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Reasons for Barbel population decline

Lee did you find out any more about Trent stockings.

I know as a die in the wool Trent Man you normally know everything that happens on the River, Mesun

Graham.
 
Lee if you go back to page 1 Graham clearly states that is concern is with initial stocks of pellets that were used all came from the fish farming industry and that were the only ones available for a number of years .
It was only some years later that the fish friendly ones were being produced by the bait manufactures ?
 
Anglian Water, East of England
Consortium consisting of Canada Pension Plan Investment Board, Colonial First State Global Asset Management, IFM Investors and 3i

Dŵr Cymru, Welsh Water Wales
Glas Cymru

Northumbrian Water, North East England
Cheung Kong Infrastructure Holdings

Severn Trent Water, West Midlands, East Midlands
None (listed on London Stock Exchange)

Southern Water, South East England
Greensands Holdings

South West Water, South West England
Pennon Group

Thames Water, Greater London, Thames Valley
Kemble Water Limited

United Utilities North West England
None (listed on London Stock Exchange)

Wessex Water, South West England
YTL Corporation

Yorkshire Water, Yorkshire and the Humber
Kelda Group

These are all the Water/Sewage companies in the UK and more importantly, who really owns them...

If your looking at taking on the Water companies because of pollution issues, you will need to understand who you are firstly taking on..
 
Hi Graham,

Tis true I have fished the Trent since I was six. Been a long time. Hardly any barbel in the river back then and those that did cling on after the ravages of pollution were tatty individuals. Years ago, if one wanted to catch a double figure barbel or indeed a thirty pound carp one had to travel South. How times have changed with the Trent being the king of UK rivers now.

Firstly, apologies.

I did know about the pollution incidents in the Upper river in 2009 that sparked off the EA re-stocking for the area after thousands of fish died but was not aware that 6000 barbel, 1200 in each section, were stocked into Stone, Weston, Hoo-Mill, Rugely Power Station and Yoxall. Also spoke to Ray Walton today and he sent me copies of his correspondence with Calverton although Calverton did not furnish him with dates for these stockings. It is my understanding that these stockings took place in 2011.

Whilst 6000 barbel appears to be a large number, I would estimate that a significant number would leave the area whilst many more would fall prey to predation. I have known twice this number to have been stocked into a far smaller river locally and most of their number also migrated down river so this would appear to be a trend?

Regards,

Lee.
 
Hi Again Graham,

This 10 year decline you speak about, does it really makes sense or stand up to scrutiny? If it were down to a simple reason of these type of pellets you speak of, why hasn't every other species of fish been affected in the same way barbel appear to have been on some rivers? Like I said, which no one answered by the way, what about fish eating birds? Have these declined along with so called declining populations or have had their breeding cycles altered because they have been eating fish supposedly infected with MT's? The Trent has a very high number of fish eating birds and Kingfishers are on the increase nationally according to the RSPB.

So what is behind the declines of wild fish stocks on some rivers? Water quality as we know is falling behind the standards as laid down by the EU Water Directive. Is this alone responsible? I seriously doubt it. Agricultural practices, are they solely responsible for ongoing destruction of spawning habitats? The Salmon and Trout Association think it has a lot to do with it and I agree. But is this alone causing the problem on some of our rivers?

The river Trent is fortunate in that most of the land directly adjacent to the river on both banks is predominantly pasture and even along the Trent Valley as a whole 28% of the land is pasture. And given that the spawning habitat along the Trent is excellent has agricultural practices got a lot to do with the river Trent's on going success?

Your other theory of Boom and Bust periods for rivers doesn't make sense either Graham. If it were a case of that then we merely accept this as some type of reason where we all have to simply wait it out until particular rivers come good again?

What about water treatment plants? An extract from the roach research, which Tyler is best known for,

" We set up an extensive survey to investigate this hypothesis. Rainbow trout and carp (Cyprinus carpio) were placed in cages in or close to the effluent discharges at 28 WWTW throughout England and Wales, and we measured blood VTG concentrations after a two-to three-week exposure period (Purdom et al. 1994). The results were astonishing. Almost all of the effluents studied were estrogenic and induced up to a millionfold increase in the amount of circulating VTG in males. Some concentrations of VTG measured in males were in excess of 50 milligrams per milliliter, representing more than half the blood protein content. These concentrations were higher than those found in fully mature females with thousands of large, yolky eggs in their ovaries. The phenomenon of estrogenic effluents has subsequently been established more widely across Europe—for example, in Germany (Hecker et al. 2002), Sweden (Larsson et al. 1999), Denmark (Bjerregaard et al. 2006), Portugal (Diniz et al. 2005), Switzerland (Vermeirssen et al. 2005), and the Netherlands (Vethaak et al. 2005)—and in the United States (Folmar et al. 1996), Japan (Higa****ani et al. 2003), and China (Ma et al. 2005).

Further studies using caged fish (rainbow trout, carp, and roach) and measuring VTG induction have demonstrated that WWTW effluent discharges in the United Kingdom vary widely in their estrogenic potency, depending on the influents received by the WWTW, the level and type of treatment that takes place in the WWTW (Kirk et al. 2002), and the level of influent and effluent dilution (Williams et al. 2003). Seasons also have been shown to affect the estrogenic potency of effluent, probably in connection with changes in the level of microbial activity (Harries et al. 1999). Studies on rivers receiving treated WWTW effluent have shown that the estrogenic activity can persist in the receiving rivers for many kilometers downstream of the point source of discharges and with considerable dilution of the effluent (Harries et al. 1995, 1997, Rodgers-Gray et al. 2000, 2001, Liney et al. 2005). Effluent concentrations as low as only 10% have been shown to induce a vitellogenic response in juvenile roach exposed for four months, and this effect concentration may be even lower for longer-term exposures (Rodgers-Gray et al. 2000). These findings have important implications for wild roach populations that spend much or all of their lives in effluent-contaminated rivers, where the river flow is often composed of 10% WWTW effluent (figure 2). In some rivers in the United Kingdom, during the summer months and periods of low water flow, half of the flow of the river can be composed of WWTW effluent, and in the most extreme cases, the complete flow of the river can be made up of treated WWTW effluent (Jobling et al. 1998). This situation in the United Kingdom is somewhat unusual compared with mainland Europe and the United States, where dilution rates in rivers are generally far higher. Indeed, this very likely explains why levels of VTG induction in wild male fish in the allied carp family in mainland European and US rivers are generally lower than those levels in wild roach in English rivers."

From my understanding of just some of the problems our rivers face, apart from cases of severe pollution which is caused by sheer negligence, you should be looking closely at agricultural practices adjacent to the rivers you suspect are in decline generally whilst looking at the water quality especially the levels of certain chemicals entering our rivers from water treatment outfalls.

Lastly, there is the case for looking at predation along some rivers. We already know for instance that the Upper Great Ouse and The Wensum have suffered the loss of huge barbel via otter predation. How many other Southern rivers are similarly affected?

This whole subject is huge and if way too big for the BS to take on because they don't have the number of members, the expertise or the money. Neither has the Angling Trust or the EA Fisheries who are strapped hard for cash already. We already have the organisations in place to take this job on and its the Rivers Trusts many of which are already on the case for rivers and their wild fish populations.

Regards,

Lee.
 
Hi Lee.
Just quickly as I am preparing for some tench and carp fishing.

Last ten years. Most definately in the last 5-10 years a noted decline in barbel numbers on the majority of rivers have been noted by barbel anglers. Please refer to the Survey here adding in the same response from over 100 anglers on bookface or something similar.

Birds etc. I don't have any idea about the birds digestive system so have no idea if they are affected in the same way as fish.

Other fishy species. The life cycle of many fish that you mention is relatively short as is the time element to breed against that of a barbel. Therefore it makes sense that decline would show quicker and recovery would be quicker in the instance of fish friendly baits.
Certainly many rivers that roach/dace were once prolific had a major decline over the 10 year period but the recovery certainly on the Thames/Loddon/Kennet is in place I would suggest. Certainly the last few years on the Trent is showing a tremendous surge in roach numbers.

Hope that clarifies.......now, time to try and beat the 38lb carp or 9.12 tench pb standing.

Cheers


Graham
 
Hi Lee,
Very good post, and no doubt another factor along with others..

Your right when you mention the problem as huge, personally I wouldent hold my breath with the Rivers Trust either..

They receive funding from the EA which is quite ironic given that the EA know what the problem or problems are..

I think its fair to say that, the real solution to the problems is Major Investment in Agriculture practices and also Water treatment etc...

Not likely to happen for some time and indeed already many years too late in most cases..

I think people will still be talking about the problems in 5 years time or more, with lots of reasons as to why, but still no solutions..

Profit before the environment is the real problem..
 
Not sure if anyone has made the following, albeit somewhat simplistic, statement but...
I reckon there may be a correlation between river size and the degree of decline. That is, smaller (more 'intimate') river have suffered the most. And, from this.. the larger the river, the longer it going to take for the barbel population to be wiped out.
But first sign will be, fewer small fish being caught so average/mean will rise.. year on year.
 
Terry you have made a good observation, I have said virtually the same, but in a different way, its generally known the tributaries seem to lose their Barbel first, perhaps because of the decline in Barbel on the main river, the examples are there, the Severn and Teme, the Thames and Windrush, the Wye and Lugg etc., this is because Barbel from the main source have reduced, its only increasing Barbel numbers on the main river that cause the colonization of the tributaries, it also stands up that if fresh fish are not pushing on into tributaries, then those populations quickly decline, due to natural reasons, poor handling by anglers and predators, I have said for some time that the problem with the Teme is the declining numbers in the Severn, the EA know this and I believe know the reasons, this is why they continue to "strengthen" any existing Barbel population by stocking fingerlings on a national scale.
 
Terry you have made a good observation, I have said virtually the same, but in a different way, its generally the tributaries that seem to lose their Barbel first, perhaps because of the decline in Barbel on the main river, the examples are there, the Severn and Teme, the Thames and Windrush, the Wye and Lugg etc., this is because Barbel from the main source have reduced, its only increasing Barbel numbers on the main river that cause the colonization of the tributaries, it also stands up that if fresh fish are not pushing on into tributaries, then those populations quickly decline, due to natural reasons, poor handling by anglers and predators, I have said for some time that the problem with the Teme is the declining numbers in the Severn, the EA know this and I believe know the reasons, this is why they continue to "strengthen" any existing Barbel population by stocking fingerlings on a national scale.

Well yes it is a pretty obvious fact that the smaller rivers have suffered greatly, and has occupied my thoughts as to why, given that the Barbel, and I think I am right in saying mostly seek out rivers such as the Teme to spawn, and then spend some time 'kicking back' after the event.

So as to why Barbel do not enter the Teme is perhaps the number one place to look at as a study that might shed some light on as to what the problem is. The Teme would be the classic 'go to' river for spawning I would think, plenty of good quality pollution free water, well oxygenated, and for many miles avoiding urbanised stretches.

And yet the decline has been rapid, certainly post 2007 floods, and the spread of Otter, do Barbel posses an instinct that deters them from spawning in a area that has a large number of predators, or Man's influence? Certainly man's influence has been apparent for a number of years and that did not seem, previously to affect numbers in spawning.

So we might be looking at something that has had a major effect over a very short time line, if we were to look at de-sexation of males as the cause, surely we would see a more gradual decline?

Which leads me to one of a few more culprits, water quality, change of habitat (biblical flooding) or the Otter. If I was a betting man I would not wager that water quality was the No 1 suspect here, but habitat change and Mr 'O' I might want in for more questioning :rolleyes:
 
Terry.
Most definitely. I have alluded to the effects on larger rivers being slower to manifest itself here and on the BS site.

Graham
 
I have copied this from Karen Twines Great Ouse barbel study (its on or around p40 for those who have a copy).

--------------------
The presence of barbel in rivers indicates high quality river habitat (Environment Agency 2007b) and although natural fluctuations may account for some of the variability of barbel populations over time (Frear & Cowx 2003), the species is under pressure from a range of factors and they are becoming increasingly threatened (Penez et al. 2002).

Barbel are a long lived species that mature late and as a result, changes in their population structure caused by habitat pressures can take many years to become apparent. The decline of barbel numbers in rivers has been noticed in UK rivers such as the Great Ouse and the Thames, where although not on the UK biodiversity priority list (UK BAP 2001), they are "considered by the Environment Agency to be of local biodiversity importance" (Vizilli et al. 2006). In some rivers throughout central Europe, such as Poland (Witkowski 1991) and Czech Republic (Penaz et al. 2005) the barbel is also regarded as a threatened species. Concerns about the species population arise from the fact that it is sensitive to pollution and to physical alterations of the stream ecosystem. This is especially true for rivers that have been and still are, affected by: fragmentation; regulation; water quality; habitat quality and climate change, all previously mentioned in Chapter 2.

------------------------------------------------

As has been highlighted, water quality and habitat are significant factors in the barbels decline.
 
Terry you have made a good observation, I have said virtually the same, but in a different way, its generally known the tributaries seem to lose their Barbel first, perhaps because of the decline in Barbel on the main river, the examples are there, the Severn and Teme, the Thames and Windrush, the Wye and Lugg etc., this is because Barbel from the main source have reduced, its only increasing Barbel numbers on the main river that cause the colonization of the tributaries, it also stands up that if fresh fish are not pushing on into tributaries, then those populations quickly decline, due to natural reasons, poor handling by anglers and predators, I have said for some time that the problem with the Teme is the declining numbers in the Severn, the EA know this and I believe know the reasons, this is why they continue to "strengthen" any existing Barbel population by stocking fingerlings on a national scale.

I am not sure that all tributaries' barbel population are regulated by the main rivers population. The Cherwell for instance has, or did have, it's own breeding and thriving population of barbel. I doubt if many, indeed any of the fish from a certain distance upstream had ever been anywhere near the Thames, nor the predecessors of these fish. Originally the species would have migrate rom the Thames and periodically other fish would have come up as well. But that is not to discount the Cherwells own indigenous population that are Cherwell fish and nothing to do at all with Thames fish. It also has to be considered that on many rivers the presence of weirs means migrating fish can only move so far up a tributary anyway,
 
Without a doubt all the tributaries I have mentioned and including the Cherwell, I have never said they hadn't had their own breeding populations, but those same breeding populations were heavily influenced by the traveling Barbel from the main river that go up and come down these tributaries, this is fact. What you need to take into account Alex is how Barbel swim over weirs in times of high water, there is enough anecdotal evidence and scientific study to back this up, Barbel can and do swim up stream and down stream, they may stay around in a particular river, but they do swim back to the main river, whether they were born there of not, its all about the movement of a shoal or a group of fish, or how the host river aka the tributary may change in its volume, its environment or water quality, But I believe that most tributaries lose their Barbel long before the main river does, the evidence is there before us.
 
Ash.
What I cant understand is the habitat change bit.

Has it really changed in the last whatever years

And so many rivers?

Water quality I can understand. But habitat?

Graham
 
One thing that did happen Gra, in the early 2000's was the so called flood defense scheme on the Teme, this was infact various group's of NRA operatives with chainsaws, diggers etc. that took out long established willows, straightened bends, removed sunken trees, ripped out bulrush and other bank side vegetation......all that happened once this vandalism had taken place was a profusion of Himalayan balsam and floods downstream from where "improvement" works took place.....oh yes, and the Barbel started to disappear also....
 
As above really. I know of a few incidents of the vandalism described by Lol on the Great Ouse. Even areas where pipe reeds take over the stream and thus reducing the flow will have a huge affect on all the barbel habitat of it downstream.

Habitat issues could also include dried or silted up spawning beds.

Water quality is no doubt a more significant variable in all this but habitat issues will also play a part.
 
Ok. Some answers from one of the main companies producing fish farm food.

1/ None of the regulated companys supplying food to the commercial salmon fish farming in the UK are alowed to add synthetic steroids or similar to their product.

2/ He was very concerned that a product produced for the Salmon Fish Farming business should be used unregulated in riverine environments.

3/ He was even more surprised of the ingested quantities shown in the previous scientific study I linked earlier. On four rivers up to 79percent of the food intake.

4/ He did say it would be damaging to the the fish's health.

5/ He stated that food used in the salmon Industry, eg elips type products, should not be used in riverine environments.

6/ He is going to do some detailed research fom their data bank to see if this includes a reduction in spawning viabilty or other outcomes.

He was very helpful and also concerned.

I will advise more when more info is received.


Graham
 
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