon product would have a detrimental effect on coarse (white)fish health it will be interesting)

The second largest Fish farming food company have now responded with a contact who will be in touch with me I understand.

Graham
 
Well done Graham.
I have asked the EA for details regarding barbel stockings in UK rivers and also for any work that has been carried out on Endocrine Inhibitors and feminisation. It will take time for this data to be correlated and sent to me but I have confirmation emails stating that the process has started. I will post summary pages here when they arrive.
Keep up the good work.
Rich
 
It may be the pellets are harmful in large quantities, has the decline increased with so called "carbelling" i remember Ian Welch writing an article where he said once halibuts became popular, he had seen people with bulk pellets on their trolleys heading fro the river. I have sen numerous people on the Kennet, a small river, throwing in enough bait to feed he entire population of the tidal trent. When they dont catch they just come back and do the same thing again and wont listen.
 
Graham, good luck with your quest for information. I suspect that all 'interested' parties will have been reading this thread for some time. ;)
 
Rob.
Look at the pellet uptake pc in previous link.
79 pc of diet.

Anthony.
Having good exchanges with the 2 biggest ff suppliers. One that supplies elips to bait companies.


Also sent them breakdown analysis of popular elips on market.

Interestingly one took the view that they just sold on and not responsible for usage..

Asking them if product analysed is only suitable for salmon.

What effects might this have on general health and viability.

And any advice recommendations they would give for riverine cyprinad use
Awaiting more replies etc.

Dealing with 2 Specialist food scientists at companies.
Graham
 
Thanks Lol.
Hopefully our quest for reasons and solutions to the state of many rivers, not least the Severn,can be furthered here.
 
Well I await to see what the BS is going to do, I know Andrew Pledger is looking to do something with the BS...its initially in the BS's hands, Steve agrees with me, that we should looking for the reasons of the decline, especially on the rivers we have mentioned, it may give us an insight....quicker than we think
 
OK. I am awaiting quite a lot of information.

But from the research so far. And I think that this is vitally important to barbel Anglers and Anglers in general.


Taken from one of the Major Fish Farming Product Producers Catelogue.

The feed must match the species, size, biology,
environment and health of the fish

One of the Companies has advised that the incorrect feed could have a detrimental effect on the health of the fish. This is not an unknown area and quite a lot of research has been carried out in relation to high oil content and enlarged livers.

I don't believe what effect this, and possibly other effects could have on reproduction capability.

It seems that certainly one of the companies do not track end buyer usage of the product. ie fishing Bait suppliers.

I believe that one particular large use type of product available from different bait companies is simply a food for use as salmon feed in enclosed conditions.

Certainly not meeting the stated requirements.

The feed must match the species, size, biology,
environment and health of the fish



Large bait size, other sizes similar
Oil 34%
Protein 29%
Fibre 3%
Ash 4.9%
Calcium 0.8%
Phospherous 0.9%

I am aware these totals do not add up to 100pc but are as supplied.


I believe this formulation is SPECIFICALLY for salmonoid fish


My research continues.

Graham
 
Here's another one Graham, salmon feed pellet.

Oil 33%
Protein 38%
Fibre 1%
Ash 7%

Vitamin A 10000 iu/kg
Vitamin D 1500 iu/kg
Vitamin E 250 iu/kg

Contains: Fishmeal, fish oil, wheat, soya, maize gluten, wheat gluten, Vitamins and minerals
Copper Sulphate
Ethoxyquin (antioxidant)
Astaxanthin (pigment)
Canthaxnthin pigment)

Old batch.

Cheers
Bob
 
Opened a great post here Graham, finally we are getting a national view of our rivers and the mess they are in. Lets hope we can learn the reasons and get something done. Its only a pity that things are so dire in so many places before some people have acknowledged there is a problem at all. In fact some still say there is no problem and we are just all rubbish anglers now.
 
Thanks Bob that would confirm my views that the product on the market now is salmon feed specific.

What come as a surprise is that there is no control on their application apparently by some producers despite known and clearly stated problems.

Is it a case of profit before due dilligence?
 
I think its safe to say that the majority of pellet feed will contain between 55% and 75% oil and protein, and the levels of these two 'generics' may effect the growth rate, and maybe even the general health of the fish (e.g. their livers etc.) I also think that the kinds/types/sources of protein and oil may be important for growth and general health of the fish which are fed it. But I don't see how protein/fat content can have a (relatively) rapid effect on reproduction capability/extent of feminisation.
If something in the pellet feed has caused such changes, surely it will be some additive (if deliberately in the feed i.e. purposive), or some trace element (not added but there all the same.)..not "protein" or "oil"?
As an additive (i.e. deliberately added) it would most likely have an on-cost to the manufacturer, they wouldn't give it away...and would advertise its presence, and charge extra for it.
Basically what I'm suggesting is, if there IS a 'villain' in pellet feed that is leading to feminisation of male fish, I believe it would be a specific trace element, what laymen would call 'a chemical'.. not a generic 'oil' or 'protein'..and it certainly wouldn't be 'fibre' or 'ash'...IMHO.
ATVBA
Terry
 
It could be that the products just 'fell into use', with no real thought to the possible long term problems. Additionally, it was a quick way of making money, with the great bait race gathering momentum. I wouldn't be surprised if very little thought/research was done regarding the suitability for other species and potential long term effects., but would love to be proved wrong. After all, farmed fish have a limited life span and end up being destined for the plate. Those that 'escaped the plate' and their long term survival remain a mystery.

Trout pellets have been used by anglers for ages, predominantly carp anglers. I used them for feed/prebaiting for barbel many moons ago, but from memory there were not that many types available. From a bait ingredient catalogue circa 80's these were Trout pellet at 40% protein and Salmon/Trout Fry Crumb at 54%. The latter was a 'complete' food for bringing on salmon and trout fry and had quite a high oil content.

I have caught carp and barbel (and chub - no real surprise there) on pastes and baits made from pond food floating pellets specifically for carp/pond fish). However these are expensive - but formulated for pond fish and koi carp.

Interesting stuff
 
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