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SAD REALISATION

Terry Harman said:
the fact that fisheries can obtain a licence to humanly remove otters is evidence in itself isn’t it ? there’s obviously a recognised problem or it wouldn’t be allowed
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That license is only obtainable for lakes, as captive environments as far as I’m aware? It’s a good precedent but could it be far to compare it to the ability to remove bats from your attic but not your garden. Is that a fair comparison?
 
Hi men

Me and Sue see it all first hand unfolding . When her beloved Windrush was hit we made a conscious decision to make the best of it fishing many river all over the country , trying to keep one step ahead of the spread of the otter . Someone on here commented about the amount of rivers we loved to fish , all of them had sight fishing in common , we found many fantastic bits of all the rivers , and fished them untill the numbers of sights and catches dropped . The Teme , Kennet etc was our home for as long as we could , but the time came , and the barbel rods are stacked away , and she does not bother to fish anymore.

And yes , right at the start of all this , just after the ileagl otter release in the upper Thames catchment we started to find chub and barbel carcase , otter damaged on the Windrush which was unsustainable , mirrored by the many small shallow rivers .

Hatter
 
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Well said Hatter:

but unfortunately there are anglers amongst us that still demand that science proves that otters have a detrimental effect on barbel populations, and will not accept any anecdotal evidence.

Otters without doubt have caused the total collapse of barbel populations on many rivers by the systematic predation and selective targeting of the fewer in number sexual mature female barbel, by the otter.

So we as barbel anglers end up continually battling with each other, the Wild Otter trust must wring their hands with glee as some anglers continue to believe otters aren't a problem, and other anglers ( like me) believe that the otter are a curse on our riverine and lakeside environments...but as i have said, its too late, the situation is worse today than what it was yesterday. I will never understand how any barbel angler can endorse the presence of any otters on any barbel river...
 
Terry Harman said:
the demise of the barbel population in the river ivel was down to one thing... not abstraction.. not pollution.... not signal cray fish it was down to the OTTER!! ......and no one will convince me of anything different and it happened in a very short space of time .... months
i don’t really know about other rivers but have my suspicions about the gt ouse and otters also take into account the dwindling eel population on many rivers that is why in my opinion the otter is taking big carp and barbel and pretty much anything else that breathes
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And let me guess that pre this supposed decimation by said otter, the barbel population in the Ivel was largely made up of big barbel?
 
Used to sea more mink on the Dearne than otters, the large exspanse of water that is the tidal trent has a fair few otters ,but plenty of other species to eat, wonder what will happen if the Wells catfish population explodes and predate,s the larger barbel.
 
Damian Kimmins said:
And let me guess that pre this supposed decimation by said otter, the barbel population in the Ivel was largely made up of big barbel?
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first point it wasn’t supposed.. it actually happened with many eye witness accounts and secondly there were barbel of all sizes in there... the larger barbel were taken first ..it’s a small river so i would imagine the larger fish were easier to catch ...and thirdly i can’t believe that people are still in denial about otters having a detrimental affect on our fisheries be it lakes .. rivers.... or even private koi ponds
 
Stephen Crowhurst said:
That license is only obtainable for lakes, as captive environments as far as I’m aware? It’s a good precedent but could it be far to compare it to the ability to remove bats from your attic but not your garden. Is that a fair comparison?
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yes it is a fair comparison.. i was making the point that anglers had done something about the massive otter problem in this country.. because if anglers had said nothing you wouldn’t even have that.. it’s just a small battle won in a big war that’s made even more difficult with otter denialism... i don’t need scientific evidence i have a perfectly good set of eyes
 
Terry Harman said:
yes it is a fair comparison.. i was making the point that anglers had done something about the massive otter problem in this country.. because if anglers had said nothing you wouldn’t even have that.. it’s just a small battle won in a big war that’s made even more difficult with otter denialism... i don’t need scientific evidence i have a perfectly good set of eyes
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I know what you mean but it’s not about us, it’s about using science to prove to others who refute what your saying to be proven wrong.
 
Lawrence Breakspear said:
Well said Hatter:

but unfortunately there are anglers amongst us that still demand that science proves that otters have a detrimental effect on barbel populations, and will not accept any anecdotal evidence.

Otters without doubt have caused the total collapse of barbel populations on many rivers by the systematic predation and selective targeting of the fewer in number sexual mature female barbel, by the otter.

So we as barbel anglers end up continually battling with each other, the Wild Otter trust must wring their hands with glee as some anglers continue to believe otters aren't a problem, and other anglers ( like me) believe that the otter are a curse on our riverine and lakeside environments...but as i have said, its too late, the situation is worse today than what it was yesterday. I will never understand how any barbel angler can endorse the presence of any otters on any barbel river...
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Ultimately its the actions of humans that led to the near extinction of otters . When they had almost disappeared, uncontrolled re introduction of otters led to an imbalance in the predator / prey situation, particularly on smaller rivers and fish populations suffered as a result . Culling of Otters will never be sanctioned .I fish for Barbel and lots of other species too , however I don't subscribe to the view that Otters should not be allowed on rivers that hold Barbel , that standpoint does anglers no favours . Otters are part of the eco system of our rivers, we humans have only ourselves to blame for our meddling with nature , whether its persecuting Otters to near extinction or re introducing them in an uncontrolled way .We will just have to live with the consequences of our actions.
 
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Mike Hodgkiss said:
Ultimately its the actions of humans that led to the near extinction of otters . When they had almost disappeared uncontrolled re introduction of otters led to an imbalance in the predator / prey situation particularly on smaller rivers and fish populations suffered as a result . Culling of Otters will never be sanctioned .I fish for Barbel and lots of other species too , however I don't subscribe to the view that Otters should not be allowed on rivers that hold Barbel , that standpoint does anglers no favours . Otters are part of the eco system of our rivers we humans have only ourselves to blame for our meddling with nature , whether its persecuting them to near extinction or re introducing them in an uncontrolled way .We will just have to live with consequences of our actions
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Well Mike, i suggest you prepare for the worse and hope for something that may not be as bad as you thought.
 
Lawrence ,With regard to Otters , I see no realistic solution to the current imbalance of predator/ prey that exists on some of our smaller rivers .It is lamentable that we humans cannot resist trying to impose our selfish ways on nature , we will just have to live with the consequences of our actions and perhaps learn from the experience .
 
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Mike Hodgkiss said:
Lawrence ,With regard to Otters , I see no realistic solution to the current imbalance of predator/ prey that exists on some of our smaller rivers .It is lamentable that we humans cannot resist trying to impose our selfish ways on nature , we will just have to live with the consequences of our actions and perhaps learn from the experience .
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Mike,
Not just small rivers mate, the Severn, compared to what was, is on its knees, as i have said, there isnt a barbel river now, anywhere, that isnt in decline...once the barbel have gone, the chub and pike soon follow...
 
Lawrence Breakspear said:
Well said Hatter:

but unfortunately there are anglers amongst us that still demand that science proves that otters have a detrimental effect on barbel populations, and will not accept any anecdotal evidence.

Otters without doubt have caused the total collapse of barbel populations on many rivers by the systematic predation and selective targeting of the fewer in number sexual mature female barbel, by the otter.

So we as barbel anglers end up continually battling with each other, the Wild Otter trust must wring their hands with glee as some anglers continue to believe otters aren't a problem, and other anglers ( like me) believe that the otter are a curse on our riverine and lakeside environments...but as i have said, its too late, the situation is worse today than what it was yesterday. I will never understand how any barbel angler can endorse the presence of any otters on any barbel river...
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As for para 1 - there may be a few but what most seem to say is we need much better evidence to be able for a case against otters to have any impact - a narrative of 'otters are killing lots of fish so should be culled' gets us nowhere, it is what otters do to survive and yes they may be picky about what they eat but that is not unusual.

Para 2 as Jo said an interesting hypothesis but Lawrence that is all it is, it needs to be proven to carry any weight; the idea of selective targetting endows the otter with an interesting power of choice, where is the evidence that it has such capacity? May be they take larger fish because they are easier to spot, slower in their movement because of size and age?

Para 3 - we need to remember that barbel are only indigenous to easterly flowing rivers in England; I suspect otters were on the Wye, Severn and Teme etc well before barbel were introduced...the barbel has no right over the otter in any moral framework i can think of, so yes we disagree with each other. Given you believe a cull is needed in the name of sport, how do you suggest this arguemnt could ever be won? Gamekeepers poison raptors in the name of sport - do you think they should do that?
 
Hi men ,

When the situation of the mass release in the upper Thames came to light , and our fishing was lost in the space of a year , I did not sit on the net moaning waiting for our Barbel groups and organisations to jump in , because most ignored it , or rather turned a blind eye . I emailed and phoned the EA direct , explaining what we were finding and experiencing on the Thames and more importantly to us the Windrush . After a bit of pass the parcel with lower minions the top guy told me , yes the otter will take the barbel , and we would have to find something else to fish for as it was their ambition to have otters in all areas . I did have a heated conversation on the phone , but that was really only for me to vent my frustration as I could see the future .
Now , rivers could recover to a balance where barbel fishing how me and Sue loved it will return , but iv got a feeling that at our age we will miss that boat 😉.

As a side subject , the population crash on our 3 stretches of the Windrush happened over quite a short period . The chub were also hit quite hard as the small pods of barbel had gone . As both species numbers fell off the cliff the crayfish population exploded , something we had not seen there in the decades we fished it . I chatted to a couple of Oxford university students doing a study for their degrees and they said any baited rig lasted only minutes before being " crayed " . We had a long chat about the river , and they said the only way to eradicate them was to "ark" a whole river , killing everything and start again, obviously not and option at all .

Hatter
 
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