Is it me? Is it real?

[Alex Gowney]

Sorry Dan that seems again circumstantial evidence, where are the pictures of these dead cats?

Neil, if you were on the Record Fish committee I reckon you'd only accept a new record if you had the fish to weigh yourself! On your own scales

 

[Neil Smart]

Neil, if you were on the Record Fish committee I reckon you'd only accept a new record if you had the fish to weigh yourself! On your own scales

Blimey I wouldn't go so far as that Alex, there pretty thorough that lot

 

[David Gauntlett]

Oh well, back from a wretched holiday, so may as well join in again....even this would be better than the week we just had So, as I said before, I am somewhat more open minded about this than Neil, but only perhaps because like many folk...I quite like the 'Nessie' like romanticism of it all. I quite like to think that maybe, just maybe, there may be yellow eyed ravening monsters running around in deepest Essex Besides, if we could somehow cause these critters to become addicted to eating people wearing fake tan, then one of my Victor Meldrew style issues could be cleared up quite quickly

However, enough of that silliness, down to facts. Neil is suffering very bad press for sticking to his guns on this...but why is that? Look at it this way. If all the so called evidence produced in support of the existence of these beasties were placed before a court of law, what do you imagine would happen?

There are many tales of sightings out there, many people who will swear to seeing one or more of them, many spine chilling tales of terrified dogs, hair standing up on the back of folks necks at some chilling noise...or lack of. There are stories of bodies seen, fur seen and analyzed, carcases of animals torn apart by what could only be a big cat....the list of such things is endless.

The problem with all of that is that it is what in law would be called hearsay. If a court of law asked for one solid piece of ACTUAL evidence, anything at all that constituted irrefutable proof of these critters existence...then it wouldn't be forthcoming would it? Be honest, nothing would be produced. Not one single big cat's body, not one bunch of big cats fur that could be proven did not come from a zoo, not one clear, un-photoshopped photograph, nothing. That being so, the court would have no option but to judge the case as 'unproven'.

Not only that, think about our press. The world's journalists, paparazzi, call them what you will, are like bloodhounds on speed...if the queen farts, these guys will find out in ten minutes. If ANYTHING that would sell newspapers was out there, they would have photographic evidence and presses rolling within hours. There have been fun bit's, slightly tongue in cheek page fillers, especially in local rags who have nothing bar the obituary page to print...but yet again, nothing solid whatsoever. These things will have been followed up by the nationals, but when nothing of substance is discovered, dismissed out of hand. And those guys are thorough! Nessie style blurred pictures that could be anything (and in Nessie's case, they invariably turn out to be floating logs or set up fakes) are published occasionally, on days where nothing newsworthy is happening, but not once has anything irrefutable been found.

So, what do supporters have to say to non believers when confronted with that fact? Well, quite often they start claiming foul play, saying things like "How dare you insinuate that 'Bill Bloggs' et al are liars", and so on, all good blustery stuff Well, I don't think anyone IS claiming that these guys are liars...certainly I am not. There could be any number of reasons why they think they saw what they did...including the possibility that they actually did see a big cat. I like to think they did, because that would be magic, the legend coming to life. However, until there is genuine, irrefutable, on the table proof that these critters exist, then there will be those who will not believe that they do. And I can't really see how you can blame them for holding that view.

There really should be SOMETHING by now, something the ravening paps could get their teeth into, actual proof that would sell millions of papers, win them a scoop, make them rich perhaps, and maybe even get them a Pulitzer prize....but nothing, a big fat zero. Even you entrenched, 100% certain believers must admit that that is ever so slightly puzzling, surely?

Could someone pleeeeeeease capture one? This is doing my head in

Cheers, Dave.

 

[Graham Young]

Oh well, back from a wretched holiday, so may as well join in again....even this would be better than the week we just had So, as I said before, I am somewhat more open minded about this than Neil, but only perhaps because like many folk...I quite like the 'Nessie' like romanticism of it all. I quite like to think that maybe, just maybe, there may be yellow eyed ravening monsters running around in deepest Essex Besides, if we could somehow cause these critters to become addicted to eating people wearing fake tan, then one of my Victor Meldrew style issues could be cleared up quite quickly

However, enough of that silliness, down to facts. Neil is suffering very bad press for sticking to his guns on this...but why is that? Look at it this way. If all the so called evidence produced in support of the existence of these beasties were placed before a court of law, what do you imagine would happen?

There are many tales of sightings out there, many people who will swear to seeing one or more of them, many spine chilling tales of terrified dogs, hair standing up on the back of folks necks at some chilling noise...or lack of. There are stories of bodies seen, fur seen and analyzed, carcases of animals torn apart by what could only be a big cat....the list of such things is endless.

The problem with all of that is that it is what in law would be called hearsay. If a court of law asked for one solid piece of ACTUAL evidence, anything at all that constituted irrefutable proof of these critters existence...then it wouldn't be forthcoming would it? Be honest, nothing would be produced. Not one single big cat's body, not one bunch of big cats fur that could be proven did not come from a zoo, not one clear, un-photoshopped photograph, nothing. That being so, the court would have no option but to judge the case as 'unproven'.

Not only that, think about our press. The world's journalists, paparazzi, call them what you will, are like bloodhounds on speed...if the queen farts, these guys will find out in ten minutes. If ANYTHING that would sell newspapers was out there, they would have photographic evidence and presses rolling within hours. There have been fun bit's, slightly tongue in cheek page fillers, especially in local rags who have nothing bar the obituary page to print...but yet again, nothing solid whatsoever. These things will have been followed up by the nationals, but when nothing of substance is discovered, dismissed out of hand. And those guys are thorough! Nessie style blurred pictures that could be anything (and in Nessie's case, they invariably turn out to be floating logs or set up fakes) are published occasionally, on days where nothing newsworthy is happening, but not once has anything irrefutable been found.

So, what do supporters have to say to non believers when confronted with that fact? Well, quite often they start claiming foul play, saying things like "How dare you insinuate that 'Bill Bloggs' et al are liars", and so on, all good blustery stuff Well, I don't think anyone IS claiming that these guys are liars...certainly I am not. There could be any number of reasons why they think they saw what they did...including the possibility that they actually did see a big cat. I like to think they did, because that would be magic, the legend coming to life. However, until there is genuine, irrefutable, on the table proof that these critters exist, then there will be those who will not believe that they do. And I can't really see how you can blame them for holding that view.

There really should be SOMETHING by now, something the ravening paps could get their teeth into, actual proof that would sell millions of papers, win them a scoop, make them rich perhaps, and maybe even get them a Pulitzer prize....but nothing, a big fat zero. Even you entrenched, 100% certain believers must admit that that is ever so slightly puzzling, surely?

Could someone pleeeeeeease capture one? This is doing my head in

Cheers, Dave.

And there was me believing that eye witnesses were quite important in court

And there's the rub Dave, the "reason" that I thought I saw a big cat is because I did, it was across the road in front of me in one bound around 30 yards in front of me.

Those that know me will tell you I am not prone to bouts of fantasy (well not about this kind of thing anyway ) I will always believe that I saw a big cat but as I was the only one passing down that road at 03.30 in the morning there is no other evidence but I am not out to convince anyone else so that's enough evidence for me, you never know you may be lucky enough to see one yourself one day but don't expect anyone to believe you if you tell what you saw to others.

 

[Joe Winstanley]

Around 16 years ago, I wrote a 10,000 word paper titled 'An Investigation into the reported presence of exotic felines ('big cats') living wild in the British Isles', produced in part-fulfillment of my ecology degree. Essentially it was a review of the available evidence and assessment of the ecological feasibility. If anyone is sad enough to want a copy, send me your address and I'll send you a copy but If I'm honest, after just reading it back now I'm inclined to think I was rather fortunate to receive the mark for it that I did. I had a good time at Uni, and it certainly shows in some parts of this paper..

Anyway, here is my view for what it is worth.

Have alien felines been released into the British Countryside? Yes it would appear so, both intentionally and accidentally. There is written testimony from people claiming to have released big cats into the wild back in the 1970's, and there are numerous, (but unverifiable) reports of smaller species of alien felines such as leopard cats (Prionailurus bengalensis) and jungle cats (Felis chaus) having been shot or killed on the roads.

Could those cats released in the 1970's be still alive today? No.

Could they have bred? Possibly - but there is no evidence to support it.

Is there any verifiable forensic of big cats in the British countryside e.g. DNA from hair and scat samples? No.

Is there any conclusive photographic evidence? No. Although it shouldn't be underestimated just how hard it would be to obtain such evidence, even using high-technology. It takes some of the worlds most highly skilled camera men over a year to record 30 minutes of footage in Africa - even with radio tagged leopards and night vision camera's.

Is there evidence of big cat kills? There is some anecdotal evidence but nothing that has been independently verified by an expert witness.

Could the British Countryside support alien big cats? Is it feasible in ecological terms? It would appear so, there is certainly an abundance of available food e.g. a rabbit population of over 35 million, over 1.5 million deer, 50 million game birds are released annually. There is also a lack of direct competition from other top-level predators and enough suitable habitat and cover in many parts of the UK.

Is eyewitness testimony and anecdotal evidence reliable enough from a scientific perspective? No, although apart from a few hoaxers, I do generally believe most people are very genuine in believing what they have seen.

So what have people seen then? It is interesting that a high proportion of posters on this thread have seen big cats. Thousands of years of human evolution have honed our visual systems for survival, and in evolutionary terms it was only yesterday that we shared a landscape with an array of predators which were only too happy to eat us if we made the mistake of dropping our guard. As such our 'honed for survival' visual systems, may deliberately interpret fleeting, or indiscernible images as potential predators. It may be that this sense is more acute in certain circumstances e.g. in the dark, or in poor light, particularly when out alone in remote rural places.

If we accept that this trait is present in all of us, but that like all human traits, some possess it to a much higher degree than others, then it's not unreasonable to assume that anglers might be amongst those who are more likely to be more in tune with this survival instinct. After all why do we all go fishing? I know for me it satisfies some deep-seated, but undefinable, hunter-gatherer type instinct as well as giving me a connection to a world that nothing else really can.

Anyway, until some forensic evidence is available I'm inclined to believe that the big cats no longer exist, probably 60:40. But I wouldn't rubbish the claims of those who have seen them.

Interesting article here by Monbiot which in part backs up my theory, I'm not sure I agree with the overall premise though.

George Monbiot: http://www.monbiot.com/2013/05/22/the-never-spotted-leopard/

 

[Joe Winstanley]

Oh well, back from a wretched holiday, so may as well join in again....even this would be better than the week we just had So, as I said before, I am somewhat more open minded about this than Neil, but only perhaps because like many folk...I quite like the 'Nessie' like romanticism of it all. I quite like to think that maybe, just maybe, there may be yellow eyed ravening monsters running around in deepest Essex Besides, if we could somehow cause these critters to become addicted to eating people wearing fake tan, then one of my Victor Meldrew style issues could be cleared up quite quickly

However, enough of that silliness, down to facts. Neil is suffering very bad press for sticking to his guns on this...but why is that? Look at it this way. If all the so called evidence produced in support of the existence of these beasties were placed before a court of law, what do you imagine would happen?

There are many tales of sightings out there, many people who will swear to seeing one or more of them, many spine chilling tales of terrified dogs, hair standing up on the back of folks necks at some chilling noise...or lack of. There are stories of bodies seen, fur seen and analyzed, carcases of animals torn apart by what could only be a big cat....the list of such things is endless.

The problem with all of that is that it is what in law would be called hearsay. If a court of law asked for one solid piece of ACTUAL evidence, anything at all that constituted irrefutable proof of these critters existence...then it wouldn't be forthcoming would it? Be honest, nothing would be produced. Not one single big cat's body, not one bunch of big cats fur that could be proven did not come from a zoo, not one clear, un-photoshopped photograph, nothing. That being so, the court would have no option but to judge the case as 'unproven'.

Not only that, think about our press. The world's journalists, paparazzi, call them what you will, are like bloodhounds on speed...if the queen farts, these guys will find out in ten minutes. If ANYTHING that would sell newspapers was out there, they would have photographic evidence and presses rolling within hours. There have been fun bit's, slightly tongue in cheek page fillers, especially in local rags who have nothing bar the obituary page to print...but yet again, nothing solid whatsoever. These things will have been followed up by the nationals, but when nothing of substance is discovered, dismissed out of hand. And those guys are thorough! Nessie style blurred pictures that could be anything (and in Nessie's case, they invariably turn out to be floating logs or set up fakes) are published occasionally, on days where nothing newsworthy is happening, but not once has anything irrefutable been found.

So, what do supporters have to say to non believers when confronted with that fact? Well, quite often they start claiming foul play, saying things like "How dare you insinuate that 'Bill Bloggs' et al are liars", and so on, all good blustery stuff Well, I don't think anyone IS claiming that these guys are liars...certainly I am not. There could be any number of reasons why they think they saw what they did...including the possibility that they actually did see a big cat. I like to think they did, because that would be magic, the legend coming to life. However, until there is genuine, irrefutable, on the table proof that these critters exist, then there will be those who will not believe that they do. And I can't really see how you can blame them for holding that view.

There really should be SOMETHING by now, something the ravening paps could get their teeth into, actual proof that would sell millions of papers, win them a scoop, make them rich perhaps, and maybe even get them a Pulitzer prize....but nothing, a big fat zero. Even you entrenched, 100% certain believers must admit that that is ever so slightly puzzling, surely?

Could someone pleeeeeeease capture one? This is doing my head in

Cheers, Dave.

The hundreds of traps set for big cats in Britain have caught only two large predators. One, in 1980, was a tame puma, which had been released by a man about to be sent to prison. The other was a cryptozoologist called Pete Bailey. Mr Bailey, who had spent 15 years hunting the Beast of Exmoor, entered one of his traps to change the bait and accidentally tripped the mechanism. He was stuck there for two nights, eating the raw meat he had set for the cat, before he was rescued'

 

[Paul Dowgill]

The hundreds of traps set for big cats in Britain have caught only two large predators. One, in 1980, was a tame puma, which had been released by a man about to be sent to prison. The other was a cryptozoologist called Pete Bailey. Mr Bailey, who had spent 15 years hunting the Beast of Exmoor, entered one of his traps to change the bait and accidentally tripped the mechanism. He was stuck there for two nights, eating the raw meat he had set for the cat, before he was rescued'

Joe good post above on the veracity of the evidence - I did not want to get into the psychology aspect. Monbiot's book Feral is a great read and the chapter on big cats I actually found quite funny in parts. His comments about the impact of sheep were very interesting and the desert that is now the Cambrian mountains, very evident if one has watched Hinterland. Given what has been in the news re elephants this week (30% loss in 7 years) it is about time the 'west' did start some re-wilding on a significant yet managed scale or the way we are going there isn't going to be much left in way of big wildlife in the future.

 

[Joe Winstanley]

Spot-on Paul. Feral is one of the most enjoyable books I have read in the last 5 years, and I think the whole concept of rewilding some upland areas is a really sound one, many of our National Parks, the Lake District especially, are very sterile landscapes for wildlife. I see more wildlife surveying intensive farmland than I do in the nearby Peak District National Park. Whilst the fact our own native wildlife is in decline is a disgrace, it is absolutely scandalous that the rate of wildlife decline is higher in our National Parks than elsewhere in the country. Sheep-wrecked as Monbiot calls it!

My point re the big cat article is that I don't believe increased cat sightings are an indicator of an increased appetite or yearning for more rewilding. Wishful thinking on the Moonbats part.

 

[Mark Anderson]

Hi men ,

Britain is full to overflowing with ................. Smart phones ! . My dad is 83 , and he just changed his iPhone for Samsung for a better camera . Now taking that into account , with their powerful camera / video facility there can be no reason for any "sightings" in future to have not even a fair pic to accompany it .


Hatter

 

[Anthony Pearson]

My dad is 83 , and he just changed his iPhone for Samsung

He might get some evidence unless the battery sets on fire!

 

[Alex Gowney]

There's three schools of thought on this. Those who think it's all rubbish, those who totally believe, and those who keep an open mind and don't dismiss what others have seen. I have seen the skin of a very large cat unlike no other colouring that was allegedly shot at Long Compton. I also have a friend and his son who saw one leap the road in one bound and sit by the ditch watching them. Our eyes do play tricks, but to two people simultaneously? In main beam headlights? And crouching, not running? Perhaps it was a badger or maybe a skunk ... Maybe I didn't really see a 6 foot long skin of a large cat, perhaps it was just a rug, or maybe a pantomime horse.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but it is a bit patronising to suggest people don't really know what they have seen. Dave's post about evidence standing up in a court of law is largely irrelevant as no court is going to waste it's resources trying to get a definitive answer on this. Also, references to the Loch Ness monster are ridiculous, those stories are based on creatures almost certainly extinct for millions of years. Big cats are very much reality in this world, their presence/absence wild in the UK is the only debate. And I certainly think there is ample evidence of sightings to suggest some are out there. Joe's thesis does miss one or two points about physical evidence, notably the police inspector in the Lake District who investigated a sheep kill and sent some fur and droppings to a lab for identification. They were confirmed as coming from a Puma, I think it was.

But maybe the scientist just thought that was what he was looking at and in reality it was sheep droppings and wool

 

[David Gauntlett]

And there was me believing that eye witnesses were quite important in court

And there's the rub Dave, the "reason" that I thought I saw a big cat is because I did, it was across the road in front of me in one bound around 30 yards in front of me.

Those that know me will tell you I am not prone to bouts of fantasy (well not about this kind of thing anyway ) I will always believe that I saw a big cat but as I was the only one passing down that road at 03.30 in the morning there is no other evidence but I am not out to convince anyone else so that's enough evidence for me, you never know you may be lucky enough to see one yourself one day but don't expect anyone to believe you if you tell what you saw to others.

Damn you Graham, you get me every time

Seriously though Graham, you know me, I have a dreadful sense of humour, I truly can't help pulling people's leg. I don't mean to wind folk up, none of it is malicious, but I see humour in almost any situation...which at times, inevitably perhaps, does get taken too seriously.

The fact is, there has never been any doubt that big critters have entered our countryside on regular occasions. There are zoos, menageries, even sad individuals who see big cat's etc. as status symbols, all over the UK...so of course some of these critters are going to escape/be deliberately released into our environment...crap happens! It's not just cats, there have been crocks, alligators, giant snakes, wolves, you name it...but importantly, most of them are not around now. For various reasons, they did not survive. Inevitably then, there will be sightings....because at least for a short period, those critters WERE there. BUT...I still firmly believe that most of the claimed sightings are NOT genuine, for all the reasons previously stated.

So, to my real issue in all this...do we really believe that these huge cat's can survive and live amongst us for long periods, as is claimed? For starters, would there not have been at least a few human fatalities by now? It happens where they originate! Big cats do not like being disturbed on a kill, or when they have cubs, and apparently sometimes they kill just because they are huge, monstrously powerful animals with a mean streak in them If these critters abound in our countryside as claimed, would we not be horribly aware of that by now? For that, and many other reasons, I for one have serious problems in taking seriously the idea that these critters survive for long periods and even breed in the UK. Do you see now where I am coming from Graham?

Cheers, Dave.

EDIT.

I went out halfway through typing the above reply, and only returned half an hour or so back. I then continued my reply, posted it, and only then discovered that there have been many replies in my absence, by folk who did a far better job of it than I ever could, even if some of the points differ from my viewpoint. So, it all sounds a bit silly now. Never mind, most of my stuff does anyway

 

[Alex Gowney]

Not sure we have to assume there would be human fatalities Dave. Reading the books of Jim Corbett on his hunt for man-eating tigers and leopards in India, virtually all the ones he shot had a visible reason for turning man-eater in the form of an injury, usually porcupine quills, or very old age. The reasons for this are obvious, the cats can't catch the quicker natural prey so eat the slow moving humans instead. With all the food available in this country that's not going to be a problem. A sheep is just as easy to catch as a person. The exception was where one man-eater had survived long enough to rear cubs and they had grown into adulthood with human flesh being their natural diet. He also recounts a rather grisly account of where the dead bodies of humans were not buried and a leopard had tapped into this supply of free food and taken to eating live people as well! They are fascinating books and give a good insight into why leopards are so hard to track down, more so than tigers.

I understand the scepticism of many on this subject but do not feel justified in dismissing what so many others have seen as mere fantasy, tricks of the light or mistakes. Many of the reasons put forward as to why they could not survive undetected I would also dispute, particularly a question of food supply. That would be like suggesting if a burglar broke into Tescos and got trapped, he would die of starvation! So although I don't think the countryside "abounds" with big cats, I have no doubt some are out there living totally wild and undetected by all bar the odd sighting.

 

[Neil Smart]

So although I don't think the countryside "abounds" with big cats, I have no doubt some are out there living totally wild and undetected by all bar the odd sighting.

I have a huge problem with this statement Alex, how on Earth could such a creature live on these Isles 'totally wild' and 'undetected'?

By that you are saying that any supposed big cats would be thriving!!

Sorry but pure fantasy, or rather Daily Mail fodder for the masses.

 

[Anthony Pearson]

Now come on folks we're all missing the obvious here. Unbeknownst to us, somebody out there has been breeding these 'big cats' and releasing them into the wild on a regular basis over the last thirty years. This overcomes some of the problems foreseen by Neil, but would account for the survival of such animals over a long period.

This is based on 'spoon theory' (don't bother looking it up, as you'll only find the medical one...and it ain't that) the basic premise of which, is that if something can happen, eventually it will.

 

[Joe Winstanley]

There's three schools of thought on this. Those who think it's all rubbish, those who totally believe, and those who keep an open mind and don't dismiss what others have seen. I have seen the skin of a very large cat unlike no other colouring that was allegedly shot at Long Compton. I also have a friend and his son who saw one leap the road in one bound and sit by the ditch watching them. Our eyes do play tricks, but to two people simultaneously? In main beam headlights? And crouching, not running? Perhaps it was a badger or maybe a skunk ... Maybe I didn't really see a 6 foot long skin of a large cat, perhaps it was just a rug, or maybe a pantomime horse.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but it is a bit patronising to suggest people don't really know what they have seen. Dave's post about evidence standing up in a court of law is largely irrelevant as no court is going to waste it's resources trying to get a definitive answer on this. Also, references to the Loch Ness monster are ridiculous, those stories are based on creatures almost certainly extinct for millions of years. Big cats are very much reality in this world, their presence/absence wild in the UK is the only debate. And I certainly think there is ample evidence of sightings to suggest some are out there. Joe's thesis does miss one or two points about physical evidence, notably the police inspector in the Lake District who investigated a sheep kill and sent some fur and droppings to a lab for identification. They were confirmed as coming from a Puma, I think it was.

But maybe the scientist just thought that was what he was looking at and in reality it was sheep droppings and wool

Really? When was this? And what is the source? I would love that to be true. I came across a lot of claims like that this but when traced back to the source they didn't stand up.

When did your mate harvest his rug?

 

[Graham Young]

Damn you Graham, you get me every time

Seriously though Graham, you know me, I have a dreadful sense of humour, I truly can't help pulling people's leg. I don't mean to wind folk up, none of it is malicious, but I see humour in almost any situation...which at times, inevitably perhaps, does get taken too seriously.

The fact is, there has never been any doubt that big critters have entered our countryside on regular occasions. There are zoos, menageries, even sad individuals who see big cat's etc. as status symbols, all over the UK...so of course some of these critters are going to escape/be deliberately released into our environment...crap happens! It's not just cats, there have been crocks, alligators, giant snakes, wolves, you name it...but importantly, most of them are not around now. For various reasons, they did not survive. Inevitably then, there will be sightings....because at least for a short period, those critters WERE there. BUT...I still firmly believe that most of the claimed sightings are NOT genuine, for all the reasons previously stated.

So, to my real issue in all this...do we really believe that these huge cat's can survive and live amongst us for long periods, as is claimed? For starters, would there not have been at least a few human fatalities by now? It happens where they originate! Big cats do not like being disturbed on a kill, or when they have cubs, and apparently sometimes they kill just because they are huge, monstrously powerful animals with a mean streak in them If these critters abound in our countryside as claimed, would we not be horribly aware of that by now? For that, and many other reasons, I for one have serious problems in taking seriously the idea that these critters survive for long periods and even breed in the UK. Do you see now where I am coming from Graham?

Cheers, Dave.

EDIT.

I went out halfway through typing the above reply, and only returned half an hour or so back. I then continued my reply, posted it, and only then discovered that there have been many replies in my absence, by folk who did a far better job of it than I ever could, even if some of the points differ from my viewpoint. So, it all sounds a bit silly now. Never mind, most of my stuff does anyway

The thought that the creature that I saw that morning was recently released had never entered my rather thick head Dave, its perfectly possible that it was the case but I suppose that we will never know, one things for sure I never saw it again. There are also those that "jump on the bandwagon" claiming to have seen this that and the other when in fact they haven't, all they do is bring the genuine sightings and reports into question although why others would do this baffles me.

I think its possible for these creatures to survive without being seen very often but whether there are enough of them to find each other and breed is another thing, from what I have seen on wildlife programmes they are solitary things that spend a long time looking for a mate and that's where the population is indigenous.

I can think of a few humans? that I wouldn't mind reading of how they had come to an unfortunate end at the paws of one of these cats.

I look forward to your posts and like your sense of humour, without humour, controversy and the odd total disagreement forums would be very dull places indeed.

 

[David Gauntlett]

There's three schools of thought on this. Those who think it's all rubbish, those who totally believe, and those who keep an open mind and don't dismiss what others have seen. I have seen the skin of a very large cat unlike no other colouring that was allegedly shot at Long Compton. I also have a friend and his son who saw one leap the road in one bound and sit by the ditch watching them. Our eyes do play tricks, but to two people simultaneously? In main beam headlights? And crouching, not running? Perhaps it was a badger or maybe a skunk ... Maybe I didn't really see a 6 foot long skin of a large cat, perhaps it was just a rug, or maybe a pantomime horse.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but it is a bit patronising to suggest people don't really know what they have seen. Dave's post about evidence standing up in a court of law is largely irrelevant as no court is going to waste it's resources trying to get a definitive answer on this. Also, references to the Loch Ness monster are ridiculous, those stories are based on creatures almost certainly extinct for millions of years. Big cats are very much reality in this world, their presence/absence wild in the UK is the only debate. And I certainly think there is ample evidence of sightings to suggest some are out there. Joe's thesis does miss one or two points about physical evidence, notably the police inspector in the Lake District who investigated a sheep kill and sent some fur and droppings to a lab for identification. They were confirmed as coming from a Puma, I think it was.

But maybe the scientist just thought that was what he was looking at and in reality it was sheep droppings and wool

You may well be right Alex, it is something none of us can easily prove, one way or the other. As you said previously, there are several schools of thought on this. I belong to the 'Not sure, but I doubt it' school, where long term survivors are concerned, and the 'of course it's true, it's a proven fact' school where at least short term escapees are concerned. Hence, I do not doubt that some of the sightings are genuine too...the one follows the other.

Ok, on to books. I too have read at least one of Jim Corbett's offerings, although it was many years ago. The most memorable passage in the book I read was where he was spending the night in a tiny hide up a tree, with a staked out goat in front of him to attract the man killer into a position where he could shoot it. The villagers had roped long, cut lengths of a particularly vicious type of thorny liana around the trunk of his tree once he was in position, to stop the cat from climbing up to him. During the black of night, the tops of the thorn barrier behind him started to Jerk...the cat had crept, unheard, to the base of his tree and was trying to dislodge the barrier to get to him! Worse still, the platform was so tiny he could not turn to get a shot at the thing, so had to sit helpless to await events. Scary stuff

Cheers, Dave.

 

[Neil Smart]

The thought that the creature that I saw that morning was recently released had never entered my rather thick head Dave, its perfectly possible that it was the case but I suppose that we will never know, one things for sure I never saw it again. There are also those that "jump on the bandwagon" claiming to have seen this that and the other when in fact they haven't, all they do is bring the genuine sightings and reports into question although why others would do this baffles me.

I think its possible for these creatures to survive without being seen very often but whether there are enough of them to find each other and breed is another thing, from what I have seen on wildlife programmes they are solitary things that spend a long time looking for a mate and that's where the population is indigenous.

I can think of a few humans? that I wouldn't mind reading of how they had come to an unfortunate end at the paws of one of these cats.

I look forward to your posts and like your sense of humour, without humour, controversy and the odd total disagreement forums would be very dull places indeed.

Personally do not think that a creature of that size could survive for any length of time without being spotted, and you say that to find another mate to breed would is another thing!!! Of course it is 'another thing' you cannot just hope that these things exist, beyond just a brief period of freedom, if that is the case, and then to actually find a mate, breed, and rear cubs, total fantasy.
You then in your soh way wouldn't mind some humans falling prey to the cats!
Good Lord!

 

[Neil Smart]

Now come on folks we're all missing the obvious here. Unbeknownst to us, somebody out there has been breeding these 'big cats' and releasing them into the wild on a regular basis over the last thirty years. This overcomes some of the problems foreseen by Neil, but would account for the survival of such animals over a long period.

This is based on 'spoon theory' (don't bother looking it up, as you'll only find the medical one...and it ain't that) the basic premise of which, is that if something can happen, eventually it will.

Your a very bad man, we are of an age that the kids need to listen to