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Martin Salter blog

It's enormously saddening to see what should be a measured debate about the results of a study, descend into bitter and personal attacks. The absolute truth is that this serves no meaningful purpose except for those involved to feel some moment of triumph by landing a digital punch. It's embarrassing, enormously petty and means it's almost impossible for anglers to unite behind what should be a common cause, even if we disagree on the components of that cause. Ego and politics are causing paralysis as we simply repeat old arguments and ignite personal differences and disfunction.

We have so many vastly experienced and knowledgable anglers, many on this forum and to me it's a missed bite that we don't harness all that expertise in a meaningful way.

An open, transparent and collaborative approach with clubs and societies is needed for data gathering and analysis. Accountability in relation to funding deployed and reporting back to contributors is also key in my view so that there is a sense of a united national initiative aimed and understanding the relative impacts of the many factors we believe affect the health of our rivers. Creating a universal truth might be impossible because the issues are far too nuanced which is why it needs the support and contribution from local clubs which also means you can capitalise on that invaluable knowledge of local anglers. I am a fan of science and analysis but equally, it would be folly to ignore local knowledge and insight.

And before people use this as an opportunity to blame and criticise the BS, the fact of the matter is the R&C function has not managed to do that to the level required but I know it aspires to do so.

It's vital to look forward and set up camp on common ground.
 
Howard

I agree with your post and specifically clubs and societies getting together to share information, I have offered the assistance of Ringwood and district to Martin and he has said he may call on us.
Every time this topic or the close season is discussed it becomes a boxing match with the same people on one side and the same people on the other.
What I will say to those anglers who say they have fished for X number of years and not seen an otter kill it doesn't mean that otters don't kill barbel, the anglers like myself who have fished for X number of years and have seen otter kills of barbel it means that they do kill barbel and that is a fact.
As Steve Derby says at the moment the only way around this will be to keep stocking the rivers, unfortunately due to funding most clubs won't be in a position to do this and the EA when I last asked wouldn't give us permission to stock barbel into the Hampshire Avon.
Before people say that if they say that the river obviously doesn't need to be stocked, one of the reasons I was given was that it would be "a waste of money" even though we were willing to pay for the barbel.
 
Unfortunately, far too much of our so called evidence about the condition of riverine ecosystems is anecdotal and based on first-hand observation and this is what leads to the varying views held, hence 'emotion' takes the forefront rather than rational evidence-based discussion. In the 21st century annecdotal evidence is just not sufficient, for example, I saw a dead badger yesterday that had been run over by a car. Do we ban cars from country roads, of course not, before taking any action we need to analyse over time the scale of the problem and consider any other causes, for example the suicidal tendencies of badgers, is it just one type of car, does it only happen between 3-4am or the fact that badgers like to play chicken etc. The serious point is we need scientific evidence before anything will happen - given the EA is not going to lead on this then surely it needs to be angling groups and in this is where the Angling Trust and BS come in. We seem to have bleated on about this as long as I have been a member of this forum; surely the key question is how do we move forward so we have the clout groups such as RSPB. Even the British Shooting Association has conservation at the end of its name !!!!
 
Paul

You are correct but the last 3 electrofishing surveys of the Hampshire avon by the EA have been cancelled which makes it difficult to see what state the river is in. Must admit I was glad the last planned one was cancelled 2 years ago as one of our stretches of river was due to be electrofished on June 15th!.
 
Phil Nixon said:
Howard

I agree with your post and specifically clubs and societies getting together to share information, I have offered the assistance of Ringwood and district to Martin and he has said he may call on us.
Every time this topic or the close season is discussed it becomes a boxing match with the same people on one side and the same people on the other.
What I will say to those anglers who say they have fished for X number of years and not seen an otter kill it doesn't mean that otters don't kill barbel, the anglers like myself who have fished for X number of years and have seen otter kills of barbel it means that they do kill barbel and that is a fact.
As Steve Derby says at the moment the only way around this will be to keep stocking the rivers, unfortunately due to funding most clubs won't be in a position to do this and the EA when I last asked wouldn't give us permission to stock barbel into the Hampshire Avon.
Before people say that if they say that the river obviously doesn't need to be stocked, one of the reasons I was given was that it would be "a waste of money" even though we were willing to pay for the barbel.
Click to expand...

How does that work...? Because you have seen Barbel carcass that you attributed to Otter kill not fact, just an opinion. And I am afraid this is all we have as Anglers, opinions to counter any arguments that Otter are not responsible for the decline in Barbel.

Besides who really cares about the demise in Barbel, apart from those that fish for them?

The only thing that matters is the Otter's revival that is a huge success story.
 
This reminds me of the Brexit debate,lots of opinions and theories but no one really knows the truth.There are a lot of intelligent good guys contributing here,but to me it goes back to the age old problem with Angling-there's no leadership,no body to represent us mere mortals,no facts gathered and processed to present to the concerned likes of me who would love to know the truth-not people's different opinions,as honest as they may be.
I don't know the answer because I don't know the indisputable facts.......
 
Changing the subject slightly, am I right in thinking the game fishing fraternity makes less noise about other predation than their coarse fishing brethren?

I'd have thought that an otter would find plenty of food on, say, the River Test, yet we never seem to hear about them preying on trout and salmon. Might the owner and users of these more exclusive fisheries be taking, err, a more proactive response to the situation? Many river keepers are also good shots, but could easily mistake an otter for a rabbit having a swim, perhaps? Or an otter might not realise that only mink are allowed in large mink traps?

Might this be the reason we are not hearing uproar from what is usually angling's most effective lobbyists? Just a thought...
 
Steve Double said:
Changing the subject slightly, am I right in thinking the game fishing fraternity makes less noise about other predation than their coarse fishing brethren?

I'd have thought that an otter would find plenty of food on, say, the River Test, yet we never seem to hear about them preying on trout and salmon. Might the owner and users of these more exclusive fisheries be taking, err, a more proactive response to the situation? Many river keepers are also good shots, but could easily mistake an otter for a rabbit having a swim, perhaps? Or an otter might not realise that only mink are allowed in large mink traps?

Might this be the reason we are not hearing uproar from what is usually angling's most effective lobbyists? Just a thought...
Click to expand...

Absolutely spot on comment ,of course there will be no evidence to back this up for obvious reasons, but you do tend to find that rivers with good salmon runs or lots of spooty herberts present don't appear to have an otter problem , hmm....
 
Mike Hodgkiss said:
Absolutely spot on comment ,of course there will be no evidence to back this up for obvious reasons, but you do tend to find that rivers with good salmon runs or lots of spooty herberts present don't appear to have an otter problem , hmm....
Click to expand...

The Wye of course is once again atypical as it has salmon, barbel and otters (not sure about the spooty herberts though)...so what is the reason for what appears (opinion not science) to me a more balanced ecosystem on this river?
 
Mike Hodgkiss said:
Absolutely spot on comment ,of course there will be no evidence to back this up for obvious reasons, but you do tend to find that rivers with good salmon runs or lots of spooty herberts present don't appear to have an otter problem , hmm....
Click to expand...
:D:D
The H.Avon has enjoyed a couple of good years for Salmon numbers I believe, and I've seen plenty of otter activity. After all, the guys were collecting spraints from 3 different locations on the river.
It did however occur to me when out on Wednesday watching a big knackered cock salmon swimming aimlessly round and around near the surface, gradually being taken downstream by the current, what a bonus the silver tourists must be to otters.
Plenty of mink platforms up and down the river,... the otters like to use them for having a dump on to mark territory!
A fortnight ago I was out with the Roach Project witnessing the guys putting a good few into the river at Sopley,...what wonderful work they do, despite the fact that we were being closely watched by cormorants, they keep on keeping on.

https://barbel.co.uk/site/vbulletin/forum/members/picture.php?albumid=490&pictureid=5882

If I had used my decent camera the pic would have included a couple of cormorants in a dead tree just above Trev's head!
 
I'm on a game fishing forum and the general attitude towards otters is that they're not a problem, in fact most enjoy seeing them.
River/general coarse anglers seem mostly split, carp anglers majority hate them with a passion. This is what I've found.

As I see it some rivers do not have a problem with otters being present and not just the large rivers. Surely the answer is to work out why this is the case so improvements can be made to the rivers that do have an issue? After all I think one thing we can all agree on is that nothing legally can be done to reduce otter numbers.
 
I have witnessed an Otter attacking a Swans nest and eating the eggs, this left the Swan sitting on an empty nest for a considerable time, not nice and not natural.
Last season on three occasions Otters attacked Pike anglers baits, one was hooked but fortunately it came off.
Another angler had a commotion going on with his keep net, he thought a Pike had attacked his net after his catch, when he lifted his net an Otter was hanging on the end.
On numerous occasions Otters have made there way out of the water onto the bank ALMOST begging for food from an angler, Why are they so brazen ?
Then we have the famous picture of the Otter that was way beyond any water and was pictured going into the café at the garden centre at Parley, perhaps he was fed up with fish.....a bit of egg and bacon might make a change.
Is it right for these creatures of the wild not to be afraid of humans ?
They trespass on private property raiding peoples ponds, many a fishery owner is struggling to make ends meet with the loss of fish stocks and struggle to find funds to erect Otter fencing.
So what can we do ?........NOTHING.
Until the PROTECTION order is lifted we just have to put up with it all.
May I say that not all dead fish on the bank can be seen by many anglers, Foxes and rodents do clear some remains.
I spend many hours on the riverbank every day so this will increase the chance to see much what is going on.
So to sum up, it is not very often that I will post on the subject of Otters, all the talk and opinions will come to nothing, I just get on with managing the river at Throop and try to enjoy all that is put before us, watching anglers catching the fish of there dreams and meeting up with the lads with their passion for angling.
We do the very best we can with not much help from those of higher authority that should use some common sense and not make the lack of money an excuse to turn their backs.
Brian.
 
Brian, after watching the documentaries on Otters up in Scotland with the cameraman unable to get close to them, they are very wary. This is why i suspect people are still illegally releasing them,they are too tame.I have no proof but it makes too much sense.
 
In the past you'd have a problem photographing a fox in the wild. Now they saunter up the city roads as if they own the place. I had a fox with its four young under my garden shed and filmed them for weeks. Foxes can be shot but there are all sorts of rules governing shooting within certain distances of public roads, hence they tend to be untouched. Otters have worked it out too....they have nothing to fear (the ones in areas that are heavily populated that is...i.e. they see humans (anglers) on a regular basis).
 
Mark Swaby said:
Brian, after watching the documentaries on Otters up in Scotland with the cameraman unable to get close to them, they are very wary. This is why i suspect people are still illegally releasing them,they are too tame.I have no proof but it makes too much sense.
Click to expand...

Mark, I snapped this deer in the garden last week, not using telephoto.
https://barbel.co.uk/site/vbulletin/forum/members/picture.php?albumid=490&pictureid=5884
It was one of 4 who had swam the river to nibble the new buds on my plants.
Wasn't bothered about me at all, made me wonder if a neighbor was feeding them?
I was also thinking about the celebrity wildlife photographers encamped out on a cold windy beach waiting with telephoto lenses for a sight of an otter as if they were as rare as unicorns, when I've had them swim under the rod tip on the Stour.
They're either starving hungry to be out in daylight or have become almost tame through not seeing humans as a threat.
I caught a clip of ' back from the brink' on the box last night which was about endangered species in the U.K. When the journalist asked a girl why she was keen to protect Ladybird spiders on Arne reserve, she answered, ... because they're pretty. I figured she would probably never love a barbel!
The local wildlife reserve a few hundred yards downstream of me has a big sign at the upstream entrance with pictures of species likely to be seen. The biggest pic in the center pride of place is of an otter.
As Brian wisely says,..we just have to get on and continue to enjoy fishing whilst we can.
 
Anthony Pearson said:
In the past you'd have a problem photographing a fox in the wild. Now they saunter up the city roads as if they own the place. I had a fox with its four young under my garden shed and filmed them for weeks. Foxes can be shot but there are all sorts of rules governing shooting within certain distances of public roads, hence they tend to be untouched. Otters have worked it out too....they have nothing to fear (the ones in areas that are heavily populated that is...i.e. they see humans (anglers) on a regular basis).
Click to expand...

Raising the stakes here I think, promoting Otters to some sort of super intelligent species that will be the demise of man let alone his fish.;)

Of course any wild creature worth it's salt will happily 'invade' man's space, after all we carve up it's territory seems only fair that we share the spoils.

However the Otter I have seen haven't actually yet sat next to me on the bank, but I was treated once to a Mink Mum and her kittens 'playing' and nicking food off me on a all night Tench session in Devon many years back, I would think they were well used to seeing anglers on the bank.

Of course if Otters do become more urbanised I would think the road kill would soon mount, unless they are just too clever.
 
Mark Swaby said:
Brian, after watching the documentaries on Otters up in Scotland with the cameraman unable to get close to them, they are very wary. This is why i suspect people are still illegally releasing them,they are too tame.I have no proof but it makes too much sense.
Click to expand...

Just returned from Bonny Scotland, and spoke to a Photographer called Charlie Phillips at Chanonry Point while we were looking out for Moray firth dolphins. He showed me a picture he captured of an otter eating a ling! I didn't ask him how close he got but i am guessing they are different creatures to what we see on our rivers, being far more cautious of us humans.
 
David Maddison said:
Just returned from Bonny Scotland, and spoke to a Photographer called Charlie Phillips at Chanonry Point while we were looking out for Moray firth dolphins. He showed me a picture he captured of an otter eating a ling! I didn't ask him how close he got but i am guessing they are different creatures to what we see on our rivers, being far more cautious of us humans.
Click to expand...

Apparently not, they are the same Lutra lutra, Scottish Otter are flourishing, and have adapted well to taking sea fish. The piece I read also mentioned that road kill is the biggest killer to the species. Some 8,000 Scottish Otter abound.:eek:
 
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