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Reasons for Barbel population decline

.*Hi Lee.
It's always a benefit to have the encyclopedic knowledge you possess here on BFW.

I think if you look back you will find that Lol has never committed to my theory regarding the damage to recruitment caused by Fish Farming pellet feed and any synthetic hormone additions. So its unfair to lump us together on this specific subject apart from the fact that we want a change of emphasis on certain areas by stakeholders

His main focus has always been water quality.

Regarding my thoughts, I will advise outcomes and responses when I have adequate and robust data to hand.

And I totally agree the statement you made regarding the problems faced. Its so important to seek out and either rule out or confirm all potential factors. .



Cheers.

Graham
 
Richard Longmuir said:
Wonder if our drinking water is similarly effected? We would see some very swift action if that was the case!!
Click to expand...

Richard back in 2007 when we had the floods .Mythe water treatment works situated on the banks of the River Severn at Tewkesbury was flooded and 350,000 people in Gloucestershire lost there water supply for about 2 weeks .
I and all the other people had to collect bottled water from various collection points .

I don't know how the process works when they draw water from the river and how it is treated before it is sent down the pipes and the taps are opened in peoples homes .

I assume the process they use strips every thing out before it is fit for human consumption .
I find it ironic that Severn/Trent that run the water treatment plant .
Probably run the all sewer treatment works further up the River Severn . That they have to strip out every thing they put in the river from further up from the sewerage treatment plants they run that discharges the water back in the Severn
 
Lee....I am not tub thumping for anyone, most especially the BS, they can champion their own cause, but we do need them and their support, but they disagree with me somewhat, who do I tub thump for...... the Barbel most definitely, and I am certainly not convinced about the effects of pellets, but it is food for thought,and I certainly wouldn't throw it out, however I do buy into the effects of the feminisation of male Barbel, and I have to say you are wrong about the Trent not receiving any stockings, the Trent around the Rugely area has received many 1000's of juvenile Barbel, this was confirmed by Calverton in writing to Ray Walton just a few weeks ago under the FOI act when he asked for details of historical Trent stockings and its on the EA's various West Midlands fisheries report's, the most latest being 2013 .

thanks

Lawrence
 
Just a quick look and found between sept to dec 2012 ,stone, 1200 barbel,weston 1200 barbel, hoo mill 1200 barbel,rudgerly 1200 barbel yoxall 1200 barbel info from the Enviroment agency site.12 jan 2010 36,500 fish into the burton area , 9 dec 2009 ,24,000 fish into the Trent at stone plus another 18,000 fish on 14 dec.These were just from quick looks.It would be good to know the exact details if Ray got them,and would post them.
 
Joe Fletcher said:
Richard back in 2007 when we had the floods .Mythe water treatment works situated on the banks of the River Severn at Tewkesbury was flooded and 350,000 people in Gloucestershire lost there water supply for about 2 weeks .
I and all the other people had to collect bottled water from various collection points .

I don't know how the process works when they draw water from the river and how it is treated before it is sent down the pipes and the taps are opened in peoples homes .

I assume the process they use strips every thing out before it is fit for human consumption .
I find it ironic that Severn/Trent that run the water treatment plant .
Probably run the all sewer treatment works further up the River Severn . That they have to strip out every thing they put in the river from further up from the sewerage treatment plants they run that discharges the water back in the Severn
Click to expand...

It was likely because the drinking water treatment plant was flooded.
 
It's quite amazing how many statements are treated as fact, unless they are actually investigated.

Well done to Mark and Lol for investigating the frequent claims that the Trent has limited or no stocking of fish. Well Done Ray. Well Done Guys.

Graham
 
I have received further information regarding my theory.

I hope to be able to publish details from my eminent and respected source once he agrees to be named in the reply or otherwise.


Cheers

Graham
 
With his permission I wanted to share some conversations I have been having with Professor Charles Tyler. An eminent Scientist concerned with exactly the subject we have been discussing of asexual fish and lack of recruitment.

Professor Tyler was the leader in the following research and I would suggest you look at the link below, that Lol Breakspear had added earlier, then review the exchange.


Charles Tyler - Ecotoxicology and Aquatic Biology Research Group - University of Exeter

Dear Professor Tyler

There is currently a large debate going on within the coarse Fishing community specifically relating to Barbel (Barbus Barbus).

Over the past eight years or so there is a notable decline in these fish in many rivers. In fact a survey I carried out revealed that 79% of anglers thought their river was in decline. 50% of the total in severe decline. (The river Trent seems to buck this trend).

Over 200 anglers took part.

Aware of the problems with hormones, etc. in the rivers, as highlighted by a number of scientific papers, I tried to establish why the problem seems so prevalent over such a short period.

Sightings of spawning fish have also markedly declined however the average size of the fish has risen markedly.

Some rivers are showing as many as 70% captures being over 10lb. The 2-7lb fish that would normally make up 95% of captures are simply not around.

It’s normally accepted in barbel that females can reach around double the weight of males.

Now, I have a theory I would like you view on if you would be so kind.

Around 10-12 years ago a revolution in fishing bait took place. Nearly every angler switched to commercial Fish Farming Pellets. Mainly Elips from EWOS or another company, Skrettering.

Anglers have used these or other products from FF Suppliers since. Vast quantities have been used. Many anglers using between 1 and 5k each on some of the rivers that now seem fairly barren.

The most significant change is in the last 5 years.

I wondered if it was likely that these products would have had a synthetic steroid such as MT and this could be the cause of our current crisis through uncontrolled use.

The manufacturers never promoted the products for anglers’ baits.

Other causative reasons that are being investigated are Predation. Crayfish. Spawning grounds silted and obviously water quality. I am worried my theory above is not being considered.

I would really appreciate your views.

Kind regards

Graham Elliott


Dear Graham

Thanks for your email. A tricky one to answer to say the very least. Working out reasons for fish population changes and declines is notoriously difficult. Even where there is a strong association between a population level decline and say a particular pollutant, actually proving this is the case is an extremely rare event. If only it were easier, I am sure we would have cleaner rivers and lower pollution limits!

Barbel of course is a fantastic fish and sitting where it does in the aquatic food web is affected not only by the water quality directly but by so many other organisms in the aquatic food web. Gain or loss of fish from a fishery could relate to food availability generally. Equally it could relate to poor recruitment. Poor recruitment has been anecdotal reported for many UK rivers. In other areas there appears to be over recruitment where high nutrient input mean species such as roach are breeding to a high level (but equally the size of fish demographic has changed – i.e. lots of small fish and fewer larger ones).

So called Endocrine disrupting chemical undoubtedly affect the sex in fish in some of the more heavily polluted regions of UK rivers – for roach at least.

Whether they affect barbel I do not know. But likely so, if they are found in the same river stretches as roach. Barbel though do o course tend to like faster flowing waters, which are often cleaner.

Your theory is not a crazy one at all regarding diet and effect in fish. We know that for some cyprinid fish a faster growth rate means they are more likely to become females. So if the rivers are being stuffed with high protein feed it could be food rate alone that causes more females to be found there.

Whether the diet contains some hormones or chemicals that mimic Hormones I do not know, but it is very possible and this could affect fish sex etc. It is even possible that these chemicals could affect breeding rate too. The honest answer though is that I do not know, as I have no idea what goes into those diets. High protein meal (say animal meat/fat) from parts of Europe of S America could be loaded with hormones.

Graham it is certainly a conundrum and a worrying one if you care about these fish and the environment as you clearly do.

I wish I could offer more enlightenment. I have spent my whole career trying to protect wild fisheries and get so frustrated with the slow progress in all of this.

All good wishes

Charles






Dear Charles

I would one again like to sincerely thank you for spending the time looking at this and giving your opinion.

I realise that time will be precious for you, but I have real concerns so please would you express a view on the following. As I said, I don’t believe there has been any investigation on my theory for the drastic decline and want to inspire some detailed research. I suspect the EA are not even aware of the products fishermen use or the main source or purpose.

A recent research paper

http://link.springer.com/article/10....027-014-0370-7


Indicates that barbel are very reliant on pellets as a food source, exceptionally so, up to 79% in some rivers with 57% being average of 3 or 4 rivers tested. In my opinion it is an amazing statistic.

If this food basic was indeed Fish Farming products with MT or similar synthetic steroid added, do you feel this is likely to have an effect on the fishes ability – especially a cyprinid like barbus barbus – to recruit successfully?

I have obtained some of the products produced in early 2000 and hope at some stage to have them tested as no response from the manufacturers as yet.

I won’t bother you anymore but don’t want to feel totally wrong in putting forward my theory and would like to be able to divert some resources to investigate further.

With kindest regards

Graham Elliott






Dear Graham

I never realised that fish in some of our rivers were so heavily reliant on fish pellets – the stats are quite amazing.

If indeed the pellets have MT as a significant additive I wonder why this is. I presume it acts to help promote growth in some way. Skretting may tell you why they add it? I would suggest however that they have strong androgens in feed is probably not good for the environment. It of course depended on what levels are added and how much is retained in the fish and/or passes out into the environment.

MT is an interesting hormone that my team has worked on in the past. It is sometimes called a non-aromatisable androgen. That is hormones such as testosterone can be converted to oestrogen by aromatase (an enzyme found in gonads and the brain), but in theory MT cannot be converted to oestrogen. However there are now quite a few reports in the literature that in fact in fish MT can be converted to oestrogen. This being the case in theory it could feminise fish. Oestrogen of course is a well-known growth promoter that has been used in the livestock trade in the past to induce somatic growth.

Hope some of this is useful.

Good wishes.

Charles


The lack of recruitment is being seen and recognised pretty much countrywide. Thats a fact. Along with Lol's excellent work on river quality, I now believe we should be now accepting that there is a possibility of the damage to fish being from the main food source in many rivers over a number of years, surely it deserves some further investigation.

Graham
 
As of now I have had no response from the two largest FF pellet producers regarding the additions to their feed products.

My next step is to try and get samples of the product used in the early years analysed and if the Freedom of Information Act works for Scandanavian based companies ask the question.

Lee Fletcher indicated in an earlier post here his thoughts or maybe actual facts.

IF a valid link is proven, the next step would be to evaluate current products on the market.


Graham
 
Lee Fletcher

hello lee, ever thought about posting some of your tales about on the riverbank mate, i used to find these a rivetting read and nobody does this kind of posting of stories and stuff on bfw apart from the rare occasion so how about jumping straight in and showing the other guys what they missed,
whatever way its good to see your still fishing mate:)....jw
 
Hi Lol,

For someone who asked.

A good example of how the water treatment industry works regarding a guide to the limits of chemicals present in the UK can be read here;

http://www.southeastwater.co.uk/media/116347/Water_Quality_Explained_SEW.pdf

Be aware though that many of our rivers are failing to reach the standards as laid out by the EU Water Directive.

To my knowledge, no stocking of barbel has ever taken place in the Trent. If what you say is true, and that a stocking of barbel has taken place in the last few weeks or even prior to that in the Rugely area directly into the river Trent then I know nothing about it. Can you please post exact details of this stocking on here so I can have it confirmed by Calverton team leader Alan Henshaw. Strange that in previous correspondence with Ray Walton, much of it very recently, he never once mentioned barbel stocking in the Rugely area. Even so, I would very much like to see the correspondence confirming this from Calverton as would many other Trent based barbel anglers I would imagine.

For those perhaps unaware of the work that Calverton do go here for more information;

https://environmentagency.blog.gov.uk/2014/04/02/egg-citing-times-down-on-the-fish-farm/

I have spoken to my contacts within the bait trade and contacts within the Aquaculture Industry who are monitoring this thread obviously because this particular trade is worth an incredible amount of money. Given that you now say this particular tub is not being thumped by you Lol I look forward to reading the evidence Graham has from his eminent and reliable source.

However, I am more than happy to provide links and attribute information from expert opinion simply because there is a massive amount of data already out there on the internet. I don’t deal in hearsay but rely on factual evidence as and when it comes to me from a variety of sources. I am wondering why Graham is seemingly relying on just one source, providing his source agrees to have his opinion published, when there is like I say a huge amount of information out there in the public domain already??

According the the United Nations Food & Agriculture Organization, “With capture fisheries production stagnating, major increases in fish food production are forecast to come from aquaculture. Taking into account the population forecast, an additional 27 million tonnes of production will be needed to maintain the present level of per capita consumption in 2030.â€
And interestingly, “Globally, aquaculture supplies more that 50 percent of all seafood produced for human consumption – that percentage has been and will continue to rise. Conventional wisdom holds that traditional fisheries are producing near their maximum capacity and that future increases in seafood production must come largely from aquaculture. Experts at the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization say we will need another 40 million tons of seafood worldwide per year by 2030 just to meet current consumption rates.â€

World Ocean Review says;

“Aquaculture has drawn huge criticism in recent decades, not only for its feeding of fishmeal and fish oil. The use of antibiotics in breeding has also been condemned. Fish farmed in intensive systems to provide maximum yields are more susceptible to disease than their relatives in the wild. For this reason antibiotics and other drugs are widely used, especially in South East Asia. Already there are signs that these are no longer effective. In 2011 almost the entire shrimp production in Mozambique was destroyed by a viral disease. In 2012 the infection broke out on breeding farms along the coast of Madagascar. Experts blame the mass production of shrimps on factory farms. The antibiotics can in turn find their way through the food chain into the human body, potentially impacting on consumer health.

The antibiotics used in aquaculture and on other fattening farms – and also from hospital effluent – have in recent years led to the spread of multi-resistant pathogens, against which most established antibiotics are ineffective. Only special or newly-developed agents can help against multidrug-resistant infections. It is imperative therefore that the use of antibiotics in food production is strictly monitored and restricted.

The effluent from aquaculture operations is polluting rivers and coastal waters in other areas. However, the situation varies from region to region. In Norway, for example, production methods have improved as salmon farming has intensified and professionalized. Pollution with organic wastes (excreta) has reduced as a result of improved feeding techniques. And thanks to modern vaccines the use of antibiotics has almost completely been abandoned.

Scientists are working hard to reduce both the amount of additional feed used in aquaculture and in particular the FIFO ratio. One approach is to develop crop-based feedstuffs which are rich in protein. The problem is that fishmeal contains a high percentage of protein, about 60 per cent, which is essential to build muscle mass. Rapeseed (canola), however, contains only 20 to 25 per cent. For this reason the researchers are trying to produce protein extracts, varying the amount of different proteins to ensure the feed is very easily digested and converted to body mass. Rapeseed is showing particular promise. This crop is utilized extensively for bioethanol (biodiesel) production: the large amounts of plant waste which accumulate would be suitable feedstock for aquaculture.

Protein can also be extracted from potatoes. Trials have been carried out using various different combinations of potato protein. Up to 50 per cent of fishmeal could be saved without any negative impact on the growth of the farmed fish. Alternative feedstuffs can also achieve the opposite result, however. So-called anti-nutrients can have a disastrous effect. These are substances which are poorly utilized by the fish and can induce metabolic disorders.

Scientists are convinced that feeding farmed fish with a combination of different ingredients is the most efficient approach. This would further reduce the use of expensive fishmeal and lower the FIFO ratio. It would make little sense to dispense with fishmeal and fish oil completely, however. Both provide essential omega-3 fatty acids which come from plankton. Fish cannot produce these themselves but ingest them with their food. If they are fed only plant-based feedstuffs, the farmed fish will lack these essential fatty acids, thus defeating the object. Such omega-3 fatty acids are one of the main reasons that consumers choose to eat fish.â€

Learn more about aquaculture here; Eco-friendly aquaculture « World Ocean Review

Now for a small sample of the opinions on MT and other ;

Dr. Roderick D. O’Sullivan BDS, M.Sc. an international expert on salmon farming wrote this. Might scare the pants off some. Go here;

The Salmon Farm Monitor

This one is from America and involves the use of MT in feed for the production of predominately male species of Tilapia. Go Here;

file:///C:/Users/lee/Downloads/Aquaculture%202007%20Barry.pdf

Quite a lot available regarding Tilapia especially as MT is widely used in Egypt

This Spanish one is for Sea Bass in relation to steroid use in feed;

http://digital.csic.es/bitstream/10261/47797/1/sex steroid-induced.pdf

I could actually go on and on giving out links to papers written by experts in this field together with another comprehensive list of books published on the same theme. As I said, there is an incredible amount of stuff already out there on the subject of steroids in fish feed. Whether papers exist that explains or confirms the use of MT in pellets sold to anglers for use in the UK I can’t say simply because I cannot find anything to confirm it.

The crux however, appears to be Grahams hypothesis that pellets have been sold in the UK that contain sex changing chemicals which have resulted directly in the demise of barbel in some of our rivers? Now seeing as pellets begin to melt the moment they are in contact with water, which of course renders their contents available to every single aquatic creature in the river, are we to presume that Grahams hypothesis has also resulted in the demise of all fish, seeing as even tiny minnows can eat melting pellets? Perch for example have grown to their pre-1960’s sizes and are breeding very successfully. And accordingly this demise must have spread throughout the species of piscavarious birds because they also all eat fish? The fact is this simply hasn’t happened has it with fish eating birds all doing well?

Also as I recall, the feminisation of roach has highlighted over 25 years ago? And wasn’t it deemed that this appeared to be a result of natural and synthetic steroidal estrogens and chemicals that mimic estrogens mostly found near outfalls from sewerage works?
A really good article to read on this particular subject is from the Oxford Journals entitled Roach, Sex, and Gender-Bending Chemicals: The Feminization of Wild Fish in English Rivers

Read this here; Roach, Sex, and Gender-Bending Chemicals: The Feminization of Wild Fish in English Rivers

Regards,

Lee.
 
I have looked at Tylers profile and there in no mention of him doing any studies regarding MT's in fish feed pellets that might have been sold to anglers?

I'll read your exchanged correspondence now.

Regards,

Lee.
 
Hi Graham,

Quote directly from Tyler who said;

"Whether the diet contains some hormones or chemicals that mimic Hormones I do not know, "

Rather damning Graham. Not only has your expert not undertaken any research what so ever on the subject of MT's in fish feed pellets sold by tackle dealers to UK anglers, he hasn't undertaken any research on fish feed pellets at all!!

The guy didn't even know that fish feed pellets were being used so extensively on some of our rivers today! Hardly an expert on the subject is he?

You are going to have to try a lot harder than this mesun if you are seeking to get Angling Trust help over this particular tub thump. Given that match anglers also use pellets, and match men are a powerful force inside AT, I'm guessing they won't be touching any of this with a very long roach pole.

Regards,

Lee.
 
Thank you for your extensive reply Lee.

And indeed i had previously read a lot of the links that you have highlightef.

I think you missed quite a lot of the provisos I made regarding ff products and the commercial products that in many cases have replaced them and in many cases have been because the commercial fisheries realised the potential damage being caused.

You also missed the if / research / analysis bit.

At the moment I am trying to find what a tub is.
Can you be more specific please?

Graham.
 
Lee, i just Googled, Calverton trent barbel stockings and similar searches and when searching through the pages the results came up that i posted plus some others like the 95,000 fish restocking into the trent and tame during 2010,the largest stocking ever by Calverton. I also came across a goverment page looking for companies to bid/tender to supply fish food to Calverton. I think that getting the complete stocking data of all rivers supplied by Calverton since they started should be something that the Barbel society should hold and make available.Like the river records,its an important part of Barbel History in this country.
 
If there is any doubt that any feed is damaging the health / recruitment of Barbel then perhaps we as Barbel anglers should take it upon ourselves to not use manufactured pellet? Even if there was proof that that pellet is a problem, a blanket ban would not be feasible.

A reckon there is a opportunity for a bespoke, safe pellet that we could use.
 
Neil. I think it needs a lot more investigation before any conclusions are made.

But I do believe I have detailed enough concern that means it should be investigated.

You may recall I approached this from the angle of

Whats caused the serious decline over a relatively short 10 year period and wondered what had changed.

Im not convinced that habitat alone would cause such drastic downturn and water quality issues have been on going for 50 years. And the cumulative effect must also be enormous.
 
Graham Elliott said:
Neil. I think it needs a lot more investigation before any conclusions are made.

But I do believe I have detailed enough concern that means it should be investigated.

You may recall I approached this from the angle of

Whats caused the serious decline over a relatively short 10 year period and wondered what had changed.

Im not convinced that habitat alone would cause such drastic downturn and water quality issues have been on going for 50 years. And the cumulative effect must also be enormous.
Click to expand...
Graham,
That was my thoughts that a self imposed ban might be jumping the gun but whilst any doubts there are, we might want to consider what use so freely.

It is however a concern that many have and rightly so that there seems to to be more than a single cause to the barbel's demise, but I am grateful that you and others are shining a light on probable causes, if we as Barbel anglers don't, no one else will.

What never fails to astound me is the quality of the posts on here from folk who are just not willing to see things slip any further.
 
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