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Thoughts on Barbel wising up to rigs

Mike Hodgkiss said:
A few more thoughts to add to the debate . There are a few comments as to fish being able to see rigs and to mitigate against this attempts are made to camouflage the end rig to make it less visible to the Barbel . Given that the bait/end rig is usually on the river bed, can Barbel actually see it at all ? The position of their eyes would suggest that their forward and sideways vision would be at best limited . I think most of the barbels ' seeing' is done with its mouth and barbules . Another thought ; most of the comments on the thread seem to relate to using boilies , pellets and bits of meat etc as bait , perhaps the Barbel are spooking on the bait ,associating certain baits with danger , perhaps they might spook less on natural baits like worms which they must encounter all the time , has anyone seen the spooking phenomena with natural baits?
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I made this observation earlier on in the thread. Barbel and carp cannot see what is in front of their mouths. They rely on touch and taste/smell via their barbules. Having watched barbel feed naturally they usually swim upstream in shoals, head down, angled at I would estimate, 30 to 40 degrees. They work their way upstream hoovering the bottom and do not make the random deviations that carp do. Then, at a given point they drift downstream and repeat the process. These are fish from around 9 inches to over 6lb. The difference is purely the size of the shoal. Smaller fish equals larger shoal. I have also seen larger fish feeding on their own in the same way.

When they take a bait I do not see them turn and go downstream as some have written about. I haven't seen that. What I have seen is the fish pick up my bait without any indication and continue upstream until it gets to the end of the leader. That is when you get the three foot twitch or some sort of lesser indication if the fish sits trying to rid itself of the hook.
 
Interesting Clive . I have seen both behaviours ,i.e. some barbel picking up the baited hook and carry on upstream until they feel the tension from the lead and then bolt , others pick up the baited hook them immediately swim downstream again bolting when they feel the resistance , from my experience the latter behaviour pattern is more common .Perhaps another thing to consider is do Barbel behave differently when in a group and competing for food as opposed to a solitary fish having more time as it were to consider the food in front of them [ can a barbel consider something ? ] Logic would say a barbel competing for food would be less wary ,i.e. grab it or lose it to one of your shoal mates
 
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Mike Hodgkiss said:
A few more thoughts to add to the debate . There are a few comments as to fish being able to see rigs and to mitigate against this attempts are made to camouflage the end rig to make it less visible to the Barbel . Given that the bait/end rig is usually on the river bed, can Barbel actually see it at all ? The position of their eyes would suggest that their forward and sideways vision would be at best limited . I think most of the barbels ' seeing' is done with its mouth and barbules . Another thought ; most of the comments on the thread seem to relate to using boilies , pellets and bits of meat etc as bait , perhaps the Barbel are spooking on the bait ,associating certain baits with danger , perhaps they might spook less on natural baits like worms which they must encounter all the time , has anyone seen the spooking phenomena with natural baits?
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I take your point about natural baits.

Fishing quantities of worms on serious carp waters was ‘a thing’ a few years back. For those that knew how to do it right; it trounced boilie fishing. But like most ‘new’ methods it only worked for so long. The fish worked out how NOT to get caught. Somebody should try it for barbel. A kilo of worms anybody……..

The same thing happened when bolt rigged maggots were first used for tench - I reckoned that virtually every fish that picked up the bait got hooked. But within 2 weeks on that water (sywell reservoir) the fish had worked out how to pick up the bait, spin the reel (Mitchell churners) and NOT get hooked.

One way or another the fish (probably any fish) work out how not to get hooked.
 
The shoal barbel I have watched just carry on upstream munching as they go. I can tell that they are feeding because sometimes they flop to one side and dig in a bit deeper with their snouts. There is no competition that I can see.
 
Clive Kenyon said:
The shoal barbel I have watched just carry on upstream munching as they go. I can tell that they are feeding because sometimes they flop to one side and dig in a bit deeper with their snouts. There is no competition that I can see.
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Most of my barbel swims on the Lot are too deep to watch this feeding behaviour. But this summer I was camping on the upper reaches and observed this barbel feeding exactly as you described, Clive......

Barbel from bridge.jpg


All by his lonesome self, no competition and he was actively feeding. Followed a fairly straight path upriver, nudged a few stones to find something of interest.

I would bet if I could have put a bait a few yards upstream I would have had him! Doubt it would have been a big bite in the gentle flow, unless he hooked himself!

Although the eyes of barbel are not best placed to see under their mouths, this one was certainly turning slightly and tilting its body. The movement might well have been to view some morsel of interest!
 
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There seems to be a fair bit of (tacit/un-stated) 'name calling' going on in this thread, which I think is mostly misplaced i.e. between those that see themselves as 'Progressives', and those that might identify as 'Traditionalists'. But I reckon that the most avid adherent and disciple of 'the old(e) ways' would willingly change their rigs (or gear) IF they think/find/establish that they DO have a problem. But first they'd have to establish that their rig IS causing a problem. I guess very few, if any, anglers on BFW are true 'stick in the muds', but maybe a fair few don't believe that their present rigs are presently flawed, ineffective, or inefficient. And maybe, just maybe, they are correct.
As I wrote earlier ... first establish that you do have a problem, and then (and only then) try to solve that problem. Don't change to the sake of change, don't try to fix what ain't broke. And, just because you have a problem on your stretch of river (with 'your' barbel) doesn't mean that everyone else has.
IME, anglers are one of the most inventive, innovative, and ingenious groups of enthusiasts, especially those older anglers that used to have to design and make much of their own gear. But to paraphrase Ockham ... "(Try to) keep it (as) simple (as possible), stupid". 😁
Re. turning downstream vs. carrying on upstream feeding : I think it can often be highly influenced by the size of the bait. A taken big bait is more likely to result in the barbel turning downstream with it, especially when within a shoal, whilst smaller baits will be 'hoovered' (obvs).
 
Tim Marks said:
I take your point about natural baits.

Fishing quantities of worms on serious carp waters was ‘a thing’ a few years back. For those that knew how to do it right; it trounced boilie fishing. But like most ‘new’ methods it only worked for so long. The fish worked out how NOT to get caught. Somebody should try it for barbel. A kilo of worms anybody……..

The same thing happened when bolt rigged maggots were first used for tench - I reckoned that virtually every fish that picked up the bait got hooked. But within 2 weeks on that water (sywell reservoir) the fish had worked out how to pick up the bait, spin the reel (Mitchell churners) and NOT get hooked.

One way or another the fish (probably any fish) work out how not to get hooked.
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A few years a go I spoke to an angler who pre baited massively with worms [ 100's of them ] on the Yorkshire Ouse It worked BUT although he caught Barbel be caught an awful lot more bream . Pre baiting for Barbel with worms is an old practice , back in victorian / edwardian times the gentleman angler would employ a man to pre bait the swim with sackfuls of worms often cased in clay balls to get the Barbel on the munch and guarantee a good days sport .
 
Ockham's Razor is often mistakenly misunderstood to say that about simplicity, Terry, but it doesn't necessarily mean the simplest explanation is the most likely to be correct one.
 
have to disagree terry if you think barbel aren’t ejecting your rigs sometimes your mistaken …the hard bit is accepting it
but if people are happy with they’re fishing the way it is then that’s fine crack on with what your doing …no one said it was wrong..but with the same token don’t dismiss anglers who want to try and do something different and try to improve they’re catch rates
it’s ok coming up with the old if it ain’t broke line but no one said anything was broken … just an honest opinion of mine and a few others that things can be improved
and yes there has probably been some unstated name calling … but every time this subject comes up there is also some blatant piss taking … but that’s fine we’re all big boys now

people in glass houses etc etc
geoffrey chaucer 😉

or ouch my eye is sore
king harold
 
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Terry Harman said:
have to disagree terry if you think barbel aren’t ejecting your rigs sometimes your mistaken …the hard bit is accepting it
but if people are happy with they’re fishing the way it is then that’s fine crack on with what your doing …no one said it was wrong..but with the same token don’t dismiss anglers who want to try and do something different and try to improve they’re catch rates
it’s ok coming up with the old if it ain’t broke line but no one said anything was broken … just an honest opinion of mine and a few others that things can be improved
and yes there has probably been some unstated name calling … but every time this subject comes up there is also some blatant piss taking … but that’s fine we’re all big boys now

people in glass houses etc etc
geoffrey chaucer 😉

or ouch my eye is sore
king harold
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All big boys, Terry, just some are bigger than others!
 
I don't think they necessarily wise up to certain rigs, but i do believe some 'rigs' I've heard and seen being used are way over complicated, and at best catch in spite of not because of.

What I do believe is Barbel ... as we are talking Barbel.... are far more likely to spook on situational factors ... i.e spots where they are caught from regularly, and it's not necessarily spooking per se' the fish that might be investigating your bait that hasn't been caught, but the one a few feet away that has... maybe more than once that spooks, giving you the birds on the lawn situation, one see's a cat and fly's off the rest don't necessarily see the cat, but fly away anyway.
Other things like little round balls all in a nice tight spot, tight lines they hit, resistance when mouthing a bait, all are possible factors in spooking a Barbel, and more.

Obviously Barbel in daylight must be able to see a 'rig' whatever it is, but as long as everything is fairly dark, or natural in colour I doubt very much that they could identify it.
If somebody wants to spend 15mins tieing up an all singing all dancing rig fair enough, unless it was something incredibly stupid i doubt it would cost them fish, i doubt it would catch them more either ! Far better to concentrate on removing those situational spook factors they keep coming up against every time they get hooked, it's all about loading the odds in your favour, removing as many spook factors as possible, can only improve your chances. ;)
 
I have followed this thread with interest and whilst I don't approve of so called "Grown Men" sniping at each other (pathetic actually) I can see the merit in many of the points raised.

I personally tend to use a combi rig and do not generally tinker with my rigs other than to change hook size, but without doubt the one thing which has turned my Barbel fishing around in recent years is the use of a free running back lead.

I know this would not work for everyone as I fish the Dorset Stour and Hants Avon which are relatively rock free and when visiting the Wye for instance wouldn't try fishing the same method for fear of the back lead snagging in rocks but where you can get away with it you will definitely find an improvement ;)
 
Keith Humphreys said:
I have followed this thread with interest and whilst I don't approve of so called "Grown Men" sniping at each other (pathetic actually) I can see the merit in many of the points raised.

I personally tend to use a combi rig and do not generally tinker with my rigs other than to change hook size, but without doubt the one thing which has turned my Barbel fishing around in recent years is the use of a free running back lead.

I know this would not work for everyone as I fish the Dorset Stour and Hants Avon which are relatively rock free and when visiting the Wye for instance wouldn't try fishing the same method for fear of the back lead snagging in rocks but where you can get away with it you will definitely find an improvement ;)
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As I have mentioned in previous posts the majority of my fishing is done up in yorkshire but try to get down to your neck of the woods at least once a year on holiday.There I fish mainly Throop but treat myself to at least one day on the Royalty.
About 5 yrs ago I changed my method of fishing from a maggot feeder or large lump of meat over a bed of hemp to fishing pellet or meat over a bed of mixed sized pellets on a straight leger set up.I was catching fish on this method but catching a lot fewer fish.One day whilst I was fishing on the Nidd a difficult swim where a vertical bank dropped into about a 3ft run perched on a small ledge halfway down the banking fishing across the river, when I noticed a barbel swimming upstream under my feet.I introduced some pellet next to the bank,wound in my rod and laid on the top of the bank to watch what happened.A shoal of about 7-8 barbel in the 3 to 6lb range started grazing over the bait and I tried fishing for them from the top of the bank.As soon as cast to them the swim emptied but they returned within a short length of time.I was fishing with a tight line to the leger,as soon as a barbel touched the line it bolted taking the rest of the shoal with it.To cut a long story short I learnt a lot by fishing that swim at every opportunity.After a lot of tinkering the method that worked was to have the rod nearly vertical in the rest at a 45 degree angle to the current and introduce a large bow in the line.To attach the lead I use a quick change leger link above a bead,then a swivel to attach a hooklink.I then tie a stopknot around 3 to 6 inch above the free running lead to make a semi fixed bolt rig (obviously making sure the stopknot slides to avoid tethering fish if a breakage occurs).If the fish twigged a slack line it would turn and drift out of the area rather than bolt leaving the other fish undisturbed.I now use this set up for most of my river fishing,you either get a drop back bite or a drop back bite before the 3 inch twitch of the butt.It also enables you to "bounce" a lead downstream rather than across the current.
This method has and still does work for me up in yorkshire despite a poor season this year but that seems to be the case on most rivers.It also works on the Stour including landing a pb barbel of 15lb exactly 2 seasons ago on this set up but have blanked on the Royalty using it so back leads may be the way to go on the Avon.Stay safe all.
 
Steve Arnold said:
Most of my barbel swims on the Lot are too deep to watch this feeding behaviour. But this summer I was camping on the upper reaches and observed this barbel feeding exactly as you described, Clive......

View attachment 17248

All by his lonesome self, no competition and he was actively feeding. Followed a fairly straight path upriver, nudged a few stones to find something of interest.

I would bet if I could have put a bait a few yards upstream I would have had him! Doubt it would have been a big bite in the gentle flow, unless he hooked himself!

Although the eyes of barbel are not best placed to see under their mouths, this one was certainly turning slightly and tilting its body. The movement might well have been to view some morsel of interest!
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I got the impression that they were digging a little deeper to locate something they had tasted, smelled or touched with their barbels. I don't see them deviate much from an upstream path, unlike carp who definitely do use their eyes to locate food initially, and wander around more.

When wading whilst fly-fishing in the Wharfe I would see barbel of over 6lb sucking the caddis off the top and vertical faces of large stones, completely oblivious to my presence. They acted just like catfish in aquariums. Since then I have watched French barbel feeding on vertical walls of bridges in the same way.

Roach in the Marans canal take hold of snails that are attached to the concrete wall of a jetty, then quickly twist their whole body which loosens the snail's grip. Mullet do the same.
 
Adrian Mitchell said:
As I have mentioned in previous posts the majority of my fishing is done up in yorkshire but try to get down to your neck of the woods at least once a year on holiday.There I fish mainly Throop but treat myself to at least one day on the Royalty.
About 5 yrs ago I changed my method of fishing from a maggot feeder or large lump of meat over a bed of hemp to fishing pellet or meat over a bed of mixed sized pellets on a straight leger set up.I was catching fish on this method but catching a lot fewer fish.One day whilst I was fishing on the Nidd a difficult swim where a vertical bank dropped into about a 3ft run perched on a small ledge halfway down the banking fishing across the river, when I noticed a barbel swimming upstream under my feet.I introduced some pellet next to the bank,wound in my rod and laid on the top of the bank to watch what happened.A shoal of about 7-8 barbel in the 3 to 6lb range started grazing over the bait and I tried fishing for them from the top of the bank.As soon as cast to them the swim emptied but they returned within a short length of time.I was fishing with a tight line to the leger,as soon as a barbel touched the line it bolted taking the rest of the shoal with it.To cut a long story short I learnt a lot by fishing that swim at every opportunity.After a lot of tinkering the method that worked was to have the rod nearly vertical in the rest at a 45 degree angle to the current and introduce a large bow in the line.To attach the lead I use a quick change leger link above a bead,then a swivel to attach a hooklink.I then tie a stopknot around 3 to 6 inch above the free running lead to make a semi fixed bolt rig (obviously making sure the stopknot slides to avoid tethering fish if a breakage occurs).If the fish twigged a slack line it would turn and drift out of the area rather than bolt leaving the other fish undisturbed.I now use this set up for most of my river fishing,you either get a drop back bite or a drop back bite before the 3 inch twitch of the butt.It also enables you to "bounce" a lead downstream rather than across the current.
This method has and still does work for me up in yorkshire despite a poor season this year but that seems to be the case on most rivers.It also works on the Stour including landing a pb barbel of 15lb exactly 2 seasons ago on this set up but have blanked on the Royalty using it so back leads may be the way to go on the Avon.Stay safe all.
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I have a similar swim on the Charente. I normally sit back from the edge behind cover and cast to mid river then keeping a tight line bring the feeder or lead back, arcing under an overhanging tree about 3 or 4 metres out and downstream. One day a few months ago I sat close to the edge and fished beyond mid river. Because I was sat about 5 feet above the surface I could see into the water, 6 foot deep, under the bank edge. A carp came along and browsed on the spilled bait from the feeder. Later two bream entered and began to feed. On another occassion a barbel was present. None of them spooked for very long if I disturbed them unlike the resident two chub that disappeared on first sight and never return.

I have the same problem that you describe. How to get a bait to them three feet from the bank and six foot down? The width of the fishable area is only about four feet. The only way I can see how to fish this is to have the rod tip just above the surface at one end and fish the bait as far away as possible at the other end, right up against the bank. That way the line will be alongside the vertical bank.
 
Im sorry.I thought this was a faceweb site to discuss fishing,not for philosophy,This is the only online contact that I use and realise that im not the best on it with my one finger typing but enjoy reading other anglers posts and techniques.Dont need hassle.Stay safe and be kind.
 
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