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Flooding and drought?

Jon Whelan said:
I am a little surprised by a lot of what has been written here. The cost of treating water for potable purposes and the treatment of waste water is not cheap. Yes, the companies make profits but additionally some (most) are many 10s of £billions in debt to due to investment. Price is capped by OFWAT and poor performance incurs substantial fines. I could go on & on.

Very basic concept to grasp - until the ground waters have been substantially recharged then restrictions will remain in place.

You could try and wonder why I say this so explicitly - I have worked with the EA for nearly 10 years & now work at a reasonable level with a water company. But then again, I could be part of this conspiracy :confused:

Nice one for introducing some sanity here such as the comments made by Pete Marshall, Justin Hicks, Chris Guy and David Hall.

Not looking to wind anyone up here.

Cheers, Jon
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Jon, you may well be right mate. You certainly have closer access to the 'inner workings' of these bodies we are discussing than I have, that's for sure. My arguments are based solely on things I see, hear and read....and I would be the first to admit, that is not always 100% accurate :p Having said that Jon, it sounds from your post that your income is at least partly dependant on either....or possibly both...the EA and the water companies. If so, that may well skew your views on this a little...possibly?

Whatever, I do have a couple of questions regarding the points you make in your post Jon, and this is NOT sarcasm, these are genuine questions and I would love some answer. Perhaps with your contacts, you can put my mind at rest here. If it IS true that these water companies have "10s of £billions of debts" as you say.....then why on earth are they allowed to continue to pay out huge dividends to their shareholders, and incredible wages and bonuses to their executives, year on year? Why are they not using at least the majority of that money to pay off those debts? Come to that, is it even possible to have record profits and huge debts at the same time? That sounds utterly nuts to me!

One other point. If these companies are that badly off....why are foreign investors literally clamouring to buy a piece of the action Jon? One of the smaller water companies is entirely owned by an oriental billionaire, all be it through a fronting company he owns. These guys do not become billionaires by making unwise investments, I do know that much for a fact! I am also fairly sure they are not buying into it to help you or I Jon?

Apologies to all if this has rumbled on to a boring extent, I do tend to go on a bit on issues I feel passionately about. Sorry guys :eek:

Cheers, Dave.
 
I think they are excellent and relevant questions David and good on you!
Personally, i think the whole thing is a huge Con... but only time will tell! ;)
 
As far as I am aware Thames Water has exchange hands a few times in recent years. Given that history I would suggest, certainly with Thames, it's not the safe bet you might think it is.
 
Its good to have some "water" people here with experience of the Industry.

I just wonder, very simplicticly, why, seeing the Thames high, wide and handsome yesterday, we can't have tunnels, opened up when the rivers are high, diverting some of the water into reservoirs, rather than into the Sea?

I appreciate it may need power pumping in some situations.

Graham (sitting at home, can't do my Lawn work, earn money, because the ground is sodden through and more rain to come)
 
Graham Elliott said:
Its good to have some "water" people here with experience of the Industry.

I just wonder, very simplicticly, why, seeing the Thames high, wide and handsome yesterday, we can't have tunnels, opened up when the rivers are high, diverting some of the water into reservoirs, rather than into the Sea?

I appreciate it may need power pumping in some situations.

Graham (sitting at home, can't do my Lawn work, earn money, because the ground is sodden through and more rain to come)
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April showers bring may flowers and drought....:D:D
 
Dave G, fair comment on all you have said. I see your points and should have qualified my points further.I will respond hopefully in due course.

I have a mother in laws birthday to go to. Lucky me.

Cheers, Jon
 
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Graham Elliott said:
I just wonder, very simplicticly, why, seeing the Thames high, wide and handsome yesterday, we can't have tunnels, opened up when the rivers are high, diverting some of the water into reservoirs, rather than into the Sea?

I appreciate it may need power pumping in some situations.
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I have exactly the same considerations when sitting on the tidal trent seeing all that water go out to sea. Certainly a combination of further abstraction (mid tidal points), pumping & storage buffering our need to abstract from ground waters hence keeping water tables higher to allow rivers & streams to be in more steady state/flow during protracted dry periods.

Longer or even mid term investment by the government & then this water can be sold to the water companies as when needed. Submerge the odd village too!!
 
Have fished the thames near Farmoor Reservoir,and having seen the inlet im sure
the reservoir is fed from the river.
Theve got it right in my neck of the woods,as grafham water is fed from the Great ouse (near Buckden) and also have a feeling the lea valley ones are fed from the Lea,so think no need to panic...............................................Tho i am at the mo,
as my water butt is overflowing,and my favourite metal detecting fields are to
sodden to go on,and there is gold in them thier fields.
 
Graham,fuchsias are fine,and the flowering cherries,and other shrubs ive recently
planted are loving this rain:D,but need the fields to dry out,as instead of chasing
pond pigs,im now chasing these....far more rewarding.
Gold-vert.jpg
 
Dave, at a glance re debt pls see:-

Thames water:- Company profile

Anglian water:- Company profile

On reading further I have to acknowledge that I was wrong having seen performance from other view points. It is the case that dividend payments are not proportionate to performance and that debt accrued can in isolation be attributable to the untenable dividends paid. As has been outlined, more than on the face of this in isolation it is a con. Given historic incomes there is little room for profits given operational/capital expenditure. One could imply that dividends paid out is akin to asset stripping and as Ray outlined, only time will reveal the damage done by present and last decades unsustainable payouts.

After such a untenable point on my part - I still stand on that ground waters will have to be recharged until the restrictions are lifted. Not much for my pride to hang onto :eek:

Thanks for pushing the points made & I'll humbly quieten!

Cheers, Jon
 
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Amongst a few reads, a good paper which humbly corrected my stance was

http://www.cass.city.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/86449/6-Water-paper-Apr-11.pdf

The first page summary states the case well:-

"High levels of investment in relation to cash flows, combined with high dividend payouts, have caused UK water companies persistently to borrow to meet their cash outflows. This behaviour is not adequately explained by mainstream theories of dividends. The intensive regulatory environment has meant that agency costs and information asymmetry are low, and there was no clear tax motive for the companies’ regular dividends. It is argued that the large regular dividends are explained primarily by a demand for dividends on the part of investors, and that there are institutional or behavioural reasons for the demand."
 
Jon. You deserve to be congratulated for the honesty of your last 2 posts.

And for having avoided the MIL's party.

Graham
 
Thanks for that info John, very interesting indeed. As you say, time will tell where this madness will all end up. I will try complaining in the appropriate places....though I suspect it will be like water off a ducks back (sorry, that is terrible :p)

Anyway, may I add my vote to Graham's plaudits Jon? You are indeed an honest and honourable man....nuff said :)

Cheers, Dave.
 
Am I right in thinking that the discovery of some water companies poor business models are enough to justify this conspiracy theory against them?

Damian
 
Sorry if I sound like a sceptic , Are some people really suggesting that water companys are conspiring to create a water shortage in this country so they can charge more and increase their profits .
 
I dont think they were Joe.

What they are basically saying is that; once everybody has a water meter fitted and in theory uses less water, in order to maintain profits, water companies will increase the price of water and therefore we will end up out of pocket.

Cynical maybe but not a conspiracy.:D
 
Joe Fletcher said:
Sorry if I sound like a sceptic , Are some people really suggesting that water companys are conspiring to create a water shortage in this country so they can charge more and increase their profits .
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No, but if you honestly believe that the marketing dept of a modern private enterprise will not employ 'imaginative' strategies in order to maximise profits then you need your head felt. In other words, the water shortage will be used to their maximum advantage, in my opinion. It shouldn't be private, it is an essential utility.
cheers
 
water metres Great

5 years ago was paying £380 per annum for my water....unmetered.

Moved house,and metre fitted,my last years bill was £240.

The sooner we all have metres fitted the better,as why the hell should a family of
8 who sqaunder water pay the same as me and the missus who use it sparingly.

River levels in the Great Ouse through Buckinghamshire rose during the rainfall on Friday and have begun to rise again due to heavy rainfall on Saturday (27th April) and Sunday (28th April). River levels are expected to rise further as they respond to the continued accumulations of rain. At this point only low-lying land and roads near to the river are likely to be affected, but we will monitor the situation closely and issue further Flood Alerts and Flood Warnings if the situation changes.

06:41 on 29 Apr 2012

Grafham water should be on the way up
 
Howard Hutchins said:
5 years ago was paying £380 per annum for my water....unmetered.

Moved house,and metre fitted,my last years bill was £240.

The sooner we all have metres fitted the better,as why the hell should a family of
8 who sqaunder water pay the same as me and the missus who use it sparingly.


Grafham water should be on the way up
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Why should a family of eight use more water than a couple? Not sure Howard - it's baffling isn't it.
 
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