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Reasons for Barbel population decline

Who are the companies selling the pellets to the fishing industry?

I know of Skettrings as a producer, but not sure if they market products to anglers rather anglers seek there products out.

It seems Coppens do actually target anglers so if they are a producer (which I think they are?) then they should have tailored their baits accordingly.
 
Good thread this, I've been dipping in and out of it and trying to keep up!
There must have been an abundance of these pellets going into carp puddles for years now, has there ever been any study or evidence gathered on the effects here? I know these places get stocked regularly but you'd think some effects would have been noticed?
 
Rhys I think you will find many of the places insist in their own pellets being used. or none at all.

They will be fish friendly (developed for coarse fish) this was because of problems experienced.

Graham
 
I will hopefully get that info for 100% at the weekend Derek...as far as I can see there are two major manufacturers and I think that Graham is able to confirm that.
The critical thing with all this debate is that no stone is left unturned....without what is going on here nothing would be happening and nothing would change. There is a combination of issues that are working together...not just one so to examine all is important. The task then is to get scientific work done to prove theses hunches or ideas and Graham is doing well in searching out experts that have good knowledge or can lead to others who have.I am awaiting details on a lot of this via a FOI request so I will report back when that arrives.
I wish others elsewhere that could influence or fund this would take a lead rather than writing it all off as illogical or flawed. Time will tell of course but I sincerely hope it is not too late already.
 
Incidentaly. I still think the major ongoing problem we face is the one Lol and others have highlighted and is well documented, that of sex disruption in fish caused by water company discharge.


I am really looking for a cause of the last 5-10 year accelerated downturns.


Graham
 
Most fisheries around these 'ere parts use Skettrings pellets and the 25kg sacks I get from a farmer are skettrings too. When I first started buying bulk pellet 10+ year ago Skettrings did not deal with the public and you had to go through a trade seller.

They have specific pellets for the coarse fish market so I doubt these would be a problem. Skettrings Select-halibuts are no where near as oily as the Sonubaits Elips.

I go back to what I said in Post#4. A baseline needs to be established as to what constitutes a healthy barbel population and river, that way declines can actually be measured.
 
Well Done Rich. Keep up the excellent work and investigations.


Ash. I am in touch with a senior fish scientist at the company.

They don't seem to produce the products that are probably the main concern at the moment through the retail market. There brochure clearly states

Feed must match the species, size, biology,environment and health of the fish

Research ongoing. It does seem however in general that these companies do not exercise due diligence on overall product end usage.
 
Ok.

A reply to some of my queries from one of the Aquaculture Scientists. And my follow up email.

Hello Graham

Thank you for the interesting discussion we had this week. I've talked to the account manager for our bait customers, and have a better overview of supply now. As indicated in our conversation - our supply is infrequent , and we will take on board your comments at the next opportunity for discussion with our customers

The customers buying pelleted diets from us for angling purposes are offered a range of diet types with various fat levels.
·
· These diets are always supplied and labelled by us as salmonid feed.
·
· Our relationship with these bait market customers, is as a supplier of raw material, and we have no control on any additional processing (oils, flavouring, mixing), modification, product claims or usage thereafter.
·
· Uncontrolled and excessive release of any compound feed, or any organic material into the aquatic environment is not recommended, and in the aquaculture industry, we work closely with our farming customers to drive down feed use and improve efficiency.
·
· Our main competence is in salmonid feed and nutrition and we would not speculate on the effects of other species consuming an unbalanced diet. However to take an example of one effect, an imbalance in fat composition in salmon and trout can result in excessive fat deposition in the gut and other organs.
·
· If use of such products in an uncontrolled manner is a possible source of the issue which you describe, then we would advise the most effective course of action for you would be to approach the end users of such products and promote/educate sensible use of such feeds in our waterways. The sellers of the feed to anglers should also be involved, and encouraged to develop more appropriate products.
·
· Should those buyers of our feed for bait use require a change in composition of their feed pellets for supply going forward, then, we will of course respond to this accordingly.


We understand your concerns, and urge you to take up the suggestions on the best points of leverage for this issue.i.e. the anglers and the end-point suppliers of bait products

I hope this helps.

Regards
_____________________________________________________



Hello

Thank you very much for your response to some of my queries and for recognising our concern.

In a particular case, for example Elips Pellets that EWOS I understand sell to a number of bait companies, would you consider the analysis of the product suitable or desirable for Cyprinid species.

This given that your comment regarding fatty deposits and any other possible side effects from uncontrolled use.?

Given the declared duty of care regarding fish welfare, do you feel that EWOS responsibilities should extend to how your product is being applied by the end User? Surely due diligence should be part of the selling process?

I applaud your decision to take on board more detailed discussions with the bait buyers of your products regarding suitability (if I read that correctly) Would you indeed be contacting them to indicate what the product ranges available to them should ideally be based upon to try and negate any potential problems.?

Indeed your suggestion of tackling the problem from the Anglers/retail bait company perspective is one we are currently discussing. Education is the key prior to any potential legislation.

Lastly I would thank you for taking time out from your valuable workload to look at this matter. As I mentioned that at the moment their is no product on the market that is labelled as "Fish Friendly"

If you could respond to those few remaining queries It would be much appreciated.

Kind Regards


Graham Elliott
 
I wonder what John Baker would make of all this..he who reckons that fish know what's good for them?? Under his paradigms, and those of many, many others, fish (including barbel) would not eat excesses of anything (e.g. fat) that wasn't good for them.
And who has done extensive studies on the long term effects of consuming ANY other 'non-naturally occurring' foodstuffs e.g. milk protein???
Or even hempseed!! Casters??
Its all very interesting, and there may be some mileage in it, but I do hope that the result is not that otters end up feasting on red herrings.

ATBA
Terry
 
Terry. John Baker doesn't believe that.

In fact he has clearly identified problems with pellets in the past. And written about it.

As I have said, the potential effects on liver etc are well highlighted. But not the effects on fish in other ways.
Graham
 
Article by JB:

John Baker Baits

Some would argue of course that he has a vested interest in taking a certain position. You certainly don't need to spend very long searching the net to find an abundance of articles, research documents on this and related topics and many going back some years. It's a naturally important topic from the point of view of fish in human diet. A great many still water fisheries seem to have taken the decision years ago to ban certain pellets. That's not a commercial decision they would have taken lightly I imagine given the fish catching qualities of the high oil content pellets.

Rivers will be different of course but to what extent?

Have any autopsys been carried out on barbel does anyone know?
 
Quite a lot of detail on swollen liver outcomes in a controlled test environment Howard.

No research on other effects to my knowledge.

Don't forget food fish in farms are killed prior to long term noticable affects are known.

To be honest I have pretty much given up on one group being prepared to investigate further.

Even the decline in stocks doesn't even seem much of a concern.

Hopefully the long term approach adopted will work for any barbel around.
 
Howard Cooke said:
Article by JB:

John Baker Baits

A great many still water fisheries seem to have taken the decision years ago to ban certain pellets. That's not a commercial decision they would have taken lightly I imagine given the fish catching qualities of the high oil content pellets.
Click to expand...

Yes, they do ban many pellets..in fact many commercial fisheries only allow the use of pellets that are sold by the actual fishery to anglers. Yes, the health of their fish is their livelihood, and so this MAY be due to a concern (ethical, monetary, or otherwise) over fish welfare. But it will also be generating more income for said fisheries. Or am I being cynical?
N.B...any bait producer/bait ingredient producer that doesn't actually produce pellets has good reason the question the safety of feeding with pellets. Or am I being even more cynical?
 
I fully accept that Graham, and I think the research you're undertaking is excellent work. Many thanks from me.
I was replying to Howard's post re. Mr Baker's quote.
ATVB
Terry
 
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