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Martin Salter blog

I posted on Martins blog regarding a 14lb barbel being dragged along the bank in the middle of the day witnessed by RDAA'S Lower stour manager. Ian Crook then went on and said that all the reports he had heard had never been substantiated by photos insinuating it didn't happen. I have tried to post the photo below on the blog but was unable to, well here you are Ian a photo taken after the otter returned to the water, the barbel is bent as the otter was swimming upstream.

otter%20barbel_zpsdbzlpr3t.jpg
 
It's difficult to understand what he was trying to do in highlighting the results the way he did. Calling people names and looking down on them for holding opinions that are different to his own is hardly helpful in tackling something that is important to all of us

If I were him I would think twice about using his career as proof he has better analytical skills than the rest of us, all that politicians seem to be good at is looking after themselves and drawing as much attention to themselves as possible. Which is what this appears to be to me
 
John made a good point about cormorants which has been lost amidst my rantings etc. The protection of cormorants has had a devastating effect on the roach population of rivers. Maybe, if this problem is gradually reduced and the fish make a comeback, it will help sustain otter levels without them having such a massive impact on the barbel. Now that is worth doing some research on.

Anthony, licences to shoot cormorants have been in place for the past few years. In the Hampshire Avon valley we have been able to shoot 140 birds this year an increase from last years 115 birds. It isn't having much if any effect on the number of cormorants monitored in their roosts each year. We have recently applied for an increase in this years numbers but it has been turned down by natural england. It will be interesting to see how many birds we are allowed to shoot next year.Leading the fight against the cormorants are Trevor Harrop and Budgie from the Avon roach project assisted by Martin Salter. Hopefully Martin will eventually realise the feeling amongst anglers regarding otters but he will only do that by going and talking to them, not just listening to a few of them.
 
I posted the following on Facebook directly in response to a post Martin had made. His response was that he totally agreed with my statement at the end. That statement starts by saying that otters do eat barbel. The most favourable interpretation of his blog is that it was very poorly written.



Martin, any insight gained as a result of scientific study is always useful and all should acknowledge and respect Pete for undertaking the work he has to secure that insight. But it's an enormous leap from that limited study to what is being suggested as a reasonable conclusion. The title of the blog refers to an "inconvenient truth", suggesting that we can somehow extrapolate the results of Pete's work on the Avon to a national dimension. Pete would agree that it wouldn't stand up to scientific scrutiny. In addition, you can't on the one hand state the absolute importance of science to support contentions made about barbel stocks or other dynamics impacting the quality of our rivers and then claim the the barbel stocks on the Avon have stabilised or even increased over the past 10 years without providing the evidence that supports such a statement. Perhaps it's been done and I just haven't seen it. Without it, that makes Pete's views simply anecdotal but clearly of value and importance because of his intimate knowledge and experience of the river. But by the same token, the views of other anglers in relation to other rivers should be greeted with the same respect.

Can you argue with the following statement:

Otters do eat barbel and are partially responsible for the reduction in barbel stocks. The impact has been more profound on some rivers and the reasons for that are complex. Every river has its own relatively unique dynamics that impact on its ability to support the recruitment of barbel and other species. Understanding those dynamics is key to determining what legal and practical intervention can take place in order to improve the health of a river that is found to be suffering some measure of decline. There should be a shared desire to build and maintain a healthy river system amongst many stakeholders (not just anglers) and as such shouldn't there be far greater collaboration including the sharing of resources in order to achieve a mutually desirable outcome?
 
Firstly I would like to congratulate Phil Nixon for being prepared to put his experienced point of view.

He is skilled enough to know some areas of the river seem to contain simply 3 or 4 big fish at the moment. Thats about all.

I know Ian Crook well. Lovely bloke. However he has always maintained that rivers like the Pats and Kennet and Loddon have plenty of barbel, we just need to change the way we fish!!! Im guessing he's basing this on repeated big fish captures on the Rivers mentoned.

Yes pretty much every other person disagrees. Even SP has realised my observations over the past 10 years regarding the Kennet have proved correct.
Look back at the river threads and see.

Fishing the river 3 or 4 times a week then gives you some insight!

Anglers views HAVE been pretty much ignored, and whilst understanding the potential long term benefits of scientific studies, half cocked prognosis on a simple analysis is more harmful than observational facts.

I still don't see any true leadership by the BS on many of the issues. Not suprising I guess with apparant differing views within the Organisation.
 
Firstly I would like to congratulate Phil Nixon for being prepared to put his experienced point of view.

He is skilled enough to know some areas of the river seem to contain simply 3 or 4 big fish at the moment. Thats about all.

I know Ian Crook well. Lovely bloke. However he has always maintained that rivers like the Pats and Kennet and Loddon have plenty of barbel, we just need to change the way we fish!!! Im guessing he's basing this on repeated big fish captures on the Rivers mentoned.

Yes pretty much every other person disagrees. Even SP has realised my observations over the past 10 years regarding the Kennet have proved correct.
Look back at the river threads and see.

Fishing the river 3 or 4 times a week then gives you some insight!

Anglers views HAVE been pretty much ignored, and whilst understanding the potential long term benefits of scientific studies, half cocked prognosis on a simple analysis is more harmful than observational facts.

I still don't see any true leadership by the BS on many of the issues. Not suprising I guess with apparant differing views within the Organisation.

Are we going reading the same paper? I didn't read a single word of prognostication in Britton et al? :confused:
 
Very harsh Terry, and very unfair. The 'peer-reviewed' paper by Britton et al.,might not provide you with the answers you were hoping for, but that does not make it 'bad science'.

All I'm saying Joe is... just cus they didn't find many barbel scales in the spraint it doesn't mean that those very otters hadn't at least killed, if not eaten, barbel.
At very best the finding are indicative ... but by NO means are they definitive. IMHO.
 
Graham

Thanks for your kind words, I am certainly not an "expert" but have been an angler for nearly 60 years. Being secretary of RDAA puts me in the privileged position of hearing the views of a lot of anglers on the otter situation and honestly VERY few don't see them as an issue.
The work reported on Martins blog IS fact but certainly not all the story, if I don't eat an indian take away for a month then the post mortem can say I hadn't eaten a vindaloo but not that I DON'T eat vindaloo.
Compared to issues that other rivers have the Avon is in a much better position than them and the Wye is in a much better position than the Avon. Obviously there is very little we can do at the moment but go back not too long ago and the same was said about cormorants. My worry is that by the time people who can do something realise what is going on it may be too late.
 
Phil.
Exactly my thoughts. I raised on here the fact that the results actually only told us otters eat small fish whole.

The summary expounded by others indicated therefore not a problem.

And yes I live next to a river full of barbel where the impact is probably negliable.

But I know the impact on other smaller rivers. It's obviously not the only issue we need to be aware of.

Having seen a dozen barbel leap out of a water as a pair of otters went through I know they weren't just on display mode!

An angler for 50 years.
 
The issue for me here is not the study undertaken and the reporting of its findings- it's the fact that it is being presented as some sort of absolute, universal truth-just look at the title of the blog. It provides insight but has natural limitations because its one river and arguably over a relatively short period of time. It's essentially a snapshot. It's a shame the blog wasn't used to promote the need for more studies and more research so that a far more complete picture can be obtained. And this shouldn't just be about otters. What about the impact of crayfish and so on. I think we would all agree that recruitment is the key issue with the otter exacerbating the issue on many rivers.

I also think it's wrong to dismiss the angler experience in any analysis-it must help, even if as part of a validation exercise because that should be powerful when combined with data. Pete Reading clearly relies on this himself with his personal assessment of the barbel population on the Avon. Whether other anglers, equally intimate and experienced on the river, would concur with his conclusions, remains to be seen.

Sadly there is far too much animosity flying about within the angling community which regularly surfaces and when it does, a degree of paralysis occurs when it comes to considering the bigger picture. There is a great deal of history and I have no doubt, bad experiences and very poor behaviour by many. It's certainly not my place to comment on that, but I would observe that until we are able to build unity, perhaps around a common purpose, then we will be left just debating and arguing about it on forums.

Whilst Pete Reading comes in for a fair amount of criticism (I have made observations-to Pete directly) no one should question his passion and willingness to do something. But it really needs a national approach and the genuine commitment of anglers/clubs/fishery owners etc. to connect and contribute. However, this is very difficult and not least because quite naturally, many anglers just want to fish-time is precious so picking up otter **** and taking scale samples and so on isn't always on an anglers to do list when they go fishing.

Of course they might if they felt that others were doing likewise and they had faith in the systems in place to capture, record and present results. To Graham Elliot's point earlier in the thread, it is important that when people do contribute data/samples etc. that they see the results of any analysis provided-even if the result is that its inconclusive because of a lack of data and so on.
 
Credit due to Martin Salter who has posted the photo I put on here, it is on his blog.
 
It shows an otter taking a barbel!
Some seem to question the validity of the report even on the river on which the study was conducted. It seems to backed up anecdotally too though doesn't it? John, how does your 80 odd fish season compare to years past?
 
Martin Salters blog smacks of the AT trying to put a positive spin on a situation, otter predation in rivers, that is unlikely to be resolved. The Avon, Thames, Trent and Wye are ok and otters don't eat barbel... The results of the survey should be used with other data not presented as being almost conclusive. Poor journalism at the best, misleading spin at the worst.
 
Damian,
Over the last 10 season I have averaged 71 fish per season with the best season in 08/09 with 108 fish and the worst in 10/11 with 40 fish.
This would appear to show that my results are fairly inconclusive either for or against.
What I am very concerned about is from 81 fish this season from the Avon I never had a fish under 6 pounds although when I spoke to Pete R last he'd had quite a few smaller fish including 2-3 pounders.
On a positive note I did spot a shoal of at least 50 fish on Blashford shallows between 6 and 15 inches which obviously include several years classes.
I have spotted less otters this season on the river than I have in the previous 4 or 5 years, having said that one area in particular that has always been plagued by otters in the past years I have avoided this season because of extreme angling pressure.
I would say that there is a huge gap missing in years classes ( fish between 2 and 6 pounds )
I would be interested to hear of other Avon regular findings.
 
It shows an otter taking a barbel!
Some seem to question the validity of the report even on the river on which the study was conducted. It seems to backed up anecdotally too though doesn't it? John, how does your 80 odd fish season compare to years past?

Typical of you Damian, if you put a comment like "It shows an otter taking a barbel" explain what you mean. Good job Martin Salter isn't as biased as you, regardless of what certain people say you will back them.
 
In as much as from the report you deduce it is given to mean this is the case everywhere, the inclusion of that picture seems to say to you otters are eating the barbel everywhere.
Neither is the case Phil.
So anecdotally you would have to say your season has been slightly better average John? I first noticed otters in the Avon both on the Estate and elsewhere in '97. When did you start noticing the gaps in the year classes?
 
Damien if you read what I wrote above the photo you will see why I posted it, as I said Martin Salter has now added it to the blog, I never made a statement about otters eating barbel everywhere. Having said that if as shown in the picture otters eat barbel on the Dorset stour wouldn't you agree that where they are present on other rivers that they eat barbel, or are there different types of otter.
 
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