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Severn river trust

Jason Bean said:
I'm fortunate to have fished the teme in its prime, but it was always false.

I have seen first hand how bad ea river work can be but I have also seen the opposite.

Again......the likes of DG in there own deeply, perhaps entrenched and deluded views of everything in the world cross over to angling??

Dave your knocking on a bit but don't put your sad world on me

:D I'll put a smiley as that is what you do.......:D
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Your post's and logic get ever more difficult to make any sense of Jason.

I'm fortunate to have fished the teme in its prime, but it was always false.

If you saw it as false, why did you continue to fish it? Surely any decent angler who holds that view would not continue to fish it on principle? Or don't you have any principles? Again, having fished it in it's prime, why are you subsequently happy to agree with an action that may well finish it's already damaged capacity as a prime barbel river? Is that a case of selfishness, a case of 'I have already been there, done that, got the 'T' shirt....so to hell with all you future generations? Still, I suppose they could always fish for shad, couldn't they?

I have seen first hand how bad ea river work can be but I have also seen the opposite.

So, if you have seen both sides of EA work, seen how hit and miss it can be, what convinces you that this particular operation will be one of their better ones? And if, as Lawrence predicts, it turns out to be a very bad idea....what will YOU do about that?


Again......the likes of DG in there own deeply, perhaps entrenched and deluded views of everything in the world cross over to angling??

You lost me once more there Jason. My views may possibly be, Just as yours may possibly be, 'Deeply entrenched and deluded'. However, I don't have to 'Cross over to angling'...I, along with my views, have been involved in angling from a time probably long before you were a twinkle in your dad's eye.

Dave your knocking on a bit but don't put your sad world on me
:D I'll put a smiley as that is what you do.......:D


Firstly, I am not knocking on a bit, I am knocking on a lot. That apart, I can't put 'MY sad world' on you, because that isn't my world. I agree that in many ways this world IS a bit sad now, but it is YOUR selfish, throw away, must have everything NOW generation that is making it that way, and as a result it's getting sadder by the day. Never mind chap, do have a smiley :D

Cheers, Dave.
 
We can do marvellous things these days with science and technology-why, we eventually managed to solve the issue of the milk carton by inventing the screw top plastic container. My clothes certainly feel the benefit of that. So I would hope that science would enable us to predict the impact of removing a weir and then act accordingly. This assumes that the reason for its removal is to help improve flow and fishy highways whilst also helping to create new spawning sites. If it does not achieve these things then in the future we will have a textbook example of how not to interfere with the infrastructure already in place.

I do wish we barbel anglers could show a little more compassion and understanding when discussing this and related topics. You only know you fished a river in its prime when it is in decline. Understanding the reasons for that decline are important, especially for those most directly affected. It can take a number of seasons for that decline to become permanently established and perhaps a clearer picture to emerge of the various dynaics at play. Quite what can be done about those dynamics is another matter entirely and often the answer is not much.

My personal circumstances mean that I can only really fish the Kennet on a regular basis as its on my doorstep. I have only really been fishing for barbel for the past years and even in that short time I have seen the barbel fishing deteriorate quite profoundly (speak to those that have fished it for 20 years plus and an even more depressing picture emerges). Many stretches I fish can look breathtakingly beautiful on the surface, but seem barren beneath when you fish them. Its so difficult not to take what might appear to be an exaggerated and disproportionate position on things like otters (undoubtedly a significant factor on the Kennet and other rivers but by no means the only issue). But this simply reflects the sense of loss that anglers feel for their local or favourite rivers. Its a quite natural human response.

That need to understand the full range of contributory factors is of paramount importance to my mind as is examining the opposite end of the spectrum-those rivers that do seem to be surviving or even thriving. The frustration is our seeming inability to connect, to identify the data points and then set about collecting them in a truly coordinated fashion in order to build powerful insight that could help to meaningfully inform wider habitat projects. This does necessarily mean working far more collaboratively with other bodies, identifying common ground and mutual dependency.

Hugely difficult all that.
 
Hi Howard. An excellent post.

I guess some of us (especially the older ones) are looking at quick fixes. With deterioration seemingly happening over the padt 10 years or so, we probably think the reasons are apparently things that stand out as changed from just before then

Otters
Crayfish
Pellets
Heavier pheromone pollutions.

We probably want work focused on these subjects not on non changed areas such as spawning grounds etc.
( these artificially created ones tend to move after massive floods)

There is also the impatience of knowing that time consuming " ongoing surveys" such as the BS spawnwatch efforts never see the light of day to those that may have contributed.....unless members. Somewhat unfair?

I understand working for the future but how long for?

Key areas need positive action. Multiple interest Commitees don't often produce that.
 
Anyone know how much Income the Barbel Society have received for R and D over the past 8 or so years since certain income was ring fenced?

Guessing £80, 000.

Graham
 
I think this thread clearly highlights what the SRT are up against, or anyone that takes on the 'care for all' approach. There are those that try to manage an Eco-system, then there are those that are species specific conservationists. Who has the right to decide on the utopian balance?
Until those can work together in unity, (can they ever?) it'll be a tough ride no matter what the end goal. Fortunately work carried out in the name of the WFD should benefit all species.
 
Sorry Bobby but the BARBEL Society would seem to indicate that it's named that for a reason.

Even Specific charities don't plan to change the whole world.

More areas they subscribe to otherwise their efforts are watered down and the donation to them made in good faith is ill spent.

Graham
 
It's an incredibly important debate this, but also deeply frustrating because we seem to debate/argue the same points and then land in the same place. This is a single species forum, the BS is a single species organisation. The plight of our beloved barbel matters enormously to us but probably buggar all to the countless organisations with some direct or indirect claim or interest in the rivers and connected habitat.

It has always seemed to me that the only way we can make any kind of difference, something that improves the chances of barbel maintaing their residence in our rivers, is by establishing that fluctuating barbel populations can represent some sort of general health barometer for rivers and critically, identifying and supporting iniatives that whilst not directly designed to help barbel, could do so nonetheless.

I don't believe we can be in a constant state of rage- we just come across as self serving angry anglers. But we do, perhaps, need to be more unified in vocalising issues that impact barbel, making sure that the message is appropriately nuanced to demonstrate that something that is bad for barbel is also bad for.....

There might, it seems to me, also be a need to work with organisations that whilst not always or totally aligned to the interests of the barbel angler, have certain initiatives or projects that might well benefit barbel. Again, that depends on us having a clear picture and understanding of the various dynamics that impact barbel populations.

Through all this, we might find some unpalatable truths. Some rivers just might not be suitable to sustain a barbel population in the medium/long term. Or, a river even in rude health may only support a certain biomass of barbel and any increase is actually damaging in some way or profoundly detrimental to other fish species.

We need data, lots of solid, irrefutable data. And analysis, science and the collective knowledge and experience of anglers.

Only photos of Kelly Brook peeling chewing gum off pavements helps restore my mental equilibrium after thinking through all this stuff.
 
Well said Howard, some good stuff there, you have my vote, this is Barbel Fishing world and its not unreasonable to look at things from a barbel perspective, the barbel Society should be concerned with the barbel as a species and its environment, acknowledge other views yes, but be firmly the barbels advocate, the Otters have their breeders and releasers , the Shad have their champions, the environment have their eco warriors, yes lets talk to them all.....but occasionally we have to thump the table, over the last ten years some rivers have seen the biggest decline in barbel populations of modern times and the problem is progressively getting worse with each year passing, the Teme is a glowing example of this, the problem with getting too cozy with groups like SRT means that when the time comes to maybe bang the table, the reluctance to lobby and challenge comes to the fore, and capitulation follows.......they all should concern themselves on the barbels plight, they are a canary species, and when they fail it usually indicates bigger problems, thats how they are viewed in Europe.
 
All I can add is that the majority of barbel rivers are showing increased levels of silver fish yet declines in barbel populations and maybe chub levels more recently.


I've been having some cracking roach perch and dace from Thames tributaries and feeders.

So those species seem to be benefitting from the barbel decline or changing dynamics.

Maybe we need a SOB group formed. ( Save Our Barbel) if no one else is considering it as a main focus!
 
I wonder if anyone has done any research into the effects of angling pressure? Let's face it, there has been a huge increase in the popularity of barbel fishing in recent years which has been demonstrated to have had an impact on the dietary intake of the species (and one that was discussed on another thread earlier this year). However, with a new breed of angler being taught by'visual means' (DVD's) the recognisible holding areas must be getting seriously hammered and this surely could have had negative consequences. Couple this with the rise in predation and the fish may have become more vulnerable. Repeat captures are unlikely to help matters and maybe there's an argument that certain club stretches should be allowed rest periods for let's say a full season. I doubt if this has ever been tried, but it may be worth a punt. If nothing else, it would make certain groups of anglers have to rethink their game plan and might even throw up a few surprises when they are forced to try parts of the river that previously have remained relatively unfished.
 
Howard Cooke said:
It's an incredibly important debate this, but also deeply frustrating because we seem to debate/argue the same points and then land in the same place. This is a single species forum, the BS is a single species organisation. The plight of our beloved barbel matters enormously to us but probably buggar all to the countless organisations with some direct or indirect claim or interest in the rivers and connected habitat.

It has always seemed to me that the only way we can make any kind of difference, something that improves the chances of barbel maintaing their residence in our rivers, is by establishing that fluctuating barbel populations can represent some sort of general health barometer for rivers and critically, identifying and supporting iniatives that whilst not directly designed to help barbel, could do so nonetheless.

I don't believe we can be in a constant state of rage- we just come across as self serving angry anglers. But we do, perhaps, need to be more unified in vocalising issues that impact barbel, making sure that the message is appropriately nuanced to demonstrate that something that is bad for barbel is also bad for.....

There might, it seems to me, also be a need to work with organisations that whilst not always or totally aligned to the interests of the barbel angler, have certain initiatives or projects that might well benefit barbel. Again, that depends on us having a clear picture and understanding of the various dynamics that impact barbel populations.

Through all this, we might find some unpalatable truths. Some rivers just might not be suitable to sustain a barbel population in the medium/long term. Or, a river even in rude health may only support a certain biomass of barbel and any increase is actually damaging in some way or profoundly detrimental to other fish species.

We need data, lots of solid, irrefutable data. And analysis, science and the collective knowledge and experience of anglers.

Only photos of Kelly Brook peeling chewing gum off pavements helps restore my mental equilibrium after thinking through all this stuff.
Click to expand...

Howard, i'm no expert when it comes to barbel fishing, as much as i love it. Now Kelly Brook, that is another matter. Please PM. me. If you would like more than just pictures. :) I used to date her. ;) She couldn,t get enough of me.

Oh s**t, ive just woke up after a wonderful dream. :D

Seriously, one of the best ever threads on the forum.
And one of the most important.
Great arguments from both sides.
 
powick weir

Bobby. Or anyone attending please.

I read there was a meeting planned recently of affected and interested parties regards the removal of the weir.

Can you advise the outcomes please? What were the overall views of those fishing clubs in attendance?

For or against?

Thanks

Graham.
 
Anthony Pearson said:
I wonder if anyone has done any research into the effects of angling pressure? Let's face it, there has been a huge increase in the popularity of barbel fishing in recent years which has been demonstrated to have had an impact on the dietary intake of the species (and one that was discussed on another thread earlier this year). However, with a new breed of angler being taught by'visual means' (DVD's) the recognisible holding areas must be getting seriously hammered and this surely could have had negative consequences. Couple this with the rise in predation and the fish may have become more vulnerable. Repeat captures are unlikely to help matters and maybe there's an argument that certain club stretches should be allowed rest periods for let's say a full season. I doubt if this has ever been tried, but it may be worth a punt. If nothing else, it would make certain groups of anglers have to rethink their game plan and might even throw up a few surprises when they are forced to try parts of the river that previously have remained relatively unfished.
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That was my take on it, that pressure could have contributed to the decline, to target barbel in their 'safe' areas could not have helped, the old maxim on the Teme is/was if you cant see 'em they will be there.

Probably not the main reason, but with all the guiding that was the mainstay to a few celebrity anglers hardly a sustainable practice was it? The Teme was hammered a few years ago, with the BAA having matches on some of it's stretches, talk about Killing the Goose....

A lot of these problems we as Anglers have brought on ourselves, and as the remaining Rivers that hold Barbel get ever more squeezed with Anglers travelling 100's of miles the situation is unlikely to improve.

Why some even move house :p

And as far as resting stretches...Yes, I even stated that whole stretches of the Teme should lie 'fallow' for a few years, of course the problems that might unearth just might not be a little out of context with some, but the as long as we turn a blind eye to poaching and fishing out of season (Powick) we can hardly just point the finger at the Otter can we? We need to all stop being so selfish, and more attuned to how we can improve things by making a few sacrifices of our own.
 
Totally agree Neil.

You should give up fishing for the benefit of others.

See. Cheap shot in response to yours Smarty. I even remember you going on for page after page about and critcising publicity hungry anglers.....until someone put a link of a video you had made about catching barbel in a flood!!! That was a laugh..

Grow up.

Back to subject
 
Graham Elliott said:
Totally agree Neil.

You should give up fishing for the benefit of others.

See. Cheap shot in response to yours Smarty. I even remember you going on for page after page about and critcising publicity hungry anglers.....until someone put a link of a video you had made about catching barbel in a flood!!! That was a laugh..

Grow up.

Back to subject
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The subject was never left, and if I was having rib at you then why so fragile? After all it is why you moved , no? Nothing to be angry about and rude. That video was for my son's course work at college, whilst I don't brag about my offsprings achevement he did go on to get an Honours, yes in spite of the laugh as you describe it.
And you tell me to grow up whilst calling me Smarty, well there goes the neighbourhood I guess.
 
Howard Cooke said:
There might, it seems to me, also be a need to work with organisations that whilst not always or totally aligned to the interests of the barbel angler, have certain initiatives or projects that might well benefit barbel. Again, that depends on us having a clear picture and understanding of the various dynamics that impact barbel populations.

Through all this, we might find some unpalatable truths. Some rivers just might not be suitable to sustain a barbel population in the medium/long term.
Click to expand...

Good post was that Howard.
I suspect though that many anglers , myself included, have begun to lose faith in 'certain initiatives and projects' which will eventually recommend certain inevitable directives and strategies to put things right. From my early days of attending meetings and reporting back to my committee the local consultative initiatives for our poor old river and receiving a cool response along the lines of ' they've been saying that for years and nothing's changed',...it sometimes feels like dejavu. One organisation morphs into another promising a new dawn, and ...here we still are, not knowing quite what the exact problems are.
I again had a read of Kevin Grozier's ' Avon Days and Stour Ways' today, in which he talks about everything that is relevant to this thread and only fear of the plagiarism and copywrite laws prevent me from quoting some his astute observations which were penned 8 or 9 years ago.
I am a great believer in habitat restoration, but have concerns about who we as anglers are jumping into bed with, and suspect that our ultimate goal is not the same as some of our new bedfellows.
Trying to put the easy cynism aside for a bit, ....I guess it's the old half full or half empty glass syndrome , ..and start in reverse whereby instead of listing all the negatives, we decide on what actually creates good substainable barbel habitat and run with that,...but I'm not sure if anyone really knows.
Would it really consist of a series of weirs? Would we allow polluted run off and other chemical laden sewrage to be tipped in? Would we allow much of the pure groundwater to be tapped at source and deprive the river of it's lifeblood? Would we allow angling ?? Blimey, except for the last one I'm back to listing negatives again,....I'll get me coat...
 
Hi men ,

Back on subject , well sort of :) . The " pressure " thing dont quiet sit with me . Yes i can see it on perhaps the lower lower , which was well fished , but only in comparison to other bits of the Teme , but compared to bits of the kennet we have looked at that had bivvys on it , not so :rolleyes: . The bit me and Sue loved , and fished for 3 seasons was so lightly fished that overnight we used to just prop the rods up against a tree . On one occation we left the gear , cooking gear , and went off to look at antique shops after a good brekkie at the Talbot pub :eek: . In 3 seasons we only see 6 other anglers , and one of those was a friend we arranged to meet . That stretch is effected by what ever is wrong with the river , but bait / pressure / matches /guiding cant be laid at the door .

Neil , miss bumping into you at our mutural strtch , is it still available ?.

Hatter
 
Mark Anderson said:
Hi men ,

Back on subject , well sort of :) . The " pressure " thing dont quiet sit with me . Yes i can see it on perhaps the lower lower , which was well fished , but only in comparison to other bits of the Teme , but compared to bits of the kennet we have looked at that had bivvys on it , not so :rolleyes: . The bit me and Sue loved , and fished for 3 seasons was so lightly fished that overnight we used to just prop the rods up against a tree . On one occation we left the gear , cooking gear , and went off to look at antique shops after a good brekkie at the Talbot pub :eek: . In 3 seasons we only see 6 other anglers , and one of those was a friend we arranged to meet . That stretch is effected by what ever is wrong with the river , but bait / pressure / matches /guiding cant be laid at the door .

Neil , miss bumping into you at our mutural strtch , is it still available ?.

Hatter
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It is Mark, not fished it much of late though, but planning a trip soon. Of course if you really want to catch up you can always look at that vid the funny one, I won't make a charge.:D
However I do recall the Teme when it was probably over fished, but as to what influence that has on to-days demise is conjecture, but what do we all know anyway?
 
Has anyone given any thought to the possibility that the populations of barbel so many have enjoyed in past years might have been false and given only to being because of something else?
 
Be interesting to know when barbel first started showing in the river? They may having been there at the expense of other species
 
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