Kicked out for catching too many!

[Chris Jones]

Just to add another dimension to this debate.

In a four year period of Twyford and District Club that I entered fish into the Trophy specimen fish competition I managed to win the Chub cup 3 times and the Barbel cup 4 times (I think) including a River record.

Should I have been banned? (don't answer that Crooky!)

Should I have been told to fish elsewhere? Maybe to up my game and fish the Hants Avon only?

I just happened to love the River and its moods and beauty.

Graham

No, but did you take a fiver, ten quid or more from every angler that entered?
I've got a feeling you didn't. It's not about someone being better, it's not about them winning. It's all about people feeling fleeced.

A pool hall shark might be celebrated for his skill but would be looked down upon for fleecing the gullible. The scenario being discussed is the same.

 

[Clive Kenyon]

Maybe, but what's Angling coming to? I well remember catching a 10-06 barbel, from bite, to fight, to resting in my net, to taping, weighing and careful return, in front of a Colne Valley club committee member when he had stopped to chat with me several years ago, with he barely able to say goodbye to me (correcting my "Goodbye, Dave" to "David") as I passed him as I walked off the river half an hour later after packing up and heading for home, with my name dirt in local tackle shops and on the bank forever afterwards.

Same in Bingo and WMC raffles. When outsiders are lucky enough pop in and fluke the Bingo or raffle all hell breaks loose.

 

[Nic Costar]

He might enjoy it but it doesn't look like his "mates" did, they've just banned him.



I half agree with the principal. However, if it's meant to be just a friendly knock about of anglers of similar ability, it's a different story. As far as I'm concerned, the simplest solution in this case would be to ban pools and match fees (presuming every angler is a club member). I don't know many that object to getting beaten by better anglers. They do tend to get a bit miffed if all they are doing is subsidising other folks fishing.

IMO, pools are what stops most average anglers from ever match fishing.
Anyone that feels that they are being milked for cash isn't likely to keep going unless they believe that they can become one of those doing the milking. No matter how good the anglers concerned, I openly question the morality of pools in match fishing.

Match fees cover alot in these matches Chris, (1) peg fee if the club fish a venue not owned by them ? (2) the club will take out cost from the match fees to cover cost of trophies for later in the year, (3) booking fees for the up and coming new season (normally the owners what some sort of down payment) (4) any phone calls, paper work etc all has to come from somewhere and thats from the match fees.

Most small clubs will have say £3-5 pools on the day, £5-8 for peg fee plus £2-3 going towards the running of the club,so anything from £10-15 for a small club match.

 

[Graham Elliott]

Chris. His mates didn't ban him. The Club Committee did. Probably led by the moaning minis that had influence.

you said "It's not about someone being better, it's not about them winning. It's all about people feeling fleeced." Possibly. Possibly not.

Of course it might as well have been that those that frequently won before wanted to win again and take the dosh?i

But it's good to have differing views. It might have been you it happened to.......

 

[Chris Jones]

Match fees cover alot in these matches Chris, (1) peg fee if the club fish a venue not owned by them ? (2) the club will take out cost from the match fees to cover cost of trophies for later in the year, (3) booking fees for the up and coming new season (normally the owners what some sort of down payment) (4) any phone calls, paper work etc all has to come from somewhere and thats from the match fees.

Most small clubs will have say £3-5 pools on the day, £5-8 for peg fee plus £2-3 going towards the running of the club,so anything from £10-15 for a small club match.

Nic,
I'm well aware of what peg fees cover and that's no problem whatsoever. I don't object to contributing to a club via peg fees or via my season ticket.
It's the pools that are an issue. I know that they are sometimes "optional". However, I also know that it can go down like a lead balloon when you opt out. Paying your way is fair enough, paying for someone else to go fishing via pools is not. If it's an even playing field of like minded and similar standard angler, pools can have a place. If not, they are always going to cause problems. Even if the problems are only apparent by no new blood fishing or people knocking it all on the head.

If all this is about is getting beaten by a better angler then I'd agree that the club is pretty sad. If I wasn't a non-gambler, I'd put good money on it being about pools and members feeling fleeced.

 

[Alex Gowney]

But surely this is absolutely no different than any other sport, if Man Utd were playing in the Championship and winning every year they would be expected to move up to the Premiership.................. Many sports have seeding, similar to golf having handicaps, competitions where people are paying money to enter should be based on a fair level of capability where possible. I would be fully behind such a decision if it had to be taken in our local club, if someone is streets ahead of the rest they need to move on, otherwise numbers will just drop............

The article says he wins 50% of his matches. No football club would get promoted for winning 50% of their matches. I realise this is a bit different but I wonder if the club considered introducing some sort of handicap system instead of just kicking him out? Then he could still fish the matches if wanted to while giving the others a chance. I think it's a spiteful, selfish act and typical of the small mindedness of match dominated comittees

 

[Chris Jones]

Chris. His mates didn't ban him. The Club Committee did. Probably led by the moaning minis that had influence.

you said "It's not about someone being better, it's not about them winning. It's all about people feeling fleeced." Possibly. Possibly not.

Of course it might as well have been that those that frequently won before wanted to win again and take the dosh?i

But it's good to have differing views. It might have been you it happened to.......

It's always possible that the usual winners were annoyed at losing their cash cow.

But no, it's not happened to me. I've not fished a match in at least ten years. The last one I did fish I won. However, on principal, I'd not entered the pools.

I won't enter any match where pools are compulsory. I'm quite happy to win or, much more likely, get beaten by anyone. I don't like giving money away though and I don't like feeling like I've just skinned a bunch of dupes.

Did you take money off every member that entered the Twyford and District Trophy specimen fish competition then?

 

[David Hall]

The article says he wins 50% of his matches. No football club would get promoted for winning 50% of their matches. I realise this is a bit different but I wonder if the club considered introducing some sort of handicap system instead of just kicking him out? Then he could still fish the matches if wanted to while giving the others a chance. I think it's a spiteful, selfish act and typical of the small mindedness of match dominated committees

considering winning matches is 50 per cent on what peg you draw, i think he's got a bit of talent.

 

[Ian Crook]

As I said, in other sports, handicaps, seeding, categorization of various forms (boxing weights, judo belts, etc) are put in place to keep things even. No one has responded at all to those comments from my earlier post.

Many years ago, in a land far, far away, reet oop north, I used to fish matches, big ones and small ones and I did ok. One of the biggest reason myself and a few others tended to win was bait, we could afford to go out and buy (or in the case of bloodworm scrape) decent quantities of top quality bait and so long as the venue you were fishing wasnt too peggy you could normally win your section at least and recoup your cost.

Some of the guys in one of the clubs, who couldnt afford such indulgence, got together and came up with an idea we all bought into which was a bait limit, in both type and quantity. For example you could only bring one pint of maggots, half a pint of pinkies and 1/2 pint of feeders (squats darn sarf), no bloodworm, joker or gozzers (home made maggots!) and you could only use plain brown or white crumb for groundbait and no more than 2kg for example......................

This really levelled the playing field, for the next two years pretty much every member won matches and the distribution was very even

So, it is not necessarilly about ability.............

 

[Graham Elliott]

Yes of course Chris.

The membership paid for the enscriptions and the mini replica trophys (all given to the Guy that runs the teach kids fishing near Heathrow airport - name gone, to hand to the kids)

They also paid for the silver trophys out of club funds etc etc.

By the way, night fishing might be stopped, one guy catches too many fishing at night.........(thats a joke)

 

[Graham Elliott]

Crooky, you said.

So, it is not necessarilly about ability.............

Consistency usually is.

XG

Anyway, put my view, off to the Hants Avon tomorrow trying to catch a big roach.

 

[Eddie Farrell]

if this angler is winning matches , without cheating in any form what so ever, i think the club should reconsider their verdict, and allow back in to their club,
what about bob nudd, winning world crown 3 times was he cheating or even alan scunthrope ??? for that matter, nobody complained when these guys won their crowns ???, and anyway if this angler is winning on different pegs on his club water, which he draws his own peg number out the bag,me think some jealous members ?????? and he has proved himself a better angler,

 

[David Gauntlett]

Graham said....

Sorry can't agree. He may enjoy fishing with his mates in the club!

Why should he change because he is succesful?

Conversely Graham, why should the rest of the club have to change, or 'up their game' as you say....to suit one angler? That would hardly be democratic would it? To say nothing of fair.

It'll be the few who won before who are getting rid of the competition.

How would those 'previous wining few' manage to get the chap thrown out, if the majority didn't agree with doing that? Especially if they were his 'mates', as you suggest.

They are after all.......matches. And I guess the Club rules don't include

"If you win too many matches you will be kicked out of the club!"

But ARE they matches, in the true sense of the word Graham? Or just a small club of like minded lads that fish together and have a few laughs along the way, and weigh in at the end of the day, just for fun?

I guess the answer to those points is....we don't know. We are discussing and tossing this thing back and forth without actually knowing the facts, which is a bit daft when you think about it

I HOPE the club concerned was a democratically run affair, and that it was the great majority of the members who decided that they were happier without this guy, doing things as they always had, and that it was that majority that voted him out. That being so, the right result was achieved.

If not, then as you say, it was a very sad affair indeed....and altogether wrong.

Who knows mate

Cheers, Dave.

 

[Ian Crook]

if this angler is winning matches , without cheating in any form what so ever, i think the club should reconsider their verdict, and allow back in to their club,
what about bob nudd, winning world crown 3 times was he cheating or even alan scunthrope ??? for that matter, nobody complained when these guys won their crowns ???, and anyway if this angler is winning on different pegs on his club water, which he draws his own peg number out the bag,me think some jealous members ?????? and he has proved himself a better angler,

Eddie,

Would it be fair if Bob Nudd turned up at a local club match every week, drew a peg number, paid his pools the same as everyone else and, by some miracle, won most weeks??

Maybe it would be fair but how many people would keep turning up every week and putting their money in?? If this was a match club it would soon be closing it's doors............

 

[Hadley Boyce]

the other anglers can not be that good in my opinion you pick a peg out of a hat sometimes it is a good peg sometimes not so good and in fishing sometimes you need that bit of luck or need to be on the fish....he may just of had a bit of luck that year and it caused a lot of jealousy in the club...sounds like Chelsea with all that player power...

 

[Chris Jones]

Yes of course Chris.

The membership paid for the enscriptions and the mini replica trophys (all given to the Guy that runs the teach kids fishing near Heathrow airport - name gone, to hand to the kids)

They also paid for the silver trophys out of club funds etc etc

So you, as in the winner, didn't take cold hard cash from every other member that entered then? There was no pool to be distributed among the winners.

 

[Ian Crook]

So you, as in the winner, didn't take cold hard cash from every other member that entered then? There was no pool to be distributed among the winners.

Chris, Graham is talking of Annually awarded club trophies, not match trophies, he is no longer a member of the club though, the committee saw to that

 

[Chris Jones]

Would it be fair if Bob Nudd turned up at a local club match every week, drew a peg number, paid his pools the same as everyone else and, by some miracle, won most weeks??

Maybe it would be fair but how many people would keep turning up every week and putting their money in?? If this was a match club it would soon be closing it's doors............

Precisely. Bob Nudd, Alan Scotthorne, Tom Pickering, Steve Ringer and the like generally don't turn up to your average club match to fleece the locals of twenty quid. They've moved up the scale to compete with anglers of a similar standard.
If you are fishing an open and such an angler turns up then it's the nature of the beast and it's living up to the name "open".

 

[Chris Jones]

Chris, Graham is talking of Annually awarded club trophies

I gathered that, but the fact that they (the winners) didn't get cash prizes means it's quite different from a match scenario.
Anyone objecting to getting beaten by a better angler for nothing more than the glory, or a trophy, is pretty small minded. In that scenario it's simply sour grapes. However, I've no problem with someone objecting to be fleeced of money into the bargain. I don't blame them in the slightest for that.

 

[Graham Elliott]

And to think as a result I got you on to the Committee initially Crooky......

And half the others..............

As for handicaps. If I ever went to a match and was told.......by the way, Ivan Marks (bless his soul) is only allowed to start 30 mins after the rest of us...........I would turn around and go home. After all, winning would mean nowt.


Dave, If you still believe its the majority view that has the ear of the Committee...........................................

As I mentioned earlier, he may well have had many mates. Just not those indicated above.

But as you say we don't know.