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Martin Salter blog

Bobby- I don't think you will find many disagreeing with the sentiment in your post as without doubt, we will struggle to build a meaningful voice unless anglers unite. The reality is that there have been too few studies performed that would allow for safe conclusions to be drawn. The issue with the blog hasn't got anything to do with study itself, its findings or the individuals involved, its simply the way they have been presented and the suggestion that it proves that otters don't eat barbel and a such, otters should be removed perhaps from any narrative around barbel decline. In my view it would be a mistake to do so as it is a mistake to conclude that otters are entirely responsible. I would urge people interested in this to read the article I provided a link to above.

If the findings of the study showed the presence of barbel in the otters diet, I think that in the main, the considered angler would take it as validation of what they instinctively believed but would also recognise the limitations of a study on one river when looking for a national perspective. We know that the fireworks go off on FB when things such as this come out but I don't believe that is a fair representation of the majority of anglers who take a more balanced view but which can be severely tested when their local river is perhaps suffering steep decline. Speak to any Kennet regular.
 
Hiya Shaun, a very interesting few comments from Des, for me especially regarding the Severn, in recent years Des is quoted for saying the Severn is 'alive and well', 'who says the Severn is dead?' many many times. You can probably find them within 5 minutes on his timeline if you looked. This is not a personal dig, but I feel he may take it that way, but it is questionable now that he is retiring from guiding and has been invited as ambassador that his view is entirely different regarding the barbel fishing on the Severn. Just a thought.
 
Howard, the only satisfactory conclusion will come when there is unquestionable evidence otters are completely decimating barbel populations. Ever possible due to many anglers finding accepted scientific research results ambiguous? Look at how many long term studies have been ripped apart in recent years on forums. I struggle to ever see it put to bed. Even if (hopefully) the concerned populations started to thrive again. I'm struggling mate, where in the opinions or the study does it say 'otters don't eat barbel'?. There was evidence that they do just from the data zones, albeit small. I'll have to read through it again. I think this was acknowledged by both scientist and concerned angler.
 
I see what you mean Bobby, but lots of it fits with the last three years anglers observation's for your (and my ish) river, from anglers top to bottom....perhaps the study would have shown different results for the last few years. Or perhaps several different stretches of the Warks where many anglers are reporting less fish and growing sightings of Otters. Both rivers I have caught many ropy looking fish from in recent years and seen less bankside birdlife where it was once abundant. As we have previously discussed, lets think positively that the fish left, will be "wising up" to their neighbours!
 
Howard Cooke said:
Joe-I certainly agree with this statement. The title of the blog (an inconvenient truth) gave the game away rather in terms of how the science was being presented and quite frankly, it's what has hacked a lot of people off. It could have just presented it as interesting insight and used the opportunity to encourage and promote more work of this kind to capture more data and analysis.

The attached report which may have previously been referenced in old threads is very interesting I think and worth a read. It makes reference to the relatively short life span of UK otters compared to their European cousins as well as stillwater fish increasingly featuring in the otters diet perhaps as a result of reduced river health. There is also mention of birds forming part of the otters diet. The report is nearly 5 years old so things would have moved on. I also think I saw reported somewhere recently that ground nesting birds are under increasing threat from predation, notably otters.

I am only hypothesising but to me its fairly logical to predict that dwindling fish stocks in rivers will force a change in the behaviour of otters-turning to other sources of food or even becoming more urbanised.

http://www.otter.org/documents/IOSF Otters and Fisheries Conference 2012 Edinburgh.pdf
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That's entirely logical Howard, switching prey is a key characteristic of a generalist predator like the otter, and indeed there is already evidence that wildfowl will form a larger bigger part of their diet when fish stocks are low:

http://connection.ebscohost.com/c/a...e-birds-diet-otter-lutra-lutra-shapwick-heath

That doesn't mean to say however this presents a threat (at a population level I mean) to those species of birds are being predated, they can be surprisingly resilient, predation is one of the reasons some birds aim to try and rear so many young.

I'll read the paper you have linked when I get time later.
 
I think the comments after Des's views paint a very clear picture of Anglers views. And so do the damage in the pictures that many of us have seen for ourselves.

I think it also highlights how the reports later summary was perceived.

Yes, other issues, too many, to tackle as well. Needs Leadership. But from who?
 
Cant really comment on the W.Avon as I only fish it a handful of times a year, so my opinion is void. The BS did have a very well known angler 2-3 years ago, who is a local, attend a Warwickshire regional launch meeting I set up for a talk, I asked him in front of the crowd then did he feel the otters were making a difference, he firmly said no. He feels completely different nowadays I believe. So it's shocking to see how much a predator can change someone's fishing in such a short time. Hard to get your head around - do they shift them on or just straight up kill them off?. The lower Severn was being written off as a barbel fishery just three years ago. And has been many times before that. Don't need to say much on that. Middle Severn can produce phenomenal catches still, 300+ in a season is very doable for regulars. DT has said similar in recent years, but that's all changed in recent days. Shrewsbury, even some of the old guard have just had the best winters barbel fishing and gone 100+ in the cold. Won't comment above Shrews ;) But there are many who have had a rotten season. Again, without a population study, make of it what you will.
 
Graham Elliott said:
I think the comments after Des's views paint a very clear picture of Anglers views. And so do the damage in the pictures that many of us have seen for ourselves.

I think it also highlights how the reports later summary was perceived.

Yes, other issues, too many, to tackle as well. Needs Leadership. But from who?
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What do you mean by later summary Graham?
 
It's the blog that's caused the controversy Bobby and not least in its title-the inconvenient truth presumably being that as no evidence of barbel was found in the spraint samples then otters don't eat them. The inconvieince being to those anglers that are continuing to blame otters for declining barbel stocks.

Anyway, the issue has been thrashed to death now and what should hopefully emerge is the realisation that far greater research needs to be done with a much bigger focus on recruitment which must surely be the key issue on a number of rivers. I do think the Kennet has been hit hard by otters, there is no doubt about that in my mind but I also see recruitment as an even bigger issue. What I have no idea of is the relative importance and impact of the various factors that contribute to poor recruitment and hence what, if anything, can be done about it.
 
Hi men,

Another top post Howard . The title riled me , because the rivers that we fished were 100% effected badly by otters , the title and thin facts really belittled those who fish those stretches , and those effected had the right to reply . I had people telling me they were hiding , or we should try different ways to fish for them. Usually from people sitting on quiet prolific bits of the Trent , Severn , and Wye .

As you say , been done to death , otters can't be taken out the equation , it needs looking at from a different angle , or we can wait giving it time , but I'm too old , it's past my time .


Hatter
 
I'm glad you feel there are bigger issues than the otter, Howard. I most certainly agree with you there, along with the need for further studies needed regarding predation. It is nigh on impossible to move forward without scientific research.
 
Hi men,

Iv gone back to carp fishing as well , where fencing can and does really help . In fact I'm donating some money towards a historic lake, where history was being made that changed the way we all fish . It was being ottered , now fenced but those who fish there ( not that I will ) know it needs more work , and it's the easy one only way Stillwater's can protect themselves , can't fence rivers .

Hatter
 
Graham Elliott said:
Joe.
As you said to me. After asking you a number of unanswered questions.

Ask the Barbel Society.
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Unanswered questions?, I thought you were being rhetorical to be honest.

'I dont think the original report contained the view I posted on here some time ago regarding lack of large fish liver and offal etc being identified. Or the fact that bones of large fish would be absent because of the flesh stripping'


If that's what you meant by later summary then that's not the case.

Sorry if I touched a nerve with one of my earlier comments ;)
 
Phew - put up a post go away for a week and wow... My two penny worth, and I am a great believer in the science, is that we cannot generalise from one highly focused case study. Did the science in this case prove or disprove the starting hypothesis and actually what was that? Whichever, the clear outcome is that more research is needed (but we already know this) and this costs money, which is around in angling but perhaps not where it can be best used. The other issue of course is that such studies take time and for certain rivers that does not seem to be on our side.

We also do need to work with a wide a range of agencies as possible in support of our cause - which is surely to have the best possible freshwater environment for all species, including apex predators such as the otter (imagine how odd and unbalanced the African plains would be without lions).

All anglers would happily accept otters if the ecosystem could sustain them and it is this that we must aim for. People pay a lot of money to go photograph otters in Scotland for example, I know sometimes we may not see it, but we are privileged to observe these creatures.
 
Paul Dowgill said:
Phew - put up a post go away for a week and wow... My two penny worth, and I am a great believer in the science, is that we cannot generalise from one highly focused case study. Did the science in this case prove or disprove the starting hypothesis and actually what was that? Whichever, the clear outcome is that more research is needed (but we already know this) and this costs money, which is around in angling but perhaps not where it can be best used. The other issue of course is that such studies take time and for certain rivers that does not seem to be on our side.

We also do need to work with a wide a range of agencies as possible in support of our cause - which is surely to have the best possible freshwater environment for all species, including apex predators such as the otter (imagine how odd and unbalanced the African plains would be without lions).

All anglers would happily accept otters if the ecosystem could sustain them and it is this that we must aim for. People pay a lot of money to go photograph otters in Scotland for example, I know sometimes we may not see it, but we are privileged to observe these creatures.
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Well said Paul ...and that'll teach you to have a week away from BFW:p
I think the wisest thing that any of us can say is "I/we don't know" ...for that IS the truth of it. Ok it's natural to have opinions, but when we start to believe our opinions are 'hard facts', without having the 'hard and unarguable evidence', then we are being foolish.
Overall my own opinion is that otters must have had some impact, and on balance I think that impact will have been a negative one. My thinking behind this is ... how can you have an 'eco system' that's working reasonably ok, then add thousands of apex predators to it, and not expect a high level of predation? But that is not excluding any other (additional and negative) factors from said 'eco equation'...I simply believe that the addition of otters is bad news for barbel (etc).
Re. "bad science" (the phrase I used earlier which Joe took exception to). The blog was about a study that could be seen as somewhat 'scientific' in its nature. Overall I'd say it amounted to a bit of data collection, and some surmising (scientific guessing?) If I was generous (like, late Friday night generous) I'd call it 'scientifically technical in nature', except that, having a title containing the word "truth" makes it bad science at best,...the kind of 'science' the Sun or Daily Mail might lap up.
I don't know....but I DO know that YOU don't know either. And that IS an "inconvenient truth":eek:
 
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