Alex Gowney
Senior Member & Supporter
I bet two years ago you'd have said the day will NEVER come when Leicester City win the Prem, Mike
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Martin Salter blog
- Thread starter Paul Dowgill
- Start date
I bet two years ago you'd have said the day will NEVER come when Leicester City win the Prem, Mike
Jason Murray
Senior Member & Supporter
I'm not sure of the full implications, but the Otter is on the European protected species list.It does not appear on our Nationally protected species list.So what happens when we leave Europe?
Jason
Jason
Alex Gowney
Senior Member & Supporter
It will go on to our Nationally protected list..
Howard Cooke
Senior Member
True Mike. But then perhaps it needs tackling from a different perspective. If you are an otter lover (someone that loves otters I mean, not someone who's better in bed than most others) then presumably you would care about the health of our rivers and surrounding habitat. I think most people would agree that otters are a part of the problem and on some/many rivers, a big part, but there are other issues that are arguably more profound in terms of recruitment-something fundamentally important for all sorts of reasons, not least to provide food for otters. So otter conservationists should care about recruitment. If fish are in short supply, what do otters do? Adapt their diets and target birds? If so the RSPB should care about that which means they should care about fish recruitment and therefore, the state of our rivers.
And if the otters run out of a reliable food source altogether? They have to move and find new places to hunt. This puts them in conflict with other otters and man. The result is death and hence why U.K. otters don't live as long as their European cousins.
Don't fight these groups, find common ground, establish mutual dependency and acquire a bigger voice.
Or, just keep stocking.....and stocking
Shaun Nurse
Senior Member
Absolutely agree again Howard!! Why do so many anglers assume that it has to be one way or the other??
They are protected, why not find away of protecting the fish too? It has just been passed that they can now be moved, (which was never allowed to happen previously) this is a giant step effectively and can be used to help both parties..
They are protected, why not find away of protecting the fish too? It has just been passed that they can now be moved, (which was never allowed to happen previously) this is a giant step effectively and can be used to help both parties..
John McGough
Senior Member & Supporter
It wasn't that many years ago when people were saying 'cormorants are protected'
Thanks to a lot of hard work and lobbying this is no longer the case.
Never say never and like Graham say's my main issue is people and groups not admitting this there is a problem, which seems to be no longer the case with the BS..........
Thanks to a lot of hard work and lobbying this is no longer the case.
Never say never and like Graham say's my main issue is people and groups not admitting this there is a problem, which seems to be no longer the case with the BS..........
Dave Taylor
Senior Member
As some of us have already kicked the otter survey and its implications around on the Hampshire Avon thread a month ago ( page 18 onwards), it maybe worth adding one indisputable fact for angling club members.
The financial burden on some clubs has been huge when faced with the costs of otter fencing. The tendency has been to circle the wagons and protect still water venues normally owned by clubs at great cost.
In some cases the implications have meant that river venues have had to be jettisoned in order to balance the books.
Fencing can often mean substantial habitat destruction to meet security criteria.
Funding from the EA has never been sufficient and the result is ever shrinking river portfolios which is a great shame imo.
I read the recent survey with genuine interest, but after spending many hours during the past 18 months observing otters on the Stour I tend to think that they will eat whatever is most easily available.
The financial burden on some clubs has been huge when faced with the costs of otter fencing. The tendency has been to circle the wagons and protect still water venues normally owned by clubs at great cost.
In some cases the implications have meant that river venues have had to be jettisoned in order to balance the books.
Fencing can often mean substantial habitat destruction to meet security criteria.
Funding from the EA has never been sufficient and the result is ever shrinking river portfolios which is a great shame imo.
I read the recent survey with genuine interest, but after spending many hours during the past 18 months observing otters on the Stour I tend to think that they will eat whatever is most easily available.
Mike Hodgkiss
Senior Member
The protecting the fish scenario is a difficult one , after all a cursory google by the none angler would see that we [ the anglers ]are ALLOWED to catch and kill fish legally . Now the vast majority of us don't kill our fish for food BUT it is enshrined in law that we can do this . At best we are seen as eccentrics who stuff nets full of fish then throw them back . The overall picture created is not exactly portraying us as sensitive conservationists looking after the environment and all its diverse inhabitants.
Anthony Pearson
Senior Member
The key line of 'when otters run out of food...' is the issue here. How many years has it taken for certain angling groups to admit there's a problem? And you suggest we work with the RSPB who currently don't have a problem at all! If the twitchers see anglers on rivers there must be fish. If there are fish, there's food for the otters. No problem then. As for increasing recruitment can't you see the inevitable....more food for more otters!
Shaun, if otters can now be moved (or did you mean the fish?)...where are they being moved to? Some stretch of a wonderful river with no other otters perhaps? Well ain't that just dandy!
Shaun, if otters can now be moved (or did you mean the fish?)...where are they being moved to? Some stretch of a wonderful river with no other otters perhaps? Well ain't that just dandy!
Joe Winstanley
Senior Member & Supporter
Where is the money then?
There needs to be research work, both short and long term, being commissioned across a wide range of catchments with the aim of better understanding both the issues associated with poor recruitment and predation. Given the huge complexity of the problems our rivers are facing, the depth of research required is vast, and no single study/report particularly on a single catchment, can ever be expected solve much on it's own, your often left with more questions than answers - but it's another brick in the wall towards finding the truth.
Joe Winstanley
Senior Member & Supporter
I agree, Martin Salter's comment about the barbel fishing on the Trent improving made me raise an eyebrow. I havent caught a barbel from the Trent under 8lb for several seasons, in fact not many under 9lb, thats cause for concern in my book.
Graham Elliott
Senior Member & Supporter
Thank God the Avon Roach project used common sense and believed in it and actually achieved something relevant and beneficial then, rather than fiddled about as Rome Burnt.
Graham Elliott
Senior Member & Supporter
By the way Joe. Any info on the spawning survey many of us contributed to for a number of years.
Woops another question. No answers to anything yet.
Woops another question. No answers to anything yet.
Anthony Pearson
Senior Member
John made a good point about cormorants which has been lost amidst my rantings etc. The protection of cormorants has had a devastating effect on the roach population of rivers. Maybe, if this problem is gradually reduced and the fish make a comeback, it will help sustain otter levels without them having such a massive impact on the barbel. Now that is worth doing some research on.
Joe Winstanley
Senior Member & Supporter
The Avon Roach Project is a fantastic example of anglers doing something positive - much more productive than just moaning on internet forums.
Joe Winstanley
Senior Member & Supporter
Ask the Barbel Society.
Mark Swaby
Senior Member
Anthony,Otters can be moved,but only if caught inside a fenced off fishery,and then only to the other side of the fence.By officially registered trappers only,i think there are 15 in the country
Shaun Nurse
Senior Member
That's the details to which I refer, thanks Mark.
Shaun Nurse
Senior Member
And on this whole point Steve Pope has made a statement in response, pasted here.....
The Barbel Society's response to the recent article by Martin Salter.
An interesting piece Martin, very well written as always.
Let’s go through it in detail and see what knowledge can really be taken from what is in effect a very limited study.
Also, I must make it very clear I am not one of the doom – mongers that you mention, my personal view sits somewhere in the middle of the spectrum.
I agree that the Angling Press are indeed still featuring reports of large barbel but I would suggest they only tell part of the story. Why would they have succumbed to the ‘otter plague’? They obviously reside in areas where there is a relative degree of safety.
Every barbel angler knows that the situation with regards to barbel populations is different on each river and indeed each venue.
Some rivers, in the main the larger ones, appear to cope reasonably well with an otter population – certainly far better than the smaller ones.
I would imagine the more plentiful and easier to obtain supply of food has something to do with that.
I know it may well have been said but I doubt that otters were going to eat them ( barbel) all, but some will say, and with a degree of justification that they have come pretty close!
Sound Science – now there’s a heading, just what does it mean in this context? I certainly take the view that we need a lot more of it and that includes study in those areas where the otter threat is perceived to be greater than on the Hampshire Avon – once of our premier rivers.
But let’s come to the core of the article, the actual study itself or to be exact; The Importance of Small Fishes and Invasive Crayfish in Otter diet in an English Chalk Stream.
To be more precise we are talking about three sections of the middle reaches of the Hampshire Avon.
You are quite right to mention the Barbel Society as Pete Reading is indeed a valued member who up until recently was our Research and Conservation officer.
Whilst in that position Pete carried out fantastic work that will hopefully have a long term positive impact. I feel it is very important to stress the fact that the Barbel Society wants to see more study in other areas and has total empathy with the anglers whose own fishing has suffered because of the otter situation. We have to show a real understanding of this otherwise far too many anglers feel their concerns are being ignored.
Guess what? I hear you say, but is it any great surprise there were precious few barbel bits found? Without a quantitative analysis of the stretches used, the point is rather lost, indeed Professor Britton practically says so himself in his report.
I do believe it’s condescending to suggest that the science and ‘ evidence’ makes some of your readers uncomfortable, that's precisely the reason it is so difficult to gain more support from anglers and you of all people should understand that. The suggestion implies that the rank and file do not understand - bad PR no matter which way you look at it!
The report states that the spraint analysis gave no evidence but that does not necessarily mean otters do not take barbel. That cannot be overlooked or summarily dismissed.
Far from an ‘Inconvenient Truth’, one could argue that the study is fatally flawed. I come back to the quantitative analysis chestnut.
The report states that the data provides important information for informing conservation conflicts between otter and Fishery interests, I would suggest that only holds true for similar conditions and I don’t believe the Hampshire Avon could be classed as typical.
I’m not a scientist but I think it’s fair to question if the analysis of 140 spraint is sufficient to at least suggest a more general assumption, which the title of the blog actually does.
I then come back to the point about the lack of quantitative data on the barbel population which really is a key issue and I totally agree with Professor Britton’s assertion that this needs to be addressed in any further study if we are really going to understand otter predation.
And finally on the report, I must reiterate that the extent is very limited and that has to be borne in mind. There are a number of statements in Pete Readings inclusion that I would like to pick up on. Pete does make it clear that it is his personal view and that’s important to make clear because of his past position in the Barbel Society. I agree with much of what Pete says but would take issue with some of the words used.
Moribund and tidied up would not sit comfortably with anglers whose venues have experienced, in their eyes, the otter plague.
I would also suggest that large barbel are not being eaten very often because they are not exactly prolific and other sources of food are easier to obtain.
Hunting down big barbel makes sense when that’s all there is!
It is reassuring to hear that Pete believes the Hampshire Avon has a sustainable barbel population, which has to be our goal across the country.
Anglers are notorious for jumping to conclusions but when they form a large number across the whole country then it’s wise to take note otherwise it can come across as I’m all right Jack and I’m sure that’s not the intention.
Empathy and understanding the concerns of fellow anglers is vital.
I hope Pete bears in mind the venue we both fish on the Kennet. This stretch is overrun with crayfish and also has resident otters – it is now practically devoid of any barbel or chub.
Perhaps the study should have taken place there?
In conclusion, the study cannot be seen in isolation. It’s use will be as part of a much wider programme and I hope we can make that happen.
Otherwise the blog gives a very misleading view of a situation that is of great concern to all of us.I hope those who have read the blog do not make base assumptions on what may well be a ‘one off’.
To that end I would say that instead of “inconvenient truths,” a more balanced title would have been “evidence – in question”.
A small part of a very complex case and the jury is still out.
Steve Pope
Barbel Society Chairman.
The Barbel Society's response to the recent article by Martin Salter.
An interesting piece Martin, very well written as always.
Let’s go through it in detail and see what knowledge can really be taken from what is in effect a very limited study.
Also, I must make it very clear I am not one of the doom – mongers that you mention, my personal view sits somewhere in the middle of the spectrum.
I agree that the Angling Press are indeed still featuring reports of large barbel but I would suggest they only tell part of the story. Why would they have succumbed to the ‘otter plague’? They obviously reside in areas where there is a relative degree of safety.
Every barbel angler knows that the situation with regards to barbel populations is different on each river and indeed each venue.
Some rivers, in the main the larger ones, appear to cope reasonably well with an otter population – certainly far better than the smaller ones.
I would imagine the more plentiful and easier to obtain supply of food has something to do with that.
I know it may well have been said but I doubt that otters were going to eat them ( barbel) all, but some will say, and with a degree of justification that they have come pretty close!
Sound Science – now there’s a heading, just what does it mean in this context? I certainly take the view that we need a lot more of it and that includes study in those areas where the otter threat is perceived to be greater than on the Hampshire Avon – once of our premier rivers.
But let’s come to the core of the article, the actual study itself or to be exact; The Importance of Small Fishes and Invasive Crayfish in Otter diet in an English Chalk Stream.
To be more precise we are talking about three sections of the middle reaches of the Hampshire Avon.
You are quite right to mention the Barbel Society as Pete Reading is indeed a valued member who up until recently was our Research and Conservation officer.
Whilst in that position Pete carried out fantastic work that will hopefully have a long term positive impact. I feel it is very important to stress the fact that the Barbel Society wants to see more study in other areas and has total empathy with the anglers whose own fishing has suffered because of the otter situation. We have to show a real understanding of this otherwise far too many anglers feel their concerns are being ignored.
Guess what? I hear you say, but is it any great surprise there were precious few barbel bits found? Without a quantitative analysis of the stretches used, the point is rather lost, indeed Professor Britton practically says so himself in his report.
I do believe it’s condescending to suggest that the science and ‘ evidence’ makes some of your readers uncomfortable, that's precisely the reason it is so difficult to gain more support from anglers and you of all people should understand that. The suggestion implies that the rank and file do not understand - bad PR no matter which way you look at it!
The report states that the spraint analysis gave no evidence but that does not necessarily mean otters do not take barbel. That cannot be overlooked or summarily dismissed.
Far from an ‘Inconvenient Truth’, one could argue that the study is fatally flawed. I come back to the quantitative analysis chestnut.
The report states that the data provides important information for informing conservation conflicts between otter and Fishery interests, I would suggest that only holds true for similar conditions and I don’t believe the Hampshire Avon could be classed as typical.
I’m not a scientist but I think it’s fair to question if the analysis of 140 spraint is sufficient to at least suggest a more general assumption, which the title of the blog actually does.
I then come back to the point about the lack of quantitative data on the barbel population which really is a key issue and I totally agree with Professor Britton’s assertion that this needs to be addressed in any further study if we are really going to understand otter predation.
And finally on the report, I must reiterate that the extent is very limited and that has to be borne in mind. There are a number of statements in Pete Readings inclusion that I would like to pick up on. Pete does make it clear that it is his personal view and that’s important to make clear because of his past position in the Barbel Society. I agree with much of what Pete says but would take issue with some of the words used.
Moribund and tidied up would not sit comfortably with anglers whose venues have experienced, in their eyes, the otter plague.
I would also suggest that large barbel are not being eaten very often because they are not exactly prolific and other sources of food are easier to obtain.
Hunting down big barbel makes sense when that’s all there is!
It is reassuring to hear that Pete believes the Hampshire Avon has a sustainable barbel population, which has to be our goal across the country.
Anglers are notorious for jumping to conclusions but when they form a large number across the whole country then it’s wise to take note otherwise it can come across as I’m all right Jack and I’m sure that’s not the intention.
Empathy and understanding the concerns of fellow anglers is vital.
I hope Pete bears in mind the venue we both fish on the Kennet. This stretch is overrun with crayfish and also has resident otters – it is now practically devoid of any barbel or chub.
Perhaps the study should have taken place there?
In conclusion, the study cannot be seen in isolation. It’s use will be as part of a much wider programme and I hope we can make that happen.
Otherwise the blog gives a very misleading view of a situation that is of great concern to all of us.I hope those who have read the blog do not make base assumptions on what may well be a ‘one off’.
To that end I would say that instead of “inconvenient truths,” a more balanced title would have been “evidence – in question”.
A small part of a very complex case and the jury is still out.
Steve Pope
Barbel Society Chairman.
Anthony Pearson
Senior Member
Stable door and bolting horse come to mind. Let's not fall out over all of this. Whatever research is done, however many nettings/fish counts are undertaken it's all after the event. We are where we are and have to live with it. Left to their own devices the otters will reach an equilibrium in terms of numbers and food supply. However, the spread of otters is out of our hands. There will be a natural movement from one catchment to another as rivers are continually depleted and stocks affected. Any interference in the natural system will probably just slow this process down. More stocking encourages the increase or maintenance of the otter population. Catch 22. If someone out there can see anything wrong with this argument would you be kind enough to spell it out for me, either on here or as a PM?
I just think that we're in for a rough ride in the years ahead; some rivers being affected far more than others as has already been pointed out. Yes there are natural cycles but this man-made one is possibly the biggest since the protection afforded to all species of cormorant by the EU (and that was an error!).
Just a thought....how about tagging all the otters to get an accurate picture of where they are and in what numbers? It would certainly keep those 15 registered trappers busy for a while.
I just think that we're in for a rough ride in the years ahead; some rivers being affected far more than others as has already been pointed out. Yes there are natural cycles but this man-made one is possibly the biggest since the protection afforded to all species of cormorant by the EU (and that was an error!).
Just a thought....how about tagging all the otters to get an accurate picture of where they are and in what numbers? It would certainly keep those 15 registered trappers busy for a while.