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Is it me? Is it real?

Paul, as soon as I saw that the piece linked was from " The Guardian" it lost my interest, Monbiot ha no credibility at the best of times.

But lets not let politics get in the way of a thread :0)

Dave
 
Dave there are many think he talks a lot of sense especially when it comes to upland reafforestation to stop flooding for example - something the National Trust is now considering in Borrowdale in the Lake District it seems and which many anglers would buy into. So let's not let views of a specific newspaper or an individual author (Monbiot did do zoology at Oxford so is not a crackpot) as you say get in the way but consider all points of view. These are also interesting http://www.bigcatmonitors.co.uk/index.htm and http://www.bigcatsgb.co.uk/ but not a photo in sight...
 
Really? When was this? And what is the source? I would love that to be true. I came across a lot of claims like that this but when traced back to the source they didn't stand up.

When did your mate harvest his rug?

The source is on the internet Joe, look it up under big cats. You can try and trace the source back if you like, I'm not sure when the incident happened so go have a look. My mate didn't "harvest" the rug, it was given to him. He has had it a good few years though, I'll try and get more info on it.
 
You may well be right Alex, it is something none of us can easily prove, one way or the other. As you said previously, there are several schools of thought on this. I belong to the 'Not sure, but I doubt it' school, where long term survivors are concerned, and the 'of course it's true, it's a proven fact' school where at least short term escapees are concerned. Hence, I do not doubt that some of the sightings are genuine too...the one follows the other.

Ok, on to books. I too have read at least one of Jim Corbett's offerings, although it was many years ago. The most memorable passage in the book I read was where he was spending the night in a tiny hide up a tree, with a staked out goat in front of him to attract the man killer into a position where he could shoot it. The villagers had roped long, cut lengths of a particularly vicious type of thorny liana around the trunk of his tree once he was in position, to stop the cat from climbing up to him. During the black of night, the tops of the thorn barrier behind him started to Jerk...the cat had crept, unheard, to the base of his tree and was trying to dislodge the barrier to get to him! Worse still, the platform was so tiny he could not turn to get a shot at the thing, so had to sit helpless to await events. Scary stuff

Cheers, Dave.

Very scary Dave and Jim Corbett was one hell of a brave man. It also shows the great intelligence of these creatures and is one reason why I, unlike Neil, have no problem accepting that they could live undetected in this country. Or are they undetected? I suppose they will remain undetected if your stance is that every sighting is mistaken identity or pure BS :)
 
Really? When was this? And what is the source? I would love that to be true. I came across a lot of claims like that this but when traced back to the source they didn't stand up.

When did your mate harvest his rug?

Joe, go to page 5 of this thread and my post of 04/08/16 and the link to this report is there. It is from the Mail Online, which of course, in some peoples views renders it as instantly unreliable. I don't know how reliable it is but it is a report and I guess if you're really keen enough you can trace it back as far as you like. The Police Inspectors name's there, why not get in touch and ask him?
 
Joe, go to page 5 of this thread and my post of 04/08/16 and the link to this report is there. It is from the Mail Online, which of course, in some peoples views renders it as instantly unreliable. I don't know how reliable it is but it is a report and I guess if you're really keen enough you can trace it back as far as you like. The Police Inspectors name's there, why not get in touch and ask him?

Quite honestly that is the biggest load of Bull I have ever read, I have lived near the wilds of the Stroud Valley, and it is a hardly a suitable environment for any such creatures with the proximity of houses Industrial Estates and a very busy main Road.

And the rest of the piece is surely a wind up, all second hand 'evidence' road kills that get removed in a special ops way....and yet we still await a carcass. A picture, or indeed a capture, and why? Because it is a load of rubbish Alex, that's why :rolleyes:

I conceded that there have been escapee's that is more than likely, but this story alludes to breeding colonies. Utter Nonsense.
 
Joe, go to page 5 of this thread and my post of 04/08/16 and the link to this report is there. It is from the Mail Online, which of course, in some peoples views renders it as instantly unreliable. I don't know how reliable it is but it is a report and I guess if you're really keen enough you can trace it back as far as you like. The Police Inspectors name's there, why not get in touch and ask him?

Thanks Alex.

Eddie Bell has retired from what I can ascertain, but I do recall he was very known in 'big cat' circles, and was convinced that alien big cats were in living in the British countryside, and spent well over 25 years trying to find evidence to prove their existence. I believe he once declared there were around 20 alien big cats at large in the Durham area alone..

My understanding is the 'droppings' referred to in your article were inspected by Dr Hans Kruuk in 1995, and as your article states, 'confirmed they were from a puma or leopard'. So clearly no DNA analysis was undertaken, although there is little doubt of Dr Hans Kruuk's expertise in this field, he is a widely respected mammalian ecologist. I don't recall any mention of this back in 1999-2000, I can't find any comments attributable to Dr Hans Kruuk.

However in an interview in the Scotsman in February 1998 he had the following to say:

Dr Hans Kruuk, an ecology consultant and authority on large cat species, said there is simply no evidence to support the existence of any of these creatures on the loose - despite an almost constant stream of reported sightings.

His remarks met with a cool response, particularly from the Fife Constabulary where officers continue to deal with claims that a large black cat is living off livestock in the area, the so-called Big Cat of Cupar. Officers are convinced the animal really does exist.

Dr Kruuk, who co-founded the Serengeti Research Institute in Tanzania and studied the large cats there for several years, was speaking at the fourth Scottish Police Wildlife Liaison Officers' Conference at the Scottish Police College in Tulliallan.

"It is like Nessie. You shouldn't dismiss it altogether but I am afraid there simply is not sufficient evidence to support any of these claims," he said.

"I have worked at night and it is very easy to overestimate the size of animals. The Scottish wildcat itself in bad light can be thought to be much bigger than it actually is."

'Dr Kruuk, formally with the Institute of Terrestrial Ecology, has been called out by police and landowners to investigate around ten reported sightings in the north-east of Scotland.

"I am pleased that the police forces take this matter seriously because these animals, if they are in Scotland, would originally have been captive and will be less frightened of people. A large cat on the prowl can be very dangerous."

Dr Kruuk does not doubt people genuinely believe they have seen a large cat but thinks there is also a great deal of "wishful thinking" on the part of those who want to believe there is more danger in our environment.'


And in an interview with the Press and Journal in March 2002:

'Dr Hans Kruuk spent years studying big cats in their native habitats in Africa and North America and took a particular interest in Scottish sightings while working for the Centre for Ecology and Hydrology at Banchory.

"I'm always conscious of how easy it is to make mistakes," he told the Press and Journal. "Very often I'd think I'd seen one kind of animal and, on closer inspection, I'd realise it was another.

"If it can happen to me, I'm fairly sure it can happen to people who don't have so much experience or knowledge.


"I'm sceptical," he acknowledged. "But I'm keeping an open mind. We seem to have a great many sightings but little evidence in the form of tracks, remains and carcases. You come across these things when you're looking for big cats in Africa and North America and I'd expect people to be coming across these things in the countryside here."'

Odd that he didn't mention having identified puma/leopard droppings collected at the scene of a kill, maybe he doubts regarding the veracity? Who knows?

http://scotcats.online.fr/abc/why/catsof99tales.html
http://scotcats.online.fr/abc/sightings/scotland/nightstalkers12.html
 
On researching, the author of the piece, in my view, is sympathetic to the idea and perhaps over-relies on Rick Minter who is a believer so presents the piece in a certain light, which of course is his right...but has no real evidence other than the eyewitnesses, which brings us back to the nub of this thread. Re the Doward and Forest of Dean i live near both and know a few locals who hunt around here and they are aware of the tales but that is all they see them as, unless of course they are not willing to tell an incomer :D
 
Guys, I think you're all arguing about different things.

Clearly, there is *something* out there that many eye-witnesses have seen over the years. But, that's not the same as irrefutable evidence that these beasts can survive/thrive in a wild environment.

It is reasonable to claim "there simply is not sufficient evidence to support any of these claims" without saying the the people who saw "things" are wrong.

R.
 
Guys, I think you're all arguing about different things.

Clearly, there is *something* out there that many eye-witnesses have seen over the years. But, that's not the same as irrefutable evidence that these beasts can survive/thrive in a wild environment.

It is reasonable to claim "there simply is not sufficient evidence to support any of these claims" without saying the the people who saw "things" are wrong.

R.

That's a very good post Robin and probably the least biased in any sense. And the most relevant.
 
Thanks Alex.

Eddie Bell has retired from what I can ascertain, but I do recall he was very known in 'big cat' circles, and was convinced that alien big cats were in living in the British countryside, and spent well over 25 years trying to find evidence to prove their existence. I believe he once declared there were around 20 alien big cats at large in the Durham area alone..

My understanding is the 'droppings' referred to in your article were inspected by Dr Hans Kruuk in 1995, and as your article states, 'confirmed they were from a puma or leopard'. So clearly no DNA analysis was undertaken, although there is little doubt of Dr Hans Kruuk's expertise in this field, he is a widely respected mammalian ecologist. I don't recall any mention of this back in 1999-2000, I can't find any comments attributable to Dr Hans Kruuk.

However in an interview in the Scotsman in February 1998 he had the following to say:

Dr Hans Kruuk, an ecology consultant and authority on large cat species, said there is simply no evidence to support the existence of any of these creatures on the loose - despite an almost constant stream of reported sightings.

His remarks met with a cool response, particularly from the Fife Constabulary where officers continue to deal with claims that a large black cat is living off livestock in the area, the so-called Big Cat of Cupar. Officers are convinced the animal really does exist.

Dr Kruuk, who co-founded the Serengeti Research Institute in Tanzania and studied the large cats there for several years, was speaking at the fourth Scottish Police Wildlife Liaison Officers' Conference at the Scottish Police College in Tulliallan.

"It is like Nessie. You shouldn't dismiss it altogether but I am afraid there simply is not sufficient evidence to support any of these claims," he said.

"I have worked at night and it is very easy to overestimate the size of animals. The Scottish wildcat itself in bad light can be thought to be much bigger than it actually is."

'Dr Kruuk, formally with the Institute of Terrestrial Ecology, has been called out by police and landowners to investigate around ten reported sightings in the north-east of Scotland.

"I am pleased that the police forces take this matter seriously because these animals, if they are in Scotland, would originally have been captive and will be less frightened of people. A large cat on the prowl can be very dangerous."

Dr Kruuk does not doubt people genuinely believe they have seen a large cat but thinks there is also a great deal of "wishful thinking" on the part of those who want to believe there is more danger in our environment.'


And in an interview with the Press and Journal in March 2002:

'Dr Hans Kruuk spent years studying big cats in their native habitats in Africa and North America and took a particular interest in Scottish sightings while working for the Centre for Ecology and Hydrology at Banchory.

"I'm always conscious of how easy it is to make mistakes," he told the Press and Journal. "Very often I'd think I'd seen one kind of animal and, on closer inspection, I'd realise it was another.

"If it can happen to me, I'm fairly sure it can happen to people who don't have so much experience or knowledge.


"I'm sceptical," he acknowledged. "But I'm keeping an open mind. We seem to have a great many sightings but little evidence in the form of tracks, remains and carcases. You come across these things when you're looking for big cats in Africa and North America and I'd expect people to be coming across these things in the countryside here."'

Odd that he didn't mention having identified puma/leopard droppings collected at the scene of a kill, maybe he doubts regarding the veracity? Who knows?

http://scotcats.online.fr/abc/why/catsof99tales.html
http://scotcats.online.fr/abc/sightings/scotland/nightstalkers12.html

Good post Joe and some good research! I have to say I do question the oft repeated "wishful thinking" though! As someone who regularly fishes alone at night in the middle of nowhere I would like nothing better than to have 100% proof that there is nothing more dangerous in our countryside than an easily spotted and avoided Freisian bull! Although I am perfectly at ease at night and don't get the jitters, the thought of being in close proximity to a panther is one thing to make me take my eyes off the beta light!
 
Quite honestly that is the biggest load of Bull I have ever read, I have lived near the wilds of the Stroud Valley, and it is a hardly a suitable environment for any such creatures with the proximity of houses Industrial Estates and a very busy main Road.

And the rest of the piece is surely a wind up, all second hand 'evidence' road kills that get removed in a special ops way....and yet we still await a carcass. A picture, or indeed a capture, and why? Because it is a load of rubbish Alex, that's why :rolleyes:

I conceded that there have been escapee's that is more than likely, but this story alludes to breeding colonies. Utter Nonsense.

I knew you'd like that article Neil :)
 
Good post Joe and some good research! I have to say I do question the oft repeated "wishful thinking" though! As someone who regularly fishes alone at night in the middle of nowhere I would like nothing better than to have 100% proof that there is nothing more dangerous in our countryside than an easily spotted and avoided Freisian bull! Although I am perfectly at ease at night and don't get the jitters, the thought of being in close proximity to a panther is one thing to make me take my eyes off the beta light!

Yeah I did wonder about the 'wishful thinking' line, I can't think of many people that would wish to have a 'big cat' prowling around them! Although I'd probably share a field with a panther than a Fresian Bull - they are nasty bast@rd's, I learnt that during my time as a farm worker :eek:
 
Having been brought up on a farm I agree 100%! If I had no choice but to share a field with a Freisian bull or a panther, the panther wins every time. From what I can gather big cats very seldom attack humans while I know for sure that Freisian bulls, given the opportunity, frequently attack people!
 
Wolves. Thats the next big problem.

Having been nearly killed by a charging herd of cattle....just a warning, don't switch your 2 red spots on your head torch on when walking through a field of cows.

Luckily I escaped with just lots of thorns sticking out of me as I made my dive over the fence into thick brambles.

I think the cattle thought predator eyes.
 
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