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Severn river trust

Graham Young said:
Neither are Barbel in some English rivers, so should they be culled to protect the species that are indigenous to that river?
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Graham that is the $64000 question ? When ever man has meddled with nature ?
Some thing goes wrong with the balance of nature ? and it ends in tears
 
If we culled zander wouldn't we then also have to cull carp which are also not indigenous, which would almost certainly reduce angling to a fringe minority pastime for good.

Nick C
 
Nick Coulthurst said:
If we culled zander wouldn't we then also have to cull carp which are also not indigenous, which would almost certainly reduce angling to a fringe minority pastime for good.

Nick C
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Excellent :D:D:D

Add to that rainbow trout, catfish, sturgeon and a host of other fish species that some folk enjoy angling for, and there would then be plenty of room on the banks for those of us left....until angling was banned :D

Cheers, Dave.
 
Nick Coulthurst said:
If we culled zander wouldn't we then also have to cull carp which are also not indigenous, which would almost certainly reduce angling to a fringe minority pastime for good.

Nick C
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My point about Zander was that they are predatory fish and eat other fish ? and as far as I was aware were imported from Eastern Europe . So over the years what have they been munching there way through ?

I just find it strange we can talk about the damage that Otters and Cormorants have done over the years and yet nobody is willing to talk about a threat that lies below the surface ? When it comes to Zander ?

Surely if we want our rivers to improve then we have to look at all options how ever much some of us dont like to even think about what some of the solutions may be ?

I fish the Lower Severn and people complain that Barbel numbers are dwindling and that there are no smaller fish being caught ? As far as I am aware there are good numbers of Zander present in the Lower Severn ? What sort of a impact has that had on Barbel numbers and other fish in the Severn over the years ? Or is some one going to tell me that Zander dont eat small Barbel ? Thus reducing the numbers of fish left in the river ? Strange that on the Lower if you catch a Barbel there is a good chance it will be a large fish ? So what has happened to any of the smaller fish that may have been in the river ?
 
The thing is Joe, barbel numbers are down on the Severn from Gloucester to Ironbridge, and there are little or no Zander above Stourport, yes we are seeing some concentrations of large fish below Worcester, but you are right, the back up fish that we caught a few years back are not there in the numbers that they were, very few 4,5 and 6 pounders are being caught, now that in itself could point to another dilemma, whilst all small barbel arent necessarily male fish, most 9 pound plussers and double figured (if not all) barbel are female, so are we witnessing a significant decline in the male barbel population? This in its self could be a major contributing factor to the decline of the Severn barbel population pase'......?
 
Joe Fletcher said:
My point about Zander was that they are predatory fish and eat other fish ? and as far as I was aware were imported from Eastern Europe . So over the years what have they been munching there way through ?

I just find it strange we can talk about the damage that Otters and Cormorants have done over the years and yet nobody is willing to talk about a threat that lies below the surface ? When it comes to Zander ?

Surely if we want our rivers to improve then we have to look at all options how ever much some of us dont like to even think about what some of the solutions may be ?

I fish the Lower Severn and people complain that Barbel numbers are dwindling and that there are no smaller fish being caught ? As far as I am aware there are good numbers of Zander present in the Lower Severn ? What sort of a impact has that had on Barbel numbers and other fish in the Severn over the years ? Or is some one going to tell me that Zander dont eat small Barbel ? Thus reducing the numbers of fish left in the river ? Strange that on the Lower if you catch a Barbel there is a good chance it will be a large fish ? So what has happened to any of the smaller fish that may have been in the river ?
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Only the same impact that would have taken place if Zander were not there, any niche that the Zander has filled would have been filled by Pike Perch Chub or any other predator that you wish to name if Zander hadn't, predator numbers are controlled by available prey, if there are lots of Zander in the lower Severn (I don't know) then there must be plenty of prey for them.

The situation with no smaller fish is one that I have seen before on a small river that as far as I know has no stock of Zander although being joined to the Trent there is that possibility, 4 years ago smaller 6 to 8 lb fish were common, you would be hard pushed to find any of that size in the stretch I fished now, what has been seen is Otters.
 
All this look after this look after that species is very much a non starter....the physical make up and water quality of a river will decide what lives in it.......predation and flooding affects are here to stay, don't believe otherwise.

So it's look after the river the best we can and the river will provide sport to the best of its capability.

Barbel have been just a very small blip in the teme's history
 
The thing is Jason, I accept that barbel are a very new species to the Teme and the Severn, and there is a bigger picture, there always is, but as I have said many times, no body is asking why the Teme's barbel population has fallen so dramatically, or for that matter the Severn, especially as they are an accepted indicator/canary species on the continent, freshwater studies in various European countries concentrate on the barbel, they stock barbel to monitor their well being, because if the barbel start dying off or numbers fall dramatically , it is an indication of bigger problems, whilst we as lay people can therorise on the causes, i.e. Otters, Cray fish, water quality, the feminisation of the male fish or poor quality spawning sites, we dont really know, all I know is that barbel numbers are significantly down on many rivers, we need to know why? Since the decline of the barbel population on the Teme and Severn, we saw a spike in big Chub, but from what my Teme contacts tell me the Chub in the Teme are going the same way as the barbel......
 
All this look after this look after that species is very much a non starter....the physical make up and water quality of a river will decide what lives in it.......predation and flooding affects are here to stay, don't believe otherwise.

So it's look after the river the best we can and the river will provide sport to the best of its capability.

Barbel have been just a very small blip in the teme's history

Agree with the above, plus how many fish eggs and fry do you think barbel munch their way through!
 
Jason Bean said:
All this look after this look after that species is very much a non starter....the physical make up and water quality of a river will decide what lives in it.......predation and flooding affects are here to stay, don't believe otherwise.

So it's look after the river the best we can and the river will provide sport to the best of its capability.

Barbel have been just a very small blip in the teme's history
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That's a bit too much of a fatalistic view for me, its like saying.. "well its nature, and we can't do anything about that". Yes, cycles are natural..but when there's a very strong indication that something radical has happened, don't you want to know what that 'something' is?
Until we know what HAS already happened, we won't know if its a nature/natural 'thing', or not . Or if we can do anything about 'it' or not!
Something HAS changed, and Knowledge IS power.
 
A sensible post Terry.

As Lol indicated earlier regards Severn and Teme -. On the Kennet and Loddon the first indications of a problem were the sudden lack of the smaller fish in the 3-8lb class.

Those who were regular anglers, noted this change 5 or more years ago and highlighted it multiple times here and elsewhere.
Unfortunately there were some who said we were wrong and they were content to catch the odd large fish.


Graham
d
 
Hiya Dave,

I failed to convey my point correctly there...my apologies, sorry...I agree with your reply. However, for the greater good, I do still feel groups and individuals need to work together rather closely on this, no matter what their opinions are on each other. Well, as much as physically possible anyhow.
I've actually yet to see any real hard data myself on the weir so I'll leave passing judgement until it arrives. There are many weir removal/modification projects that have taken place up and down the country and all over Europe, they have had a very positive impact, that can not be questioned, the living evidence is there. I believe the SRT done a presentation earlier this year and highlighted a number of cases, unfortunately I wasn't there to see it as I'm sure many others weren't too. Obviously, each river is unique and we all know that, down to some quite severe land management, the Teme suffers from a good supply of water in summer. I live not far from the upper reaches and see its problems. That's another debate though...there should be an awful lot of data on the Powick weir project, I would hope some very intelligent people have done some very important number crunching, I would like to see the calculations. The consultants have put together a comprehensive river restoration report but if memory serves me correct, I don't see many precise numbers regarding Powick weir and I've not seen anything from the EA yet. That is a worry.
I'll be completely honest, my initial thought was this particular project was a good thing for the Teme barbel, look at the projects that have already taken place and it's quite easy to assume that, but after listening to a good number of anglers I fully understand their fears. I'm keeping an open mind and awaiting the data.

Tight lines.
 
I'm interested to know how barbel are considered an indicator species, Lawrence. What does it indicate on the continent if they are disappearing?
 
Terry Simner said:
That's a bit too much of a fatalistic view for me, its like saying.. "well its nature, and we can't do anything about that". Yes, cycles are natural..but when there's a very strong indication that something radical has happened, don't you want to know what that 'something' is?
Until we know what HAS already happened, we won't know if its a nature/natural 'thing', or not . Or if we can do anything about 'it' or not!
Something HAS changed, and Knowledge IS power.
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That's it....it is just nature, how can you say something is wrong? The barbel were invasive to the teme, they lasted a few decades in too large a populations and now they have crashed...how can you base any descision on reasons for decline on the history and populations the teme had?

The Severn is a totally different river.....one that will always support a healthy barbel population.

Comparisons can be the lugg on the wye and the vrynwny on the Severn
 
Heavy metal and chemical pollution Damian.......and the level of the P. Laevis parasite infestation in the barbel is another indicator as the parasite thrives in high levels of heavy metal pollution,the parasite infects the shrimp, the barbel eat the shrimp, the parasite grows inside the barbel by attaching itself to the stomach wall, the barbel can die from this alone, the eggs of the parasite are excreted by the barbel and the shrimp eats the eggs of the parasite and the barbel eats the shrimp the circle is completed........thats why fisheries scientists and biologists both here and on the European continent find them invaluable and a fascinating canary early indicator species in giving an indication of industrial pollution, today and from the past, heavy metals lie deep in the silt and gravel, barbel grub about in this environment and ingest those heavy metals and chemical residues, this then can cause death or defects......
 
Bobby Baker said:
The various trusts carry out fantastic work up and down the country Terry, I'm mainly fixated on barbel bothering and still fully support the SRT, not overly sure where the 'game fish only' thing comes from? Although, I did recently attend the Leaping Lights Salmon Festival in Newtown the other month, a superbly organised event with masses of adults, children, and anglers celebrating the old 'bar of silver' and its journey up the Severn. They had all the local kids build hundreds of fishy lanterns so that they could walk them upstream to the park in celebration, it was bloody brilliant to see, I would support them off that alone. Although, it was awfully game fish like mind you!

I wonder if they would do something similar for the barbel, or do they fear it'd be full of grumpy old men who can't agree with one another? The annual barbel show is always a good laugh and full of smiles, so that's possibly not a true view about us.

I believe one of the aims of the restoration project is 'To return the river to a more natural condition and ecological health by restoring the rivers more natural form and function over the next 50 years'. That would suggest removing any man made structures that are felt to be hindering the rivers recovery to former glory - 'The river restoration plan is based on a detailed scientific understanding of the river and floodplain'. I would much rather have faith in what these folk, it's all part of the process in achieving a 'good status' in the EU's WFD.

Some of the opinions in this thread need to be taken with a pinch of salt Terry, these experts on barbel and river ecology were the same folk saying 'the lower Severn is finished as a barbel fishery' just two-three seasons ago.

Regarding the otter support, imagine a day some time in the future where representatives from various wildlife and angling groups are all stood on the river bank together discussing how to improve the river as a whole for all the creepy crawlers, furry rodents, slimy fish, and flowers. Oh wouldn't it be great! Wonder who'd be the first to put their foot in it though and upset the others? :D
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Your last post Bobby appears to contradict your first post on this thread....... Has the wind changed direction or something....
 
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