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Fish killer - a surprising culprit, you say?

Graham Young said:
Wrong, plenty of cases where wildlife destroys, how about Beavers destroying tree's how about a big cat destroying cubs that are not there own, how about elephant destroying trees that they feed on, how about huge jellyfish destroying the habitat of fish off the coast of Japan, there are more if you require them. ;)
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Nope the penny still haven't dropped has it?
Cats kill other cats nature
Elephants eat trees Beavers destroy trees.
Jelly fish ... well whatever.
But you should reassure yourself that all these events, and others you might put up our all part of the natural process of ensuring survival of species, and ensuring a strong genetic pool.
Like I say man destroys, you really need to think out of the box , don't put human values on wild creatures and behaviour.
 
Neil Smart said:
Nope the penny still haven't dropped has it?
Cats kill other cats nature
Elephants eat trees Beavers destroy trees.
Jelly fish ... well whatever.
But you should reassure yourself that all these events, and others you might put up our all part of the natural process of ensuring survival of species, and ensuring a strong genetic pool.
Like I say man destroys, you really need to think out of the box , don't put human values on wild creatures and behaviour.

Can you explain what otters have done to ensure the survival of Barbel?
As long as its natural its ok for animals to destroy is it ? heres another the damage done by rabbits in Australia, was that natural? or how about rats destroying populations of mutton birds?

Like I said opinions
Click to expand...
 
Graham Young said:
Neil Smart said:
Nope the penny still haven't dropped has it?
Cats kill other cats nature
Elephants eat trees Beavers destroy trees.
Jelly fish ... well whatever.
But you should reassure yourself that all these events, and others you might put up our all part of the natural process of ensuring survival of species, and ensuring a strong genetic pool.
Like I say man destroys, you really need to think out of the box , don't put human values on wild creatures and behaviour.

Can you explain what otters have done to ensure the survival of Barbel?
As long as its natural its ok for animals to destroy is it ? heres another the damage done by rabbits in Australia, was that natural? or how about rats destroying populations of mutton birds?

Like I said opinions
Click to expand...

Consider there were just too many Barbel in our rivers, they took over the habitat that other species used, Chub being the most obvious. Without predation where would we be, imagine if a Kingfishet did not have to eat it's own weight in fish a day, including Barbel fry, imagine if there were no Perch Pike, or Birds of Prey? Predation plays a key role in benefiting all species, by ensuring the fit survive, nothing is wasted in nature, and there is a reason for everything.
Only Man breaks the rules.
Click to expand...
 
Neil Smart said:
Graham Young said:
Consider there were just too many Barbel in our rivers, they took over the habitat that other species used, Chub being the most obvious. Without predation where would we be, imagine if a Kingfishet did not have to eat it's own weight in fish a day, including Barbel fry, imagine if there were no Perch Pike, or Birds of Prey? Predation plays a key role in benefiting all species, by ensuring the fit survive, nothing is wasted in nature, and there is a reason for everything.
Only Man breaks the rules.
Click to expand...


And your proof that there were to many Barbel in our rivers is?

Problem is that Otters were put into places where they should not have been, same as the rabbits in Oz, they then commenced their destruction of their own habitat which is continuing today.

Seems the EA doesn't think there are to many Barbel in our rivers considering the amount they have stocked into our rivers over the last few years, I wonder why they have been doing that as all the other problems our rivers face have had no effect on Barbel populations as "there were to many Barbel in our rivers" couldn't have anything to do with the giant rat could it?
Click to expand...
 
Rabbits arent indigenous to Australia (same in England, the Romans brought them here too come to think of it) but Otters are to England, however I think certain counties in England which never had otter populations do now.

Barbel are a key indicator species indicitive of a healthy river according go the EU Water Habitat directive.

One could argue that bunging them in every river in the country helps the EA in trying to meet their targets.

If they did more habitat work then they probably wouldnt have to stock as many.
 
Ash Gould said:
Rabbits arent indigenous to Australia (same in England, the Romans brought them here too come to think of it) but Otters are to England, however I think certain counties in England which never had otter populations do now.

Barbel are a key indicator species indicitive of a healthy river according go the EU Water Habitat directive.

One could argue that bunging them in every river in the country helps the EA in trying to meet their targets.

If they did more habitat work then they probably wouldnt have to stock as many.
Click to expand...



As all land on earth was one huge continent until it started to drift apart all animals on earth were indigenous to anywhere on earth.
 
Graham Young said:
As all land on earth was one huge continent until it started to drift apart all animals on earth were indigenous to anywhere on earth.
Click to expand...

Problem with that is when continents were joined some species hadn't evolved and it was only when conditions suited they did, as said Rabbits were introduced to Australia, which is the same for many pests that we have, again Man's hand, not natures.
 
Neil, you keep telling everyone who disagrees with you that they 'Don't get it'. Has it not occurred to you that there is a teeny weeny chance that perhaps it is YOU who 'doesn't get it'?

We ALL know, every last one of us, that otters are a natural, indigenous part of British nature, that predators do indeed play a vital part in maintaining the delicate but natural balance that nature has designed. Also, we are all well aware than man is the destroyer. (That statement is a huge over generalisation, but basically correct). What you don't appear to be able to do is add those two facts together and come up with the obvious and logical conclusion. So, I will try once more to explain my view of it to you.

The point we are all trying to put across Neil is that the 'natural balance' that you keep banging on about, that happy state that these predators once played such an important part in maintaining....no longer exists. Nothing, not even an otter, can 'maintain' something....if that something is long gone, no longer exists. Surely that is one of those things that you refer to as a 'No brainer' isn't it?

In fact it is an awfully long time since ANY sort of 'natural balance' has existed in many of our rivers Neil. I guarantee that actually, there are none that are exactly as nature intended. Man 'the destroyer' as you put it, has seen to that. Some are in fact SO out of balance that they can barely sustain life at all, and even the best of them are now showing signs of underlying problems due entirely to our actions.

This fact has been partially papered over by the EA. Massive and ongoing stockings of fish from Calverton make the picture look rather more rosy than it actually is. Then again, as you know, we have been doing similar things, i.e 'managing' our rivers, making things look better that they really are....for centuries. We damage the ability of our fish to maintain their population levels, then are forced to intervene to redress the balance, to 'keep up appearances'. We have traditionally done that by reducing the numbers of predators present, until those numbers are back in balance with the prey fish levels we have at any given time.

Sadly, we now have rafts of non indigenous species of predators that are apparently beyond our control adding to the problem, so this issue gets ever more important as time goes by. At the same time, human activities and needs are not going to go away, if anything they are going to get worse as our population increases...we WILL compromise our rivers for the foreseeable future, however much nonsense our politicians spew out to the contrary. It is a dire situation.

So, you need to ask yourself some questions Neil, but don't ignore points that I have made because you don't wish to confront them, don't waffle and throw up yet another barrier composed entirely of red herrings...answer my questions...honestly.

Look at the situation that exists NOW. We all know the many causes of the dreadful state of many of our rivers, and that absolutely needs to be tackled. However, the fish populations in those rivers IS in crisis NOW. That being so, was encouraging a huge predator that hadn't been seen for many years to enter those struggling waters at this time....the actions of sane people? Would that folly IN ANY WAY help those fish that are already on the edge? Would it in any way be possible that the return of otters to those compromised areas could bring back the 'Natural balance' you keep bringing up? Or is it in fact absolutely guaranteed that their return to those damaged waters will do yet more harm to the troubled fish populations in those waters?

Sorry if those are all 'no brainers' Neil, but that's not my fault....those ARE the questions that show your stance on this issue up for what it is. Barbel are NOT more important than otters, or vice versa, that is not a sensible notion, nor one that anyone I know would put forward. Neither is the survival of one of these species more deserving than the other. However, it is an inescapable fact that with the banning of the chemicals that came close to destroying otters in this country, their survival is now guaranteed. They are born survivors, but we had to remove the man made substances that even they had could not defeat, before they could make a recovery.

The fact is, we need to do the same thing for our fish don't we? But that is not going to happen any time soon is it? That being so, is it unreasonable to think that we should temporarily control the numbers of otters, to give our rivers time to recover until they are able to naturally support a balanced number of otters?

I am no scientist, so I can't put forward any scientifically proven way of doing this. However, I have wondered whether selectively introduced, harmless, targeted birth control concoctions (much like the human birth control pill) could be used, with treated fish carcasses being left around in specific areas for instance. Possible? I don't know...but I do think that urgent research needs to be done to tackle this vexed problem. I think it would be dreadfully wrong to allow the self centered, tunnel visioned extremists who have vested interests in this situation to blind us all by pushing 'Aaah' inducing images of cuddly, furry otters on all and sundry...and pretending that this flagship 'miracle' return that they are so proud of...was achieved at no cost to our GENERAL riverine ecology whatsoever!

Sorry, waffled on WAY too much again. Just can't help myself :eek:

Cheers, Dave.
 
"As all land on earth was one huge continent until it started to drift apart all animals on earth were indigenous to anywhere on earth."

Other than the fact that there were no rabbits at all then Graham. Looks to sky.



There is an argument that as we are animals ourselves then everything we do, and affect, is in fact natural anyway, and so just another part of nature.
 
Graham Young said:
Neil Smart said:
Nope the

Can you explain what otters have done to ensure the survival of Barbel?
As long as its natural its ok for animals to destroy is it ? heres another the damage done by rabbits in Australia, was that natural? or how about rats destroying populations of mutton birds?


Like I said opinions
Click to expand...

How can we put up a single species such as Barbel as to the viability of nature and how she deals with inbalance ie ensuring no single species dominates to the detriment of others? As with the Barbel, the truth is there were just too many, that would have been a disaster for the species, perhaps.
Imagine if all future Barbel were farmed from stock fish, say Adams Mill fish, how soon would the Barbel lose it's sleek strong fighting qualities? Predation ensures the fit and healthy survive, ideally it will mean we can enjoy what we do, maybe the level of Barbel has dropped but I hope the Barbel will not resemble a tame pot belly Carp in the future.
Surely Graham you can understand what I am saying?
Click to expand...
 
David Gauntlett said:
Neil, you keep telling everyone who disagrees with you that they 'Don't get it'. Has it not occurred to you that there is a teeny weeny chance that perhaps it is YOU who 'doesn't get it'?

We ALL know, every last one of us, that otters are a natural, indigenous part of British nature, that predators do indeed play a vital part in maintaining the delicate but natural balance that nature has designed. Also, we are all well aware than man is the destroyer. (That statement is a huge over generalisation, but basically correct). What you don't appear to be able to do is add those two facts together and come up with the obvious and logical conclusion. So, I will try once more to explain my view of it to you.

The point we are all trying to put across Neil is that the 'natural balance' that you keep banging on about, that happy state that these predators once played such an important part in maintaining....no longer exists. Nothing, not even an otter, can 'maintain' something....if that something is long gone, no longer exists. Surely that is one of those things that you refer to as a 'No brainer' isn't it?

In fact it is an awfully long time since ANY sort of 'natural balance' has existed in many of our rivers Neil. I guarantee that actually, there are none that are exactly as nature intended. Man 'the destroyer' as you put it, has seen to that. Some are in fact SO out of balance that they can barely sustain life at all, and even the best of them are now showing signs of underlying problems due entirely to our actions.

This fact has been partially papered over by the EA. Massive and ongoing stockings of fish from Calverton make the picture look rather more rosy than it actually is. Then again, as you know, we have been doing similar things, i.e 'managing' our rivers, making things look better that they really are....for centuries. We damage the ability of our fish to maintain their population levels, then are forced to intervene to redress the balance, to 'keep up appearances'. We have traditionally done that by reducing the numbers of predators present, until those numbers are back in balance with the prey fish levels we have at any given time.

Sadly, we now have rafts of non indigenous species of predators that are apparently beyond our control adding to the problem, so this issue gets ever more important as time goes by. At the same time, human activities and needs are not going to go away, if anything they are going to get worse as our population increases...we WILL compromise our rivers for the foreseeable future, however much nonsense our politicians spew out to the contrary. It is a dire situation.

So, you need to ask yourself some questions Neil, but don't ignore points that I have made because you don't wish to confront them, don't waffle and throw up yet another barrier composed entirely of red herrings...answer my questions...honestly.

Look at the situation that exists NOW. We all know the many causes of the dreadful state of many of our rivers, and that absolutely needs to be tackled. However, the fish populations in those rivers IS in crisis NOW. That being so, was encouraging a huge predator that hadn't been seen for many years to enter those struggling waters at this time....the actions of sane people? Would that folly IN ANY WAY help those fish that are already on the edge? Would it in any way be possible that the return of otters to those compromised areas could bring back the 'Natural balance' you keep bringing up? Or is it in fact absolutely guaranteed that their return to those damaged waters will do yet more harm to the troubled fish populations in those waters?

Sorry if those are all 'no brainers' Neil, but that's not my fault....those ARE the questions that show your stance on this issue up for what it is. Barbel are NOT more important than otters, or vice versa, that is not a sensible notion, nor one that anyone I know would put forward. Neither is the survival of one of these species more deserving than the other. However, it is an inescapable fact that with the banning of the chemicals that came close to destroying otters in this country, their survival is now guaranteed. They are born survivors, but we had to remove the man made substances that even they had could not defeat, before they could make a recovery.

The fact is, we need to do the same thing for our fish don't we? But that is not going to happen any time soon is it? That being so, is it unreasonable to think that we should temporarily control the numbers of otters, to give our rivers time to recover until they are able to naturally support a balanced number of otters?

I am no scientist, so I can't put forward any scientifically proven way of doing this. However, I have wondered whether selectively introduced, harmless, targeted birth control concoctions (much like the human birth control pill) could be used, with treated fish carcasses being left around in specific areas for instance. Possible? I don't know...but I do think that urgent research needs to be done to tackle this vexed problem. I think it would be dreadfully wrong to allow the self centered, tunnel visioned extremists who have vested interests in this situation to blind us all by pushing 'Aaah' inducing images of cuddly, furry otters on all and sundry...and pretending that this flagship 'miracle' return that they are so proud of...was achieved at no cost to our GENERAL riverine ecology whatsoever!

Sorry, waffled on WAY too much again. Just can't help myself :eek:

Cheers, Dave.
Click to expand...

Blimey Dave, I need to sleep on this one, typing in the dark at the minute, work in the morning, fish in the afternoon, bear with me, there's a lot to ponder.
Neil
 
I think Graham can understand what you are saying Neil, as I do. I also think we both know it is a bit silly.

"How can we put up a single species such as Barbel as to the viability of nature to cope"

Neil...we cant, and nobody, least of all Ash, ever suggested we could. The people involved in formulating the EU water habitat directive have said that barbel are a 'key indicator species'. That is not saying that they are the only ones....minnows and bullheads would come into that category too, as they too are affected by any water quality decline at an early stage. The point is though that by sharing that trait AND being a whole lot bigger (thus far more easily observed) barbel are a far more useful indicator (ie, a key indicator)

The second part of that sentence (" the viability of nature and how she deals with inbalance ie ensuring no single species dominates to the detriment of others?) is silly too. The fact is that when something has warped a habitat in the way that we have savaged our rivers, then nature CANT cope. We need to take over ourselves, to bring it back to a state where nature can take over and carry on the good work. And otters in places where they just should not be at this time of damaged habitats....will in no way help that situation.

As to the last part of that, words fail me (almost). "Ensuring no single species dominates to the detriment of others". Are you sure Neil? That is exactly what otters are doing to our fish, in the areas where fish populations are not strong enough/numerous enough to cope. That is not the fault of the fish Neil, WE have done that to them. However many barbel otters wipe out, we will not end up with 'superbarbel', with teeth like Jaws, due to accelerated evolution. They are born survivors too, but in exactly the same way as otters...they cannot cope with artificial situations brought about by us. You can't have it both ways mate.

Cheers, Dave.
 
Darren.
It makes sorry reading. It also mirrors exactly what has happened to the beautiful River Chess more locally.

Neil. Trouble is you make sweeping statements .....like the last one re no hunting for animals with hounds is allowed......then realise its a rubbish inaccurate comment but still try and defend it.

I suggest you think a bit longer before always jumping in.

Gaz
 
As someone who used to teach about water - the article is not surprising. Over 30 years ago i recall teaching about a possible future where wars would be about water (not oil which at the time everyone was het up about). The article hits the nub of the issue - it is about water supply and river basin management, sorry guys but otter 'damage' is minimal in comparison yet it is the easy target so we spend pages on BFW arguing about this - if we do not address the big problems that the article refers to there will be no fish for otters or us. So why spend all the cash on H2S for example when we need a national water strategy - Scotland has a surplus and if they gain independence at some point in the future they will be exporting it to England big time. Water will be the new oil.
 
Neil Smart said:
Problem with that is when continents were joined some species hadn't evolved and it was only when conditions suited they did, as said Rabbits were introduced to Australia, which is the same for many pests that we have, again Man's hand, not natures.
Click to expand...

Not as we know them perhaps but the ancestors of what we see today would have been there.

I notice that you have put no evidence forward to support your theory (without facts that's all it is) that there were to many Barbel in our rivers, I ask you once again to provide evidence to support that please.

One day "the penny will drop" for you and you will realise that the opinions that you hold are not the opinions that others hold, perhaps if you realised that everyone thinks their opinion is the right one , that's why they are opinions and not fact all the sarcasm in the world will never change that fact.

I am perfectly willing for you to change my opinion but would like you to be under no illusion that to do that you will have to show me proof positive that otters have done no damage to our Barbel populations, can you do that?
 
When someone asks for evidence, you just know they have lost the argument.
I really don't need to get embroiled into another Otter argument, pretty much everyone's ideas are set, and no amount of debating will change anyone's views.
As no amount of finger pointing at Mr O will persuade anyone the Otter should be culled, so you better just live with it , for me to share the river bank with such creatures is a privelidge , I can't help think that the Carp pond mentality is very much part of some river anglers on here.
Please shoot me the day I just want to catch fish and not consider the other creatures that have more of a right to be there then any angler?
The End...
 
I see Nasa have said there is a good chance of water being on Mars . I wonder how long it will take before man lands on Mars and thrashes another planet :(
 
Graham Elliott said:
Darren.
It makes sorry reading. It also mirrors exactly what has happened to the beautiful River Chess more locally.

Neil. Trouble is you make sweeping statements .....like the last one re no hunting for animals with hounds is allowed......then realise its a rubbish inaccurate comment but still try and defend it.

I suggest you think a bit longer before always jumping in.

Gaz
Click to expand...

Well Gaz, perhaps one more shot at you, consider it a free hit, by hunting it might be assumed that it would result in a kill, not merely flushing out. Just to be clear.
You need to bone up a bit if you intend to join us country types in glorious Gloucestershire. Gawd help us!
 
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