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Severn river trust

Interesting comment piece in Monday's Grauniad. Hits the nail firmly on the head in my opinion. We seem obsessed with expensive, end-of-pipe solutions to water and flood management in this country, and as many of the residents of Carlisle, Glenridding and Cockermouth will no doubt attest, far too often they don't work.

Do little, hide the evidence: the official neglect that caused these deadly floods | Opinion | The Guardian

I also read today that under our slightly surreal approach to national accounting, all the repairs to damage caused by the floods (building work, new carpets, new furniture, redecorating, and the cost of putting people up in hotels and temporary rented accommodation etc) actually adds to our GDP!
 
Exactly so Joe, that Guardian article reduces down to basically what I have been bleating on about all through this thread. Namely, do NOT trust the 'They's' of this world. They will lie, twist and turn and tell you absolutely anything to hide the 'head in the sand' failures they pontificate over.

The powers that be who rule over ANY aspect of our lives, from the government on down, are in the main intent only in lining their own nests and covering up anything that might embarrasses them, and burying anything that goes wrong on their watch. They paper over the cracks, give wonderful but meaningless speeches that still to this day somehow manage to con the general public into believing that they are doing a wonderful job.

The things that they claim to be doing, the stuff that really NEEDS doing, is actually never done. They keep up the pretense that they have their noses to the grindstone, that all their promises will be carried out during their time in charge, when in fact they are leaving the whole mess for the next lot in power....who will do exactly the same thing. Governments, hospital trusts, the social services, the newspaper industry, banks....think of ANY of the big noises in the political field, big business, civil servants, the priesthood, the police....anything....would you now trust any one of them? These whistle blowers and investigative journalists who keep exposing some of their dreadful wrongdoings must absolutely terrify them.

If you accept that there IS a big problem gnawing away at the heart of our society, then this 'fact sheet' that has been highly praised on this thread, the one with the title 'OTTERS-THE FACTS', is a fine example of the system in action. It is a paper brought out by the powers that be to answer all the criticisms leveled at them, to end the finger pointing and accusations brought by anglers and others. These accusations and questions obviously revolve around the perceived harm done by the releasing of otters that were bred and reared in cages....into the environment, at a time when the environment was least able to support them.

It seems that 'They' have done huge amounts of research, have collated all the evidence, listed each and every one of the surprisingly small number of otters involved, listed all the dates and places where these releases took place, explained away every ground for complaint, detailed why it was all a very fine idea, an absolutely necessary job very well done...great stuff. Smooth as silk, very believable, a PR job well done.

However, if you concentrate on it hard enough, and perhaps tie in some bits from other sources, there are some aspects of this paper that remain strangely unexplained. For instance, there were pockets of otters remaining, populations in areas where the farming chemicals that did so much damage to otters were not much used. By their own admission, once these dreadful chemicals were banned, the natural spread of otters in every direction, from the remaining original stock, was FAR stronger than they had expected. In fact it turned out to be so strong that once the truth of this became apparent, they ordered that the farming of these animals should stop....because it wasn't necessary.

Question (1)...Why did it take them SO many years to recognise this fact and act on it?

Question (2)...In view of this, does it not seem likely that in fact the whole project was never necessary in the first place, was actually all a pointless, damaging nonsense?

Question (3)...Had the otters return been allowed to take its own time, allowing the populations to build naturally, in line with available food, would we in fact have had none of the mayhem that followed the unnatural releases in East Anglia and Oxfordshire? Might we actually have had time to return our rivers to a state where they were far more able to sustain these extra mouths that had returned to the feeding bowl? If all the money, effort and manpower that went into the otter project...was instead dedicated to putting our rivers right, where might we be by now in that regard? Makes you wonder doesn't it?

If on the other hand you think this paper was squeaky clean, every word the absolute honest truth, not a single figure wrong, the dates of the start and cessation of the project correct, the number of people and animals involved spot on...then I am happy for you. No really, it's SO nice to be that trusting.

There is one fly in the ointment though. There is talk at the top of this 'fact sheet' relating to those who put it out, then at the very bottom you will read 'This is a partnership publication by'....Natural England, the EA and the AT. Now, all those bodies have had a battering to differing degrees during this whole otter release issue, and not without reason. The EA and Natural England are the two bodies (although under different names at that time) who started, encouraged, fully supported and at least partly financed the whole thing, and the AT came in with strong support when it came into existence later on. So, you would hardly expect this report to read in any other way, would you? Farcical? Sanitised? A great PR job? I guess quite possibly so.

Cheers, Dave.
 
That article is based upon the need to write an article rather than the need to know anything about what it contains!
 
Hi Damien, if you are implying that the author doesn't understand the subject matter then I think your mistaken. The author does have form on this subject. And to be fair the article is fully referenced. The point about the Liza is interesting don't you think?

Drowning in Money | George Monbiot

Have you read his book 'Feral'? If you live in the Lakes then you'd probably find it especially interesting.
 
Hi Damien, if you are implying that the author doesn't understand the subject matter then I think your mistaken. The author does have form on this subject. And to be fair the article is fully referenced. The point about the Liza is interesting don't you think?

Drowning in Money | George Monbiot

Have you read his book 'Feral'? If you live in the Lakes then you'd probably find it especially interesting.

No I don't really Joe, sorry. Where is the River Liza Joe?
 
Quick before another interesting thread descends into an otter bashing merry-go-round! :D

Certainly more people need to listen to George Monbiot, his rewilding vision makes so much sense.

https://youtu.be/SYdm6k1tg3Y

As if I would Rhys :D:D:D

Anyway, I think my laptop has run out of ink, so here is an embarrassingly short one for you, a question. WHY do you think the general public would rather listen to and trust a 'They', a politician ....well let's say David Cameron for instance, than they would George Monbiot? Why can they not work things out for themselves? After all that has happened, year after year, all the 'U' turns, all the lies, all the sickening patently false sincerity....why are Joe public, by and large, still taken in by the bull*h*t??

Cheers, Dave
 
Largely because what he says goes unnoticed and they make damn sure it stays that way.
I think this sentence from the article Joe posted is the most significant:

'A recent report by Animal Aid found that grouse estates in England, though they serve only the super-rich, receive some £37m of public money every year in the form of subsidies.'
Those 'poor farmers' eh?

Pretty much sums it up.
 
I guess you are right Rhys. Being continuously in the public eye is everything. Perhaps the true reason why the 'THEY's' of this world keep their heads stuck in the sand so much...is to keep their eye on the real people they have buried there.

Cheers, Dave.
 
As if I would Rhys :D:D:D

...why are Joe public, by and large, still taken in by the bull*h*t??

Cheers, Dave

Simply because they feel comfortable doing so I think Dave,..that's why they often read the same newspaper or rely on the same broadcaster to drip feed them the same propaganda.
When I was first persuaded to get my bum off my basket and do a bit for fishing clubs a colleague gave me some good advice which was ..don't get too gobby about things you know nought about, and never be afraid to ask questions...
Pity I didn't heed that advice more often!!
 
Simply because they feel comfortable doing so I think Dave,..that's why they often read the same newspaper or rely on the same broadcaster to drip feed them the same propaganda.
When I was first persuaded to get my bum off my basket and do a bit for fishing clubs a colleague gave me some good advice which was ..don't get too gobby about things you know nought about, and never be afraid to ask questions...
Pity I didn't heed that advice more often!!

I think you are not far off with your first thoughts there Dave, and I agree with your second paragraph too. We are all guilty of those sins, but I think that is frustration driven. Watching the constant 'groundhog day' effect, the same old, same old slowly destroying all we care for, sometimes gets too much.

Cheers, Dave.
 
Back on topic....as usual it comes down to the same old few, bringing politics and deeply in trenches views into threads. That's hypocrisy from myself :confused:?

Anyway...removing the weir if done right, with gradual, meandering glides and diversions could add some new fresh spawning grounds into the teme. Lawrence seems to think it would be this sudden drop in levels. But if he had input to the project the design it could become a big asset to the lower teme. It could give passage and excellent spawning.
 
I think its another example of wasted recourses on something that is not broken.
The fact is, fish stocks have reduced and that's not been caused by weirs that are hundreds of years old..
Not enough research is being carried out as to why fish stocks are reduced on many rivers, part of me thinks this is because the truth will not suite the agenda of many organisations..
 
Back on topic....as usual it comes down to the same old few, bringing politics and deeply in trenches views into threads. That's hypocrisy from myself :confused:?

Anyway...removing the weir if done right, with gradual, meandering glides and diversions could add some new fresh spawning grounds into the teme. Lawrence seems to think it would be this sudden drop in levels. But if he had input to the project the design it could become a big asset to the lower teme. It could give passage and excellent spawning.

Perhaps Lawrence thinks it would be this 'sudden drop in levels' because the SRT and the EA have said themselves that removing the weir will drop the water levels by 1.5 meters....it wasn't Lawrence who came up with that figure, it was them, he only passed that information on to us. Perhaps you can explain how removing a weir from a river will NOT cause a sudden drop in levels? If the weir is what is holding the water back, how can removing it NOT have that effect? It is really extremely difficult to follow your logic and understand where you are coming from.

By the way, we 'few' are not likely to get any view at all if we are 'deeply in trenches'....and we don't bring 'politics' into the thread, it is there already, it is politics that causes the problems that Lawrence is complaining about.

Cheers, Dave.
 
Perhaps Lawrence thinks it would be this 'sudden drop in levels' because the SRT and the EA have said themselves that removing the weir will drop the water levels by 1.5 meters....it wasn't Lawrence who came up with that figure, it was them, he only passed that information on to us. Perhaps you can explain how removing a weir from a river will NOT cause a sudden drop in levels? If the weir is what is holding the water back, how can removing it NOT have that effect? It is really extremely difficult to follow your logic and understand where you are coming from.

By the way, we 'few' are not likely to get any view at all if we are 'deeply in trenches'....and we don't bring 'politics' into the thread, it is there already, it is politics that causes the problems that Lawrence is complaining about.

Cheers, Dave.

The weir in question has a shallow drop and has eroded so not really holding back much water. Any drop in levels would not be that much of a problem, possibly, the Teme is a spate river in thre extreme, and I would think could cope. If the removal did allow better transit of all species, then that would be a positive.
Can't see how politics can be ignored in most things Dave, especially a scheme such as this, you might not agree though.
 
I'm fortunate to have fished the teme in its prime, but it was always false.

I have seen first hand how bad ea river work can be but I have also seen the opposite.

Again......the likes of DG in there own deeply, perhaps entrenched and deluded views of everything in the world cross over to angling??

Dave your knocking on a bit but don't put your sad world on me

:D I'll put a smiley as that is what you do.......:D
 
'Anyway...removing the weir if done right, with gradual, meandering glides and diversions could add some new fresh spawning grounds into the Teme'

Exactly Jason, the riffle and pool sequence is key to maintaining clean gravels! More clean gravels, more available places to succefully spawn. Purely from a barbel perspective, that's good news for the fish and the people that angle for them. The increased velocity will eventually clear out those horrible and sluggish canal like stretches, thus improve habitat, not downgrade it. If you read the report fully it is very clear why this river restoration project is a positive thing. As are all the other projects taking place up and down the country, have those rivers been reduced to a trickle?
Removing/lowering a weir doesn't mean the water is going to run away and the otters get to hunt all the barbel in 1ft of water. The floods downstream and droughts upstream are both connected by the same thing - bad land management.
 
The weir in question has a shallow drop and has eroded so not really holding back much water. Any drop in levels would not be that much of a problem, possibly, the Teme is a spate river in thre extreme, and I would think could cope. If the removal did allow better transit of all species, then that would be a positive.
Can't see how politics can be ignored in most things Dave, especially a scheme such as this, you might not agree though.

Hi Neil, how are you? Now, you have seen the weir in question, and say 'It has a shallow drop and has eroded, so not really holding back much water'. I can't really argue with that, because you have seen it and I haven't. However, that begs two rather large questions....if it is eroded and doesn't hold much water back, why do both the SRT AND the EA say that it's removal will cause the water levels to drop 1.5 meters? Secondly, if it's that low and eroded, why would they need to remove it anyway? A structure that small and damaged would surely not pose a a problem for any fish wanting to pass it. The barbel in my tiny river don't find them a problem, so I can't see why shad would be any different?

Also, you seem to be confused by what I said in my last post. You seem to be saying that I don't agree that politics is part of everything. However, it is in fact Jason Bean who critisised ME for 'Bringing politics into the thread'. I replied as you have done, that politics already IS involved in everything. I cant bring it in, it's a huge part of life...and this thread, like it or not.

Cheers, Dave.
 
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