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Matt Hayes reckons rivers are had it - your views

I think I made a similar point a few weeks ago, there is nowhere on these islands from the highest peaks to the deepest woods which have not been affected by the hand of man. With the current drains (pun intended) on our river and their environment by a burgeoning human population any attempt to turn back the clocks is never going to work.
The otter project, if I can call it that, may appear to have been successful at first glance but when the present high levels of food have been depleted the otters will have to start ranging further and further to survive. This is going to bring them into dispute with other otters from which there will only be one winner and the population will eventually stabilise at a sustainable level.
Looking at it like that Matt may well be right.

Having said that, one thing which nobody has discussed is the effect the otters return has had on the mink population There is allot of anecdotal evidence to suggest that the mink took over from the otters as the apex riverine predator when the mink farms of the 70s were being infiltrated by ill informed though well intentioned animal lovers. I has been suggested that the otters are recolonising areas at the expense of the mink with the knock on effect of a rise in water vole and burrowing bird numbers, mink fit down the holes and rob the nests, otters don't. If this is a fact then surely this is a good thing? From my own personal experience I know of one stretch of water where I never see a mink now but they used to be a common sight, I have had repeated sightings of otters on there though, normally at dusk on the far bank but unmistakable through the bins.
 
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Neil Smart said:
Like I said it is self serving nonsense, and your comments are just as absurd, I cannot believe how short sighted some are, yea lets just turn our rivers into managed venues that have as much character as a carp puddle, it's not the Otter that is the problem it is thinking like this.
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neil

head-in-sand.jpg
 
I would be interested to know where would the money come from to start a cull ? and where would you start ?
Do you totally wipe them out ? Or do you play god and decide who dies and who lives ? and once you have culled a few Otters in one area ?
Whats to stop Otters from another area eventally moving to the area where Otters have already been culled ? Only for the problem to start all over again .
 
Stuart Prescott said:
neil

head-in-sand.jpg
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Head in the sand ? No not me, I do not think that our rivers (what's left of them) should be further affected by such selfish reasons, I love my Barbel fishing but I am not blind to other species and their rights to play a part in rebuilding a better environment.

Do you agree?
 
Adrian Williams said:
I think I made a similar point a few weeks ago, there is nowhere on these islands from the highest peaks to the deepest woods which have not been affected by the hand of man. With the current drains (pun intended) on our river and their environment by a burgeoning human population any attempt to turn back the clocks is never going to work.
The otter project, if I can call it that, may appear to have been successful at first glance but when the present high levels of food have been depleted the otters will have to start ranging further and further to survive. This is going to bring them into dispute with other otters from which there will only be one winner and the population will eventually stabilise at a sustainable level.
Looking at it like that Matt may well be right.

Having said that, one thing which nobody has discussed is the effect the otters return has had on the mink population There is allot of anecdotal evidence to suggest that the mink took over from the otters as the apex riverine predator when the mink farms of the 70s were being infiltrated by ill informed though well intentioned animal lovers. I has been suggested that the otters are recolonising areas at the expense of the mink with the knock on effect of a rise in water vole and burrowing bird numbers, mink fit down the holes and rob the nests, otters don't. If this is a fact then surely this is a good thing? From my own personal experience I know of one stretch of water where I never see a mink now but they used to be a common sight, I have had repeated sightings of otters on there though, normally at dusk on the far bank but unmistakable through the bins.
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Good post, I have thought about the Mink vs Otter, and yes there is a positive perhaps?
And how true to say man has so influenced the shape of out wildlife habitat it is about time we tried at least to do something as a positive. Bleating about Otter predation will do us no favours in the eyes of the public, especially when we have the burden of Fish 'O' Mania to carry around, that is what a large part of the public view us as, a bunch of nutters fishing in a dart board shaped lake skull dragging hapless barbel and carp to be weighed in for a huge cash prize.
Sorry, but some of the comments on here regarding Otter is as damaging as that picture portrays.
Wise up, you will never get a Otter cull, save your energy to work with these groups, and try to Educate, rather than look like a bunch of selfish anglers who only care about double figure Barbel.
 
Joe Fletcher said:
I would be interested to know where would the money come from to start a cull ? and where would you start ?
Do you totally wipe them out ? Or do you play god and decide who dies and who lives ? and once you have culled a few Otters in one area ?
Whats to stop Otters from another area eventally moving to the area where Otters have already been culled ? Only for the problem to start all over again .
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Hi mate, long time... exactly what do you do? But I could see that culling would have an affect, but just where that would sit with public opinion I don't know

Not for me though.
 
Neil Smart said:
Good post, I have thought about the Mink vs Otter, and yes there is a positive perhaps?
And how true to say man has so influenced the shape of out wildlife habitat it is about time we tried at least to do something as a positive. Bleating about Otter predation will do us no favours in the eyes of the public, especially when we have the burden of Fish 'O' Mania to carry around, that is what a large part of the public view us as, a bunch of nutters fishing in a dart board shaped lake skull dragging hapless barbel and carp to be weighed in for a huge cash prize.
Sorry, but some of the comments on here regarding Otter is as damaging as that picture portrays.
Wise up, you will never get a Otter cull, save your energy to work with these groups, and try to Educate, rather than look like a bunch of selfish anglers who only care about double figure Barbel.
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completley missing the point :rolleyes:

when tarka has munched its way through the remaining large barbel , what will it turn is attention too ?

we are constantly told the eel is in decline ad that this is the prefered meal for tarka ,so what , when the large easy targets have gone , will it eat ???

chub ? roach , dace ? thats right , anything thats left

regardless of your point of view as to the re introduction of the otter , they are here , but we as humans , the dominant species on this planet , have a duty of care , to the otter and to everything below it in the food chain

rivers will need to be 'managed' in my view for them to be succesful

take a look at stretches that are free for a clue as to what happens when they are left to there own devices . they are either emptied by the avian threat , overgrown or resemble the local tip , is that what you want ?

angling is under a massive threat right now , in my book , it was totaly irresponsible to re introduce the otter with so many other threats to the water ways
 
I think Matt Hayes and Martin Bowler are right when they say specimen angling on rivers is in decline.
As for any sort of balance being reached, well i think thats never going to happen. There are 100's of orphaned Otter cubs being reared back to full health as we speak to be eventualy released again, it takes about a year to get them back to full health. I strongly believe that until these various groups are told they must let nature take its course, then no balance is ever going to be reached.
But i do agree with Hugh Miles that there probably wouldent be a problem with Otters if there were not as many fish eating birds on our waterways such as the Cormarant, which i think is the biggest threat to not only fish stocks but also the Otter.
What astounds me is the fact that the EA have admitted that some rivers Barbel stocks have taken a right battering and they cant understand why this is happening, so rather than stop various groups re-relesasing more Otters until they have some answers, they simply keep letting it happen. This does not make sense to me..
Also as we all know there preferd diet is EELS, which we also know are on the verge of collapse, so knowing all these facts you would think they would re- think there whole approach..Well no thats not going to happen because the Otter is a PR tool for the EA to fool joe public that everything is fine..
Best thing we can do, is enjoy whats left before it dissapears for a very long time...
 
Craig Wood said:
There are 100's of orphaned Otter cubs being reared back to full health as we speak to be eventualy released again, it takes about a year to get them back to full health. I strongly believe that until these various groups are told they must let nature take its course, then no balance is ever going to be reached..
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where is this happening craig ?
 
Hi Stuart,
This is happening ALL over the country. It was on the news down here in Bournemouth about Otter cubs having to be rescued because of the floods. It also said it would take about a year to get them back to full health before they re-release them. So as ive just said if Anglers think some sort of balance is going to be reached, well you had better think again.!!
 
How many eels did you use to catch on the severn compared to today?? CCan't help but think if people didn't catch elvers in their thousands we wouldn't have this decline. The ignorance of man has destroyed so much.
 
Is it true that a otter that goes on anothers patch,will be seen off or even killed by the dominant one,if so i think nature will even things out.Cormorants are the biggest threat our waters have,take these out of the equasion and our waterways will improve vastly.
 
historically true dog otters would have a range of maybe 30km or more of river and didnt tolerate other dog otters, sadly the problem seems to be that the density of otters has increased dramatically, possibly a trait handed down from the captive otters that were introduced some years ago after being kept in pens near each other. A river keeper i was talking to had a letter from the EA which said "specimen fishing is finished" i believe he was talking about the kennet, my local :eek: but it is very widespread.
In 30years on the kennet i had seen 2 otters, until the last 12 months when i have seen otters on 20 or more occaisons, even in broad daylight...not what naturalists would recognise as normal behaviour. I believe Ray Walton said on another thread that they hunt in packs down his neck of the woods...its all going horribly wrong as it always does we we "manage" the eco system :(
 
There does'nt seem to be any good feedback about all this predation,i feel sorry for you with whats happening on the kennet and other small rivers,its only a matter of time i think that it severely effects bigger rivers more than it already has.This managed introduction i feel and hope will blow up in their faces but together with cormorants god knows the extent of the damage by then.
 
Joe Fletcher said:
I would be interested to know where would the money come from to start a cull ? and where would you start ?
Do you totally wipe them out ? Or do you play god and decide who dies and who lives ? and once you have culled a few Otters in one area ?
Whats to stop Otters from another area eventally moving to the area where Otters have already been culled ? Only for the problem to start all over again .
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There would be very little money required Joe. Foxes in sheep farming areas are culled at the expense of a box of BB cartridges or a clip of .22 rifle bullets.
I would imagine, in the highly unlikely event of a cull being approved, that controlling clubs would ask for licensed gun holders to control their "patch".
 
Alex Gowney said:
There would be very little money required Joe. Foxes in sheep farming areas are culled at the expense of a box of BB cartridges or a clip of .22 rifle bullets.
I would imagine, in the highly unlikely event of a cull being approved, that controlling clubs would ask for licensed gun holders to control their "patch".
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As you say Alex its highly unlikely to happen . Personally I dont think it will happen . Public opinion would be totally against it .
Thats the difference between a Fox and a Otter . One is classed as vermin and the other is not and that is why it will never happen .
 
How did the deer cull slip through the public's consciousness unnoticed? I'm surprised there hasn't been more public outcry at the slaughter of large numbers of doe eyed ruminants.

Could there be hope after all when the massed ranks of koi carp breeders join anglers in a joint outcry against the otter?
 
Graham Hunt said:
How did the deer cull slip through the public's consciousness unnoticed? I'm surprised there hasn't been more public outcry at the slaughter of large numbers of doe eyed ruminants.
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The deer cull slipped through because every celebrity chef on the tv bangs on about venison so it is accepted as a food source.
 
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