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Matt Hayes reckons rivers are had it - your views

Rivers are a natural environment and as such otters have a place there.

Although a very controversial subject I do agree with you Ash, they do belong on the rivers. However, the natural balance of them and fish stocks has not yet been realised. The problem we face is the destruction of larger fish (easy meals for them) until said balance is restored. That said that may take a very long time and the worrying thing is the stocks will take even longer to recover.
The otter/cormorant issue is a double wammy, the cormorants will deplete the small fish and the otters will take the bigger fish thus destroying healthy fish stocks.
Coupled with all the other things going on like uneducated EE's, pollution etc I personally think the outcome is inevitable, how long that will take who knows but if no control is taken then we cannot stop it.

Cormorants are protected by law, that could I suppose be changed.

The otter issue we have no chance in doing anything about, they are here to stay.For whatever reasons we as anglers have very little say in what goes on, fat cats making money run the show, like it or lump it, they, not the Angling Trust or whatever comes about will decide anglings way forward.

There is a saying ''silk purse from a pig's ear'',,,,,,,,, lets get sewing guys :D
 
I reckon the only hope is if the cuddly furry critters, eat all the black feathered critters and then die quietly of a surfeit of said black plague.
 
Eddie -I've said it before and i'll say it again - not enough of those making the noise are actually prepared to go out and act upon the very thing they are campaigning for. Everyone who has signed that petition should be prepared to buy a gun, take it to their fishery and shoot the birds.


Are you serious?
 
neil, you make sound easy, I can just imagine me shooting birds on a water, until pc plod come up to me and arrest me, for shooting birds, but i know what you mean, kk
 
neil, you make sound easy, I can just imagine me shooting birds on a water, until pc plod come up to me and arrest me, for shooting birds, but i know what you mean, kk

Crazy idea Eddie, IF there were to be a cull of these birds I assume it would be at the hands of a licensed gun.
 
Crazy idea Eddie, IF there were to be a cull of these birds I assume it would be at the hands of a licensed gun.

It would have to be somebody who holds a current firearms or shotgun certificate, depending on the terrain and public population around the area you would shoot. And you would also need a licence to cull.
 
And also an insured shooter with public liability. Such as a basc member.
 
I'm guessing that Andrew is speaking metaphorically !!!!! If you wouldn't be prepared to do it yourself, then don't sign the petitions !!! Applies regarding Otters, Cormorants or whatever !!!
 
well yes , it would have to be done throught proper channels, i was just speaking in general as some people would be thinking carrying high powered air rifles, in there holdals, kk ,ready to pop a few off at a time,
so the goverment is only interested in taking our rod licence fee s and do nothing about the problems at hand, they must think we are all dum,
 
Rivers are a natural environment and as such otters have a place there.

That is a false premise Ash. Bears, wolves, beavers and a whole host of other species were 'natural', they were indigenous species to this country...so do they deserve a place in our parks and countryside? Of course they don't, that would be an absolutely absurd idea. Some of them, those predators that had potential to be harmful to humans, were quite sensibly and rapidly exterminated. However, as is our way, other animals that were not dangerous, but were 'a bit of a nuisance', such as beavers etc....were dealt with just as radically. We are humans Ash....we tailor our wildlife, our environment....and our neighbours....to suit ourselves. We are the REAL apex predator, we always have been...and probably always will be. We shape EVERYTHING to make ourselves safer, more comfortable...and to make conditions suitable for amusing ourselves in the leisure time we have ensured is available . Sometimes it seems we even do things...just because we can.

Therefore, to say that otters 'have a place there' purely because our rivers are 'a natural environment' is so far from the truth it is out of sight. Our rivers themselves do not survive because they are 'natural environments'....they survive, in the same way everything else in our world does...because at this moment in time, we see fit to allow them to. That is because at this moment in time....they amuse us....and because they have not yet become enough of a nuisance to warrant becoming culverted to put an end to flooding...and cease to exist in their present form. However, that obviously may change at any time...they may at some other moment in time become considered to be a real nuisance...and then they will go.

Otters are here again purely because we banned the chemical that caused them to disappear, banned them for a number of reasons I believe. It is highly likely that these chemicals were NOT banned specifically to save otters, or with that aim alone....it is far more likely that otters got lucky in that sense....and doubly lucky when they then got other 'helping hands' along the way :rolleyes:

Natural? what IS natural? Are fields of crops natural? Is any of our countryside in it's present form natural? I think not! NONE of it is 'natural'. It is what we, at this moment, wish it to be...and what we wish changes constantly. In what way then are otters different? In what way do they deserve to 'be'...when so many thousands of other 'natural' animals have 'ceased to be'...at our whim? How do they alone seem to have some obscure 'divine right'?

I actually wouldn't like to see the end of otters on our rivers, oddly enough I am in favour of keeping as many things as possible that remain to us of what we now deem to be 'natural'...in our managed world. I just question this bizarre notion that otters have some holy 'right' to exist...when everything they kill apparently does not enjoy that same right. Time and again I hear 'They have a right to be here, if they wipe out our favourite fish, so be it...it is only natural'. BULL****!....otters have come back, in huge and ever growing numbers, because we brought about the circumstance to allow it...and sadly forgot (or didn't care) that they would be in an environment with no natural predators to control their numbers. We engineered their comeback to a habitat that is in no way capable of sustaining them if those numbers are left unchecked. The utterly unnatural state of many of our rivers means that many of them are hovering on the edge, because of pollution and over abstraction and many other issues...and that means they CANNOT sustain the extra burden of a large predator at this time....especially when they arrive in unnatural numbers.

The otters are having a whale of a time at present (excuse the pun), decimating things such as carp and so on in commercials, pet fish in peoples ponds, irreplaceable specimen fish in our rivers, rare endangered creatures like water voles, or tasty ducklings, goslings, cygnets....in a word, ANYTHING they can lay their predatory claws and teeth on. I KNOW it's not their fault, I KNOW they are only doing what comes natural to them...but they shouldn't be allowed to do 'what comes natural to them', in unnatural numbers quite unsuitable for the environment they now find themselves in.

What I am saying is that their numbers should be controlled to a manageable figure, to numbers that are sustainable on our rivers in their current state. In my opinion they should NOT be allowed to wipe out all our sizable fish because of some bizarre notion that that would be 'natural'....it ISN'T natural. In nature, there would be large predators keeping otter numbers in check...remember them? Yes....the ones we 'managed' earlier. When and if otters do manage to virtually wipe out every small river, lake, commercial, pond, and all the rest (and their success rate so far suggests they probably will)....what then? Will we have to line the banks of the Wye, Trent and Severn....until the otters descend and overwhelm even those large, healthy rivers, by shear weight of numbers?

Please don't tell me that 'nature will sort it out', that their numbers will 'naturally decline' when the required food runs out. Of course that will happen...but what is 'natural' about allowing that to happen? The savage battles to the death of panicking otters competing for a declining food stock, and the slow starvation that will ensue in time will be natural, in a way. But....it's about time some folk woke up to the fact that when otter numbers reach 'unnatural' levels due to the lack of 'natural' larger, limiting predators...then what happens next WILL be natural....but there is no reason at all why we should allow that situation to arise. The solution is obvious, and entirely down to us. And that WOULD save our fisheries in the process...naturally!

Finally...my last point....why would anyone see it as fair or 'natural' that MY fishing should end...just because they, or some other ill informed person, has decided that, sad as that may seem...in their opinion....it's only 'natural' :mad: IT'S NOT! 'Natural' is when predators are kept in check by bigger predators. WE have brought about the situation where WE are the ONLY 'bigger' predator left in Britain...so surely, having contrived that circumstance, that should mean that WE have a duty to limit their numbers to a sustainable level. THAT would be natural.

OK...I admit it....I was bored again because I couldn't sleep....so I retaliated by boring you lot. But....some of it makes sense....doesn't it?

Cheers, Dave.
 
Dave, i'm suffering with jet lag and may not usually have had time to read your detailed post. I'm glad i did, excellent stuff. I sense a shift in the balance of power within the angling community; such hasbbeen the devastation wreaked nationally in the last 12 months by those cuddly little balls of fluff that few can ignore the serious threat to all manner of venues.

The frustration is that it seems we are powerless to do anything about it. A cull is required, but i can't imagine josephine public being very accepting. However, deer numbers are heavily culled so if bambi is getting shot there is some hope!!

Let's at least hope for some positive news re: the laws on controlling the black plague.
 
Dave,

Posts like this make it worth my while to log in to this site.............beautifully put.
 
That is a false premise Ash. Bears, wolves, beavers and a whole host of other species were 'natural', they were indigenous species to this country...so do they deserve a place in our parks and countryside? Of course they don't, that would be an absolutely absurd idea. Some of them, those predators that had potential to be harmful to humans, were quite sensibly and rapidly exterminated. However, as is our way, other animals that were not dangerous, but were 'a bit of a nuisance', such as beavers etc....were dealt with just as radically. We are humans Ash....we tailor our wildlife, our environment....and our neighbours....to suit ourselves. We are the REAL apex predator, we always have been...and probably always will be. We shape EVERYTHING to make ourselves safer, more comfortable...and to make conditions suitable for amusing ourselves in the leisure time we have ensured is available . Sometimes it seems we even do things...just because we can.

Therefore, to say that otters 'have a place there' purely because our rivers are 'a natural environment' is so far from the truth it is out of sight. Our rivers themselves do not survive because they are 'natural environments'....they survive, in the same way everything else in our world does...because at this moment in time, we see fit to allow them to. That is because at this moment in time....they amuse us....and because they have not yet become enough of a nuisance to warrant becoming culverted to put an end to flooding...and cease to exist in their present form. However, that obviously may change at any time...they may at some other moment in time become considered to be a real nuisance...and then they will go.

Otters are here again purely because we banned the chemical that caused them to disappear, banned them for a number of reasons I believe. It is highly likely that these chemicals were NOT banned specifically to save otters, or with that aim alone....it is far more likely that otters got lucky in that sense....and doubly lucky when they then got other 'helping hands' along the way :rolleyes:

Natural? what IS natural? Are fields of crops natural? Is any of our countryside in it's present form natural? I think not! NONE of it is 'natural'. It is what we, at this moment, wish it to be...and what we wish changes constantly. In what way then are otters different? In what way do they deserve to 'be'...when so many thousands of other 'natural' animals have 'ceased to be'...at our whim? How do they alone seem to have some obscure 'divine right'?

I actually wouldn't like to see the end of otters on our rivers, oddly enough I am in favour of keeping as many things as possible that remain to us of what we now deem to be 'natural'...in our managed world. I just question this bizarre notion that otters have some holy 'right' to exist...when everything they kill apparently does not enjoy that same right. Time and again I hear 'They have a right to be here, if they wipe out our favourite fish, so be it...it is only natural'. BULL****!....otters have come back, in huge and ever growing numbers, because we brought about the circumstance to allow it...and sadly forgot (or didn't care) that they would be in an environment with no natural predators to control their numbers. We engineered their comeback to a habitat that is in no way capable of sustaining them if those numbers are left unchecked. The utterly unnatural state of many of our rivers means that many of them are hovering on the edge, because of pollution and over abstraction and many other issues...and that means they CANNOT sustain the extra burden of a large predator at this time....especially when they arrive in unnatural numbers.

The otters are having a whale of a time at present (excuse the pun), decimating things such as carp and so on in commercials, pet fish in peoples ponds, irreplaceable specimen fish in our rivers, rare endangered creatures like water voles, or tasty ducklings, goslings, cygnets....in a word, ANYTHING they can lay their predatory claws and teeth on. I KNOW it's not their fault, I KNOW they are only doing what comes natural to them...but they shouldn't be allowed to do 'what comes natural to them', in unnatural numbers quite unsuitable for the environment they now find themselves in.

What I am saying is that their numbers should be controlled to a manageable figure, to numbers that are sustainable on our rivers in their current state. In my opinion they should NOT be allowed to wipe out all our sizable fish because of some bizarre notion that that would be 'natural'....it ISN'T natural. In nature, there would be large predators keeping otter numbers in check...remember them? Yes....the ones we 'managed' earlier. When and if otters do manage to virtually wipe out every small river, lake, commercial, pond, and all the rest (and their success rate so far suggests they probably will)....what then? Will we have to line the banks of the Wye, Trent and Severn....until the otters descend and overwhelm even those large, healthy rivers, by shear weight of numbers?

Please don't tell me that 'nature will sort it out', that their numbers will 'naturally decline' when the required food runs out. Of course that will happen...but what is 'natural' about allowing that to happen? The savage battles to the death of panicking otters competing for a declining food stock, and the slow starvation that will ensue in time will be natural, in a way. But....it's about time some folk woke up to the fact that when otter numbers reach 'unnatural' levels due to the lack of 'natural' larger, limiting predators...then what happens next WILL be natural....but there is no reason at all why we should allow that situation to arise. The solution is obvious, and entirely down to us. And that WOULD save our fisheries in the process...naturally!

Finally...my last point....why would anyone see it as fair or 'natural' that MY fishing should end...just because they, or some other ill informed person, has decided that, sad as that may seem...in their opinion....it's only 'natural' :mad: IT'S NOT! 'Natural' is when predators are kept in check by bigger predators. WE have brought about the situation where WE are the ONLY 'bigger' predator left in Britain...so surely, having contrived that circumstance, that should mean that WE have a duty to limit their numbers to a sustainable level. THAT would be natural.

OK...I admit it....I was bored again because I couldn't sleep....so I retaliated by boring you lot. But....some of it makes sense....doesn't it?

Cheers, Dave.

Brilliantly put Dave. I hear that dinosaurs are being brought back as well. In fact they're being employed in the environment agency top offices as we read this!!!
 
Dave, Im afraid me and you are at completely different ends of the spectrum on this one.

Im not going to be as disrespectful as to call your position absurd but once we get to the stage where we are arguing over the semantics of what constitiutes a natural environment when discussing rivers, then Im sorry but I don’t have the time nor the inclinination.
 
dave

what a fantastic post , where is my clapping smiley face ??:D


ive been following your posts with great pleasure recently over various threads , but this last one ..................FANTASTIC !!!


ive had this argument elsewhere , and people fail to realise we have a responsibility

we are the apex predator , we control almost everything else in this world , we can even control the route of the river if needed , why not the otter !
 
Dave, Im afraid me and you are at completely different ends of the spectrum on this one.

Im not going to be as disrespectful as to call your position absurd but once we get to the stage where we are arguing over the semantics of what constitiutes a natural environment when discussing rivers, then Im sorry but I don’t have the time nor the inclinination.

Thus is the crux of the matter for me too, as I have said we may as well consider the rivers no more than a commercial venue, with the larger Barbel the prize and all else of no consequence.

Perhaps this is the influence that Carp fishing has brought to our rivers? But if it is it is a sorry state of affairs, especially when so many on here apparently applaud the likes of Hargreaves and co in being the voice of the countryman.

To consider that man should be solely judge and jury as to what lives and dies is a pathetic self serving argument, what satisfaction can be gained in fishing 'farmed' rivers for carp err barbel.

All very well spouting off what they want to hear on here, perhaps Dave should try the 'hard sell' and perhaps with an opinion that doesn't just cater for a few but for the many. I would love to see a well balanced River eco system and that's what many are striving for, to gauge any successes that might come about cannot be judged merely by how many barbel there are. or not! It's all about balance from the smallest caddis to the biggest barbel.
 
dave

what a fantastic post , where is my clapping smiley face ??:D


ive been following your posts with great pleasure recently over various threads , but this last one ..................FANTASTIC !!!


ive had this argument elsewhere , and people fail to realise we have a responsibility

we are the apex predator , we control almost everything else in this world , we can even control the route of the river if needed , why not the otter !


Like I said it is self serving nonsense, and your comments are just as absurd, I cannot believe how short sighted some are, yea lets just turn our rivers into managed venues that have as much character as a carp puddle, it's not the Otter that is the problem it is thinking like this.
 
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