Matt Hayes reckons rivers are had it - your views

[Alex Gowney]

Alex the floods of 2007 were exceptional and I wonder with all the floods we have had since .
How much of an impact has that had fry ? and can they survive in that kind of environment ?
Nearly six years on from 2007 are the fry now growing in to the specimens of tomorrow or did they perish ?

Very possibly Joe. I think what sets the 2007 floods apart from the run of the mill ones was the time of year. I walked across a deeply flooded field at Heyford in June and, unlike a muddy winter flood, this was gin clear. Plants and fauna were waving about in a stunning green, crystal clear aquarium about 2 acres in size! I even saw a fish go past, not sure what it was but it looked like a chub. It was an incredible site and given it was summer it isn't hard to imagine the damage done to fry that year.

 

[Neil Smart]

There are no hard facts to back up my opinion Neil, but I am offering that opinion based on my, and many others, first hand experience of these rivers. My findings were that the decline coincided with the appearance of otters. Other anglers may have come to different conclusions. Mink also do not carry off double figure barbel unless of course they do it as a group exercise! Not only that, throughout these rivers best years mink were present. Otters weren't.

You are right Neil, there does need to be more serious and in depth study undertaken, my opinion does not make me right and I fully realise this. But neither does it make me automatically wrong either. I am not the only Cherwell angler who holds this view, many very well known anglers feel the same.

I am not sure whether the Windrush decline has been more more startling than the Cherwell, though thinking of it, I think you may well be right. It seemed more sudden, somehow. And yes, many rivers have not been the same since the 2007 floods with no real good explanation for that either. I suppose everyone has an opinion, and without solid proof, as you say, it's all just conjecture.

Hi Alex
Yes it seems these two rivers the Cherwell and Windrush have suffered very badly, the Cherwell I used to fish many years ago nr Kings Sutton and it was stuffed with all coarse fish species, and also the beautiful Windrush which I have been in love with since I first walked her banks in the early 90's. Both seem barren of fish now. But as you know the Windrush has suffered badly from low levels and in some places dried up completley, this has been a factor with chalk streams of late, especially the Churn in Cirencester where fish have had to be rescued and relocated.
As you say it is all conjecture as to the real demise of these Rivers, and until there is a independent study as to why, I guess we will continue to speculate. But I guess the reasons will be quite unpalatable, and of course the Water Companies would never fund such a study.

 

[Neil Smart]

Very possibly Joe. I think what sets the 2007 floods apart from the run of the mill ones was the time of year. I walked across a deeply flooded field at Heyford in June and, unlike a muddy winter flood, this was gin clear. Plants and fauna were waving about in a stunning green, crystal clear aquarium about 2 acres in size! I even saw a fish go past, not sure what it was but it looked like a chub. It was an incredible site and given it was summer it isn't hard to imagine the damage done to fry that year.

Yes that was the same in Tewkesbury the recreation ground was full of fish, and the road to Apperley (Severn) was a river of small fry.

 

[Nick Hay]

Nick, I sympathise to a degree, but if you start off a thread about otters...a subject you are fully aware is one of the most talked about and contentious issue currently around....and ask for opinions on it....then what exactly did you expect to happen????

Cheers, Dave.

Dave,

Opinions about specialist fishing and the reasons behind it's decline is what I expected Dave, not personal attacks on other contributors.



Ash,

You did not come across to me a stroppy, you defended someone and beat me to it.


ATB,

Nick

 

[Alex Gowney]

And yet all the mayhem the Otter has been blamed for some chose to ignore the fact, this is one fact I think we can use, is that the Mink has declined in numbers with the return of the Otter, and as we all know the Mink is a very capable hunter of fish.

Again on a positive note the Water Vole has recovered a little due to it being not on the Otter menu, both are indigenous of course so it's a start.

I wish someone could explain merely by replacing one apex predator with another, Otter vs Mink that a swap of a very similar predator type could have a profound impact on fish stocks? OK the Otter is a larger beast but that doesn't seem to be a valid reason in itself.

I can't help but think the problem of declining fish stocks should not be put solely at the feet of the Otter, I think we need to look a little deeper.

I think there a few reasons why the otter is a far greater depleter of fish stocks than the mink, Neil. Being bigger means it needs to eat more. The otter also rarely eats anything but a very small amount of it's kill and so has to kill more often. The mink, by nature, is far more catholic in it's tastes. Mammals form a natural part of it's diet while the otter, first and foremost, is a fish eater. The otter can take bigger fish (females) and quickly wipe out the breeding stock. And last but not least, the mink does not enjoy the level of protection afforded to otters.


I remember once seeing a mink on the Cherwell with a crayfish, which instantly endeared it to me. Now if otters could form an addiction to crays...

 

[Mark Gaskell]

any hope?

so weve got the kingfishers and herons taking the smaller fish,then the gooseanders,taking slightly larger fish then the mink and commorants taking even bigger fish ,then the otter taking larger still, and not least man,we are looking at a wipe out unless things change!

 

[Neil Smart]

I think there a few reasons why the otter is a far greater depleter of fish stocks than the mink, Neil. Being bigger means it needs to eat more. The otter also rarely eats anything but a very small amount of it's kill and so has to kill more often. The mink, by nature, is far more catholic in it's tastes. Mammals form a natural part of it's diet while the otter, first and foremost, is a fish eater. The otter can take bigger fish (females) and quickly wipe out the breeding stock. And last but not least, the mink does not enjoy the level of protection afforded to otters.


I remember once seeing a mink on the Cherwell with a crayfish, which instantly endeared it to me. Now if otters could form an addiction to crays...

Yep I did wonder about the amount of scoff the Otter needed. But evidence regarding Otter kills and Mink kills is to say the least a bit confusing when I have tried to research the subject. In fact some say the mink is more picky than the Otter but on reflection I believe that you are right in that the Otter will just take a few nurtitional organs and leave the rest.
The Mink is related to the Polecat and is a very efficient scavenger, so it would be feasible that they would devour the whole lot.

Sure the Otter has a wide choice on it's menu including crayfish , mussel etc and I believe other mammals too,. But I fish areas where there are Otter, nothing exclusive about that, and yet despite actually seeing the occasional Otter, and certainly seeing the footprints, I have yet to see the bankside littered with fish corpses, I know there has been 'evidence' as such such as Adams Mill, but as a layman I would expect to see this in some numbers if we are really blaming the Otter for declining fish stocks, and considering it's rather picky eating nature.

So there is a great deal of circumstantial evidence but nothing that would stand up in Court, but I will keep an open mind about the subject, but I do believe we should leave no stone unturned in seeking the truth about declining fish stocks.

However I suspect the truth is out there and would be a very unpalatable dish indeed, the Government have dragged it's feet over protecting our Coastal Fisheries, ignoring several reccomendations, and that is a commercial need where jobs are at stake, so any study into decline in freshwater fish stocks for leisure pursuits I imagine will be way down the list of priorties.

Oh! and thanks

 

[Howard Cooke]

Yep I did wonder about the amount of scoff the Otter needed. But evidence regarding Otter kills and Mink kills is to say the least a bit confusing when I have tried to research the subject. In fact some say the mink is more picky than the Otter but on reflection I believe that you are right in that the Otter will just take a few nurtitional organs and leave the rest.
The Mink is related to the Polecat and is a very efficient scavenger, so it would be feasible that they would devour the whole lot.

Sure the Otter has a wide choice on it's menu including crayfish , mussel etc and I believe other mammals too,. But I fish areas where there are Otter, nothing exclusive about that, and yet despite actually seeing the occasional Otter, and certainly seeing the footprints, I have yet to see the bankside littered with fish corpses, I know there has been 'evidence' as such such as Adams Mill, but as a layman I would expect to see this in some numbers if we are really blaming the Otter for declining fish stocks, and considering it's rather picky eating nature.

So there is a great deal of circumstantial evidence but nothing that would stand up in Court, but I will keep an open mind about the subject, but I do believe we should leave no stone unturned in seeking the truth about declining fish stocks.

However I suspect the truth is out there and would be a very unpalatable dish indeed, the Government have dragged it's feet over protecting our Coastal Fisheries, ignoring several reccomendations, and that is a commercial need where jobs are at stake, so any study into decline in freshwater fish stocks for leisure pursuits I imagine will be way down the list of priorties.

Oh! and thanks

It's such a difficult one this and in the absence of a full, transparent and robust study, opinions originate from personal experience and observation- none of which can be invalidated by anyone, just compared to others.

My experience on the Kennet is the same as yours Neil on the rivers you fish. Admittedly I have only been fishing it for the past couple of seasons after a long break, but I have only seen one otter and only one barbel carcass. Given how badly the Kennet has apparently suffered, I would have expected to see more. Speaking to far more experienced anglers than me on the bank, folk who have fished the Kennet over the last 20 years, speak of a river that has changed dramatically. Plentiful catches of small and mid sized fish replaced by far fewer catches but larger specimens. This would suggest more of a problem with junior classes just not coming through/being replaced: is that down to birds/floods/crayfish/pollution? No one seems to know and perhaps its a combination of all these. The presence of otters isn't going to help, particularly if they are taking the big girls.

 

[Alex Gowney]

It is so depressing to think we probably have to rely on the government to even consider an in depth study. As Neil says, they have buried their heads in the sand regarding sea fish stocks, which are an industry, so what hope is there for coarse fish stocks which only provide leisure for anglers but a living for many in the bait, tackle and fishery industries. It's not really feasible to call for an anglers "strike", pardon the pun, but I wonder how badly the EA, and by definition the government, would suffer if there was an organised protest in the way of everyone refusing to buy a license until those in power actually take anglings concerns seriously? I doubt the AT would want to go down this route but we appear, at least as far as rivers are concerned, to be drifting towards the point of no return.

 

[Richard Hamlyn]

Well we seem to have had a full and frank discussion on this one regarding the perceived decline in our river fisheries. The question I would like to ask first is a decline from what? It seems to me that the “gold standard†that everyone wants is as different and as varied as the opinions on the causes of the decline. The two anglers below are at opposite ends of the spectrum and there are surely several variables in between

The Pleasure Angler wants a good head of mixed species so that he can virtually guarantee getting a few bites when he goes fishing with his mewling children. If there is an apex predator (otter) that keeps eating the biggest fish in the river, but at the same time keeps other predators away that target the smaller fish he wants to catch, then where is the problem from his perspective? He does however want the cormorants targeted because he sees them eating the very fish he wants to catch. He also likes the trees removed as his casting is somewhat erratic and he loses precious tackle. He is relatively happy to share the river with dog walkers and Joe Public out for a bit of fresh air.

The Specimen Barbel Hunter wants the river to have large examples of his chosen quarry. He or she does not want horded of PA’s trying to catch tiddlers. In order for the river to produce such fish then it needs to have plenty of food but poor recruitment of small fish. The cormorant is his friend, the more small fish that are eaten the better and Ron and Reggie are an additional bonus as they not only eat the spawn but grow into good food for the Barbel. Inevitably recruitment is low but a small number of his beloved Barbel make it through to maintain the population of specimen fish. Otters are considered to be only slightly better than EE’s and he thinks the world would be a better place if one had ever existed and the other had stayed home rather than trying to better themselves.

Given the above there is hardly likely to ever be a “one size fits all policy†that would work. There is also NO CHANCE of the AT / EA / Government or any other organised (?) body putting one into action even if there was such a thing. So as you can see river fishing is doomed and we might as well accept it.

Hang on though….is there possibly another way. Why not let the individual controlling bodies do the job. Those stretches of water controlled by a syndicate (and there are going to be many more of these in the future) want the big Barbel or whatever. They can quietly go about their business of tree planting, bankside management and the setting of traps to catch Mr O safe in the knowledge that with restricted public access they are unlikely to cause concern. Kingfishers and Goosanders will abound eating the small fish and the idyll will be completed with grumpy individuals dressed in realtree who never admit to catching ‘owt.

A few miles downstream there will be a club / day ticket water with nice level platforms for people to put their folding garden chairs on and if they are really lucky they might even spot an Otter that has taken up residence if the noise of their radio’s has not frightened it.

Everybody has what they want, the people controlling everything are the people who have always done all the work, and the EA and the AT can continue to tell everybody that the rivers have never been so good thanks to all their hard work.

 

[Joe Fletcher]

When things go wrong and you are looking for some one or some thing to blame ,Then its easy to find an escape goat to point the finger at
Even when there is no concrete evidence to back it up .

 

[Richard Hamlyn]

I saw this and thought of some of the posters on here................

NIGEL FARAGE SAYS :-

"I am the Tory Party's Worst Nightmare. I am a White, Tax-Paying, God
fearing English man. I am a hard working Brit and I work long hours to earn
a living.

I believe in God and the freedom of religion, but I don't push it on others.
I believe in British products and buy them whenever I can.

I believe the money I make belongs to me and not to some governmental
functionary, to share with others who don't work!

I think owning a home doesn't make you a capitalist; it makes you a smart
Brit. I think being a minority does not make you noble or victimized, and
does not entitle you to anything. Get over it. Join in with the majority!

I believe that if you are selling me a Big Mac, you should do it in English.
I believe there should be no other language option.

I believe everyone has a right to pray to his or her God when and where they
want to.

My heroes are fellow Brits like Freddy Flintoff and Winston Churchill and I
know I've missed a few thousand!!!!!


I don't hate the rich. What I hate is the way they always manage to avoid
paying proper taxes. I don't pity the poor, I just hate the way they are
always moaning that they are hard done by!!


I know wrestling is fake and I don't waste my time watching or arguing about
it.

I believe if you don't like the way things are here, go back to where you
came from and change your own country!

This is ENGLAND.....We like it the way it is and even more so the way it
was...so stop trying to change it to look like some other socialist country!
If you were born or legally migrated here and don't like it... you are free
to move to any Socialist country that will have you. I believe it is time to
really clean house, starting with the House of Commons, the seat of our
biggest problems.

I want to know where the "Do Gooders" get their money from, and why are they
always part of the problem and not the solution?
Can I get an AMEN on that one?

I also think the cops have the right to pull you over if you're breaking the
law, regardless of what race, colour or creed you are. And, no, I don't mind
having my face shown on my driving licence. I think it's good....


I dislike those people trying to guilt me into making 'donations' to their
cause....Get a job and support yourself and your family!

I believe 'illegal' is illegal no matter what the lawyers think!

I believe the Union Jack flag should be allowed to be flown anywhere in the
United Kingdom !

If this makes me a BAD Brit, then yes, I'm a BAD Brit. If you are a BAD Brit
too, please forward this to everyone you know....

We want our country back! My Country.....

I hope this offends all illegal aliens.

My great, great grandfather watched as his friends died in the Boer War. My
grandfather watched and bled as his friends died in World Wars 1&2. I
watched as my friends died in Sierra Leone Bosnia, & Desert Storm. Our sons
and daughters watched & bled as their friends died in Afghanistan and Iraq .
None of them died for the Afghanistan and Iraq Flag. Every Briton died for
the British flag.

At one high school, foreign students raised a Middle East flag on a school
flag pole. British students took it down. Guess who was expelled...the
students who took it down.

West London high school students were sent home, because they wore T-shirts
with the Union Jack flag printed on them.

What is going on?? What idiots do we have in authority?? Enough is enough.

This message needs to be viewed by every Brit; and every Briton needs to
stand up for Britain . We've bent over to appease the Brit-haters long
enough. I'm taking a stand.

I'm standing up because of the millions who died fighting in wars for this
country, and for the British flag.

And shame on anyone who tries to make this a racist message. IT IS NOT !

Britons, stop giving away Your RIGHTS !

THIS IS OUR COUNTRY !

This statement DOES NOT mean I'm against immigration !

YOU ARE WELCOME HERE, IN MY COUNTRY, welcome to come legally:

1. Get a sponsor !
2. Learn the LANGUAGE, as immigrants have in the past!
3. Live by OUR rules ! Dress as we Britons Do
4. Get a job !
5. Pay YOUR Taxes !
6. No Social Security until you have earned it and paid for it !
7. Find a place to lay your head !

If you don't want to forward this for fear of offending someone, then YOU'RE
PART OF THE PROBLEM !

We've gone so far the other way... bent over backwards not to offend anyone.

WAKE UP BRITAIN ! ! !

 

[Mike Hodgkiss]

Well we seem to have had a full and frank discussion on this one regarding the perceived decline in our river fisheries. The question I would like to ask first is a decline from what? It seems to me that the “gold standard” that everyone wants is as different and as varied as the opinions on the causes of the decline. The two anglers below are at opposite ends of the spectrum and there are surely several variables in between

The Pleasure Angler wants a good head of mixed species so that he can virtually guarantee getting a few bites when he goes fishing with his mewling children. If there is an apex predator (otter) that keeps eating the biggest fish in the river, but at the same time keeps other predators away that target the smaller fish he wants to catch, then where is the problem from his perspective? He does however want the cormorants targeted because he sees them eating the very fish he wants to catch. He also likes the trees removed as his casting is somewhat erratic and he loses precious tackle. He is relatively happy to share the river with dog walkers and Joe Public out for a bit of fresh air.

The Specimen Barbel Hunter wants the river to have large examples of his chosen quarry. He or she does not want horded of PA’s trying to catch tiddlers. In order for the river to produce such fish then it needs to have plenty of food but poor recruitment of small fish. The cormorant is his friend, the more small fish that are eaten the better and Ron and Reggie are an additional bonus as they not only eat the spawn but grow into good food for the Barbel. Inevitably recruitment is low but a small number of his beloved Barbel make it through to maintain the population of specimen fish. Otters are considered to be only slightly better than EE’s and he thinks the world would be a better place if one had ever existed and the other had stayed home rather than trying to better themselves.

Given the above there is hardly likely to ever be a “one size fits all policy” that would work. There is also NO CHANCE of the AT / EA / Government or any other organised (?) body putting one into action even if there was such a thing. So as you can see river fishing is doomed and we might as well accept it.

Hang on though….is there possibly another way. Why not let the individual controlling bodies do the job. Those stretches of water controlled by a syndicate (and there are going to be many more of these in the future) want the big Barbel or whatever. They can quietly go about their business of tree planting, bankside management and the setting of traps to catch Mr O safe in the knowledge that with restricted public access they are unlikely to cause concern. Kingfishers and Goosanders will abound eating the small fish and the idyll will be completed with grumpy individuals dressed in realtree who never admit to catching ‘owt.

A few miles downstream there will be a club / day ticket water with nice level platforms for people to put their folding garden chairs on and if they are really lucky they might even spot an Otter that has taken up residence if the noise of their radio’s has not frightened it.

Everybody has what they want, the people controlling everything are the people who have always done all the work, and the EA and the AT can continue to tell everybody that the rivers have never been so good thanks to all their hard work.

Richard .Next election you should stand for parliament as an independent with the above as the basis for your manifesto . Only flaw that I could see is, would you be able to cater for the serious pleasure angler who fishes for big specimens has children and likes Otters ?

 

[Richard Hamlyn]

Mike,

I would, of course, have them all shot........................

 

[Adrian Williams]

Richard .Next election you should stand for parliament as an independent with the above as the basis for your manifesto . Only flaw that I could see is, would you be able to cater for the serious pleasure angler who fishes for big specimens has children and likes Otters ?

Please don't encourage him Mike.