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SAD REALISATION

Damian Kimmins said:
And let me guess that pre this supposed decimation by said otter, the barbel population in the Ivel was largely made up of big barbel?
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Once again wrong Damian, what you should have said is the ONLY barbel you heard of from the Ivel were big ones the small ones weren't reported same as on nearly all other rivers. I fished the Ivel , you didn't but once again you appear to be the expert on these things.
 
Paul Dowgill said:
As for para 1 - there may be a few but what most seem to say is we need much better evidence to be able for a case against otters to have any impact - a narrative of 'otters are killing lots of fish so should be culled' gets us nowhere, it is what otters do to survive and yes they may be picky about what they eat but that is not unusual.

Para 2 as Jo said an interesting hypothesis but Lawrence that is all it is, it needs to be proven to carry any weight; the idea of selective targetting endows the otter with an interesting power of choice, where is the evidence that it has such capacity? May be they take larger fish because they are easier to spot, slower in their movement because of size and age?

Para 3 - we need to remember that barbel are only indigenous to easterly flowing rivers in England; I suspect otters were on the Wye, Severn and Teme etc well before barbel were introduced...the barbel has no right over the otter in any moral framework i can think of, so yes we disagree with each other. Given you believe a cull is needed in the name of sport, how do you suggest this arguemnt could ever be won? Gamekeepers poison raptors in the name of sport - do you think they should do that?
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I have never suggested a cull, the otters Achilles heel is its short life span, so if orphaned ( due to road kills) otters are brought into otter sanctuaries they should not be re released into the wild, there should be a program of dog otters being trapped, sterilized and kept in captivity, it should be against the law to release otters without a license, the building of otter holts should be banned and criminalised and otters on still waters should trapped and taken to an otter sanctuary ....that would do for a start, no need to cull as yet ....i will put my tin hat on now
 
Lawrence Breakspear said:
I have never suggested a cull, the otters Achilles heel is its short life span, so if orphaned ( due to road kills) otters are brought into otter sanctuaries they should not be re released into the wild, there should be a program of dog otters being trapped, sterilized and kept in captivity, it should be against the law to release otters without a license, the building of otter holts should be banned and criminalised and otters on still waters should trapped and taken to an otter sanctuary ....that would do for a start, no need to cull as yet ....i will put my tin hat on now
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Lawrence I have no problem with the suggestions you have made, except perhaps sterilisation, if it is proven that otters are the significant cause of fish death on specific waters. The problem is the devastation has to happen for the proof required, given we do not have the evidence required - bit of a Catch 22!
 
Paul Dowgill said:
Lawrence I have no problem with the suggestions you have made, except perhaps sterilisation, if it is proven that otters are the significant cause of fish death on specific waters. The problem is the devastation has to happen for the proof required, given we do not have the evidence required - bit of a Catch 22!
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Does a farmer require scientific evidence to shoot a fox in his chicken coup?
 
Lawrence you know that is a silly comparison - foxes are not protected but otters are...and as for farmers having chicken coups you clearly have a pre-war view of the make up of modern day farms 😁
 
Paul Dowgill said:
Lawrence you know that is a silly comparison - foxes are not protected but otters are...and as for farmers having chicken coups you clearly have a pre-war view of the make up of modern day farms 😁
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Any foxes, moles and mink that you catch are protected under the Animal Welfare Act 2006. You can be jailed and fined up to £20,000 for causing unnecessary suffering to an animal.
 
Paul Dowgill said:
Lawrence you know that is a silly comparison - foxes are not protected but otters are...and as for farmers having chicken coups you clearly have a pre-war view of the make up of modern day farms 😁
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I know a farmer that has 300 free range chickens he keeps in pens overnight, over the last 5 years he has shot 2 foxes....i was born well after the second world finished. I am being logical thats all and stating facts...
 
I am trying to emphasise the ludicrous situation that surrounds the otter...but we aren't going solve anything here, we just end up bickering, so i am bowing out of this thread..tight lines everyone and happy Christmas.
 
Lawrence Breakspear said:
I could list many rivers like the Ivel Terry...

I was talking to a river keeper on the Windrush not so long ago, he looked after a stretch that once had double figured barbel, big chub, big pike and dace, the otters moved in and took the lot very quickly, in less than a year or so, they then decided to make part of the stretch a trout fly only water, because the coarse anglers didn't buy tickets any more, big rainbows and browns being were stocked, it wasn't long before the otters made in roads into the trout, so to keep an even balance between enough trout for fee paying anglers to fish for (not cheap) and the otters, he has to stock 30% more trout to basically buy the otters off, but as he said this from a financial point of view wasn't sustainable, now before some talk of pollution, loss of habitat for the fishes demise, this is a most beautiful stretch of river, with spawning shallows, gravel beds and supreme water quality, its the otters that have gone in and took the fish, he said for a period of time he would be greeted most mornings with the sight of big barbel, chub and pike with just their entrails and offal taken, not the actions of starving otters.
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I used to fish the Windrush regularly around Ducklington area. The barbel and chub weren't big in that stretch but they were plentiful. As were trout, both stockies and a very healthy population of good sized wild brownies. Spinning for trout often resulted in a two pound chub every other cast. Now it is a barren river other than what trout are stocked. And as Lawrence says, it is a river that appears to be in the same condition as 30 years ago, just without the fish. And yes, in recent years it was fairly common to see an otter. Like it or not, appearance of otters = disappearance of barbel.
 
Phil Nixon said:
Once again wrong Damian, what you should have said is the ONLY barbel you heard of from the Ivel were big ones the small ones weren't reported same as on nearly all other rivers. I fished the Ivel , you didn't but once again you appear to be the expert on these things.
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Kind of throws Lawrence's hypothesis about the otter's attentions being limited to taking big females out of the window though doesn't it?
I am sorry for this seeming lack of sympathy, but anglers who have for years slapped each other on their backs for the capture of a big barbel not realising that they were dealing with a living, breathing entity, that being the riverine environment, about which they cared little other than catching said barbel, only have themselves to blame by not looking at what constitutes a healthy river!
It should have been raising alarm bells years ago that the barbel as a species was facing a decline, as the numbers of smaller, younger fish were no longer being seen!!
 
I never said the otter's attentions were limited to big barbel, i said because of the ease of capture of a large female barbel with little protection of the shoal and with lesser numbers of female barbel, on the basis that all double figure barbel are female, the effect of an otter killing a large female barbel that produce 20,000 eggs per annum, is devastating to any barbel population, they target big females when they can, shoaled males are much to hard work, how many 4 pound barbel do you see with damaged tails..once again Mr Kimmins sees what he wants to see to feed his confrontational, antagonistic contribution to the discussion...
 
Being sexually mature at 7yrs, what size would you put a barbel at when that age?
 
For all those commenting on the otters being pre-occupied with big fish, use a bit of common sense! Obviously, a big barbel is not going to have the speed and agility of a smaller barbel and is therefore much easier to catch. The biggest of barbel are not going to present a problem size wise to an otter, so it's got nothing to do with barbel being able to make educated choices. The easiest prey will be the first caught, as in all of nature.
 
Terry Harman said:
damian you have been told twice there were smaller barbel in the ivel. but you have chosen to ignore it.. then yo bang on about what constitutes a healthy river..... have you ever actually seen the ivel ?... if not how can you comment on the rivers health
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Terry, good point,
I think what constitutes as a healthy river is a good example of one and the Windrush is a good example, where barbel are indigenous and where the barbel population has been destroyed by the otter....
 
Terry Harman said:
damian you have been told twice there were smaller barbel in the ivel. but you have chosen to ignore it.. then yo bang on about what constitutes a healthy river..... have you ever actually seen the ivel ?... if not how can you comment on the rivers health
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Nothing new there Terry!.
 
Damian Kimmins said:
Kind of throws Lawrence's hypothesis about the otter's attentions being limited to taking big females out of the window though doesn't it?
I am sorry for this seeming lack of sympathy, but anglers who have for years slapped each other on their backs for the capture of a big barbel not realising that they were dealing with a living, breathing entity, that being the riverine environment, about which they cared little other than catching said barbel, only have themselves to blame by not looking at what constitutes a healthy river!
It should have been raising alarm bells years ago that the barbel as a species was facing a decline, as the numbers of smaller, younger fish were no longer being seen!!
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You are generalising a bit here Damian. The Windrush was full of small young barbel, it was not uncommon to catch them under a pound, and I'm sure many rivers were the same. In fact, fish population apart, the Windrush still is a healthy river. Some rivers, e.g. the WA have admittedly been through the stage of general increases in average weight prior to a decline in numbers but the Upper Thames and it's tributaries saw a very rapid decline in barbel of all sizes, and other species too, especially the Windrush and Cherwell. That this coincided with the unauthorised release of otters cannot be considered coincidence, even to the most ardent otter lover.
 
how would people feel if we reintroduced
brown bears
lynx
wolves
bison
cave lions
wild boar
in the same fashion as otters were introduced.. without a bye or leave or a thought for anyone or anything ..just let loose... let’s introduce 20 brown bears and 200 wolves into the wye valley... if you don’t think that’s right then the question has to be asked... what makes the otter so special
 
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