SAD REALISATION

[Paul Dowgill]

how would people feel if we reintroduced
brown bears
lynx
wolves
bison
cave lions
wild boar
in the same fashion as otters were introduced.. without a bye or leave or a thought for anyone or anything ..just let loose... let’s introduce 20 brown bears and 200 wolves into the wye valley... if you don’t think that’s right then the question has to be asked... what makes the otter so special

Terry we have boar where i live - same scenario as otters they are like 'marmite' - I like them and no they haven't destroyed my 'garden' yet, may be because i have quite a few dogs so they stay away, but the deer have and that is something i have to live with for choosing this place or should i just shoot them because they are on my land!! As for lynx and wolves I hope they do return and if they do I suspect their re-introduction will be managed. European bison are being re-introduced in Kent in 2022 in a small planned way; cave lions died out at the end of the last Ice Age, bears probably in the Middle Ages - the environment both these need is now just not available, however we could create one. Interestingly, although allegedly a nation of animal lovers the British Isles, including Ireland, has 'lost' more large mammals than any other European country. We need to re-learn how to live with such wild animals and provide space for them. The introduction of the beaver local to me has been a popular move.

Reading this thread and many others, the issue for me comes down to one of narrow-mindedness and even selfishness - there are those who want otters at any cost and there are anglers who say no otters; IMO both factions are wrong. I love seeing the otters on the Wye, as I do the birdlife it all adds to the pleasure of angling, which for me is more than just catching fish... if we have anglers who are only interested in certain fish species to the detriment of other non-fish species that belong in that environment they do not present an image of angling that the public or politicians will ever support, and neither will a significant number of other anglers.

 

[Joe Winstanley]

how would people feel if we reintroduced
brown bears
lynx
wolves
bison
cave lions
wild boar
in the same fashion as otters were introduced.. without a bye or leave or a thought for anyone or anything ..just let loose... let’s introduce 20 brown bears and 200 wolves into the wye valley... if you don’t think that’s right then the question has to be asked... what makes the otter so special

Terry,

Otters were never extinct from the England as well you know. Despite the population being suppressed by organochlorines (used in seed dressings),
otters remained in the south-west, the Welsh borders (in the Wye, Severn, Teme and Dee systems), East Anglia, parts of south Cumbria and in the borders.

Reintroductions in the Thames and East Anglia were unnecessary because the population was naturally recovering anyway. It probably brought forward the barbel-otter conflict by perhaps a decade at most in some catchments, but on a national level the otter resurgence is down to a natural population recovery.

 

[Joe Winstanley]

also there have been subsequent restocking of barbel into the ivel perhaps you could explain why the ea would stock fish into an unhealthy polluted river

I can't comment on the Ivel specifically, but in answer to your question...because they are the EA! And stocking can help disguise a load of problems.

Ultimately restocking is an admission of failure isn't it?

 

[Joe Winstanley]

We aint got time, but if we did, where would the £30k come from to finance it?

I doubt 30k would scratch the surface to be honest Lawrence.

Angling is thought to be worth over £3bn to the economy, yet despite so many anglers being convinced that otters represent an existential threat to barbel (I don't count myself as one of them), yet they can't get their act together to fund something to protect the future of their sport. It's a bit of a
shit show isn't it?

I wonder how much dosh will be spent on new barbel rods, reels, end tackle this Xmas?

 

[Damian Kimmins]

You are generalising a bit here Damian. The Windrush was full of small young barbel, it was not uncommon to catch them under a pound, and I'm sure many rivers were the same. In fact, fish population apart, the Windrush still is a healthy river. Some rivers, e.g. the WA have admittedly been through the stage of general increases in average weight prior to a decline in numbers but the Upper Thames and it's tributaries saw a very rapid decline in barbel of all sizes, and other species too, especially the Windrush and Cherwell. That this coincided with the unauthorised release of otters cannot be considered coincidence, even to the most ardent otter lover.

There is a lot of generalising here really Alex.
There are many rivers in this country, of all manner of sources and sizes, but what mildly irritates me is that one can see an otter or perhaps the carcass of a barbel and on the strength of their catch rate of big barbel dwindling, attribute the reasons to all of those rivers catch rates dwindling down to the sighting of said otter. Whilst on reflection I would listen to those that fished the much smaller rivers who express that they had healthy fish populations and agree with them that the otter may well have had a devastating impact to the point they make, I just do not ascribe that theory to the bigger rivers, that should by and large be able to cope with the otter. On such rivers, an otter's energy expenditure, would just be to dear a cost for such pickings, and that is why I would put forward on such rivers that much more is at play for the disappearance of the smaller year classes.

Lawrence Brakspear put forward this hypothesis that the disappearance of big female barbel was responsible (he mentioned the otter being selective in this) for the barbels population collapse on rivers, namely I would imagine, the Severn, but whilst all big barbel may be female, not all female barbel are big, and would therefore say that that is also just conjecture at best!

 

[Terry Harman]

[QUOTE

I doubt 30k would scratch the surface to be honest Lawrence.

Angling is thought to be worth over £3bn to the economy, yet despite so many anglers being convinced that otters represent an existential threat to barbel (I don't count myself as one of them), yet they can't get their act together to fund something to protect the future of their sport. It's a bit of a
shit show isn't it?

I wonder how much dosh will be spent on new barbel rods, reels, end tackle this Xmas?

the Eco terrorists who released the otters without a thought for anything else should be made to pay for it.......joe you keep labelling it as otter v barbel it’s much bigger than that.... i’m gobsmacked that you don’t think the otter is a threat to barbel it’s already happened i can’t comment on the kennet or the bristol avon or the windrush or any other river that anglers have had fish stocks decimated .i’ve never seen them let alone fished them
but i can comment on the ivel and that was down to otters and otters alone and that threat was carried out with terrible consequences i also have suspicions about the gt ouse but once again i don’t know enough about that river to say 100%

 

[Joe Winstanley]

[QUOTE

the Eco terrorists who released the otters without a thought for anything else should be made to pay for it.......joe you keep labelling it as otter v barbel it’s much bigger than that

Who are these eco-terrorists? And where are all these secret otter farms Terry? Enlightenment me.

'...you keep labelling it as otter v barbel it’s much bigger than that'

I do? Personally I think the problems facing barbel so multi-faceted that trying to reduce the problem to one single factor is too simplistic. I suspect, that the situation with otter predation of barbel mirrors the situation found in other habitats and predator-prey relationships, and that is when an ecosystem is badly damaged and impacting on a species, then the impact of predation can be profound.

 

[Terry Harman]

Terry we have boar where i live - same scenario as otters they are like 'marmite' - I like them and no they haven't destroyed my 'garden' yet, may be because i have quite a few dogs so they stay away, but the deer have and that is something i have to live with for choosing this place or should i just shoot them because they are on my land!! As for lynx and wolves I hope they do return and if they do I suspect their re-introduction will be managed. European bison are being re-introduced in Kent in 2022 in a small planned way; cave lions died out at the end of the last Ice Age, bears probably in the Middle Ages - the environment both these need is now just not available, however we could create one. Interestingly, although allegedly a nation of animal lovers the British Isles, including Ireland, has 'lost' more large mammals than any other European country. We need to re-learn how to live with such wild animals and provide space for them. The introduction of the beaver local to me has been a popular move.

Reading this thread and many others, the issue for me comes down to one of narrow-mindedness and even selfishness - there are those who want otters at any cost and there are anglers who say no otters; IMO both factions are wrong. I love seeing the otters on the Wye, as I do the birdlife it all adds to the pleasure of angling, which for me is more than just catching fish... if we have anglers who are only interested in certain fish species to the detriment of other non-fish species that belong in that environment they do not present an image of angling that the public or politicians will ever support, and neither will a significant number of other anglers.

i have no beef with the otter it’s doing what it is supposed to do my beef is with the lunatics that thought it was ok to release a wild animal into an eco system no matter what the consequence
if i was to release brown bears into the wild i would be arrested

 

[Terry Harman]

Who are these eco-terrorists? And where are all these secret otter farms Terry? Enlightenment me.

'...you keep labelling it as otter v barbel it’s much bigger than that'

I do? Personally I think the problems facing barbel so multi-faceted that trying to reduce the problem to one single factor is too simplistic. I suspect, that the situation with otter predation of barbel mirrors the situation found in other habitats and predator-prey relationships, and that is when an ecosystem is badly damaged and impacting on a species, then the impact of predation can be profound.

when have i ever said anything about secret otter farms i’m talking about natural england and otter sanctuary,s there’s nothing secret about it.... in actual fact they are quite blatant and blasé about it perhaps you can point me in the direction of the research and studies done prior to the ren
introduction of the ottter

 

[Joe Winstanley]

damian you have been told twice there were smaller barbel in the ivel. but you have chosen to ignore it.. then yo bang on about what constitutes a healthy river..... have you ever actually seen the ivel ?... if not how can you comment on the rivers health

Just looked and seen that the Ivel is failing it's Water Framework Directive (WFD) Good ecological status assessments due to elevated levels of pesticides, sedimentation, phosphates, nitrates and faecal contamination. There aren't many rivers that fail WFD on all of those issues.

 

[Terry Harman]

I can't comment on the Ivel specifically, but in answer to your question...because they are the EA! And stocking can help disguise a load of problems.

Ultimately restocking is an admission of failure isn't it?

but if the restocking isn’t a failure then then it points to the otter ....until they come back

 

[Terry Harman]

Just looked and seen that the Ivel is failing it Water Framework Directive (WFD) Good ecological status assessments due to elevated levels of pesticides, sedimentation, phosphates, nitrates and faecal contamination. There aren't many rivers that fail WFD on of those issues.

and i take it all that happened in a couple of months did it ?

 

[Joe Winstanley]

and i take it all that happened in a couple of months did it ?

Highly unlikely, but I don't know.

I'm just pointing out that the notion that the EA would not undertake restocking if there was an issue with water quality is wrong.

 

[Robert West]

Just a general observation gents fishing club ticket on the Dorset stour yesterday with my one of my sons, we see 3 otters at muscliff people filming them on the far bank alerted us to there presents, and on the last 4 throop trips we’ve seen otters on beats 2&3.
otters have always been here and there throughout the country, there success now is ultimately down to us Clearing all the crap out of the water courses and improving our environment which it has, that fantastic for me as a angler but the trade off is other species thrive and that’s the price we pay.
Personally I’d much preferred to see a otter than a load of crap i used to see and I may add help to clear out.

 

[Paul Dowgill]

i have no beef with the otter it’s doing what it is supposed to do my beef is with the lunatics that thought it was ok to release a wild animal into an eco system no matter what the consequence
if i was to release brown bears into the wild i would be arrested

Yes you would be, if caught, because it is a species that is not currently freely roaming the UK...the problem is otters were already present, are the publics no 1 fave wild mammal and are a protected species, so those folk who tool it upon themselves, i take it, thought what they were doing was ok - a stupid decision no doubt but one we now have to live with, which brings us back to what is angling doing about it, alongside all the other problems with our water courses. The big philosophical question underpinning this is are we foremost conservationists or sportsmen, I am not sure it is possible to be both. I also happen to think the obsession with large barbel, which we are all guilty of to varying degrees, does not help but that is a whole different thread...

 

[Ady Brayshaw]

how would people feel if we reintroduced
brown bears
lynx
wolves
bison
cave lions
wild boar
in the same fashion as otters were introduced.. without a bye or leave or a thought for anyone or anything ..just let loose... let’s introduce 20 brown bears and 200 wolves into the wye valley... if you don’t think that’s right then the question has to be asked... what makes the otter so special

Terry it has happened . But not here. The Italians reintroduced (stocked) the brown bear in their territory in the Alps bordering Austria. The bears obviously wandered over the border into Austria. The bears started feeding on the local livestock (mainly sheep). So the Austrians culled the bears. Gun ownership is widespread in Austria. Hand guns are also sold in the local shops.

 

[Terry Harman]

Terry it has happened . But not here. The Italians reintroduced (stocked) the brown bear in their territory in the Alps bordering Austria. The bears obviously wandered over the border into Austria. The bears started feeding on the local livestock (mainly sheep). So the Austrians culled the bears. Gun ownership is widespread in Austria. Hand guns are also sold in the local shops.

sounds like salmon beat guides and otters

 

[Phil Nixon]

Just a general observation gents fishing club ticket on the Dorset stour yesterday with my one of my sons, we see 3 otters at muscliff people filming them on the far bank alerted us to there presents, and on the last 4 throop trips we’ve seen otters on beats 2&3.
otters have always been here and there throughout the country, there success now is ultimately down to us Clearing all the crap out of the water courses and improving our environment which it has, that fantastic for me as a angler but the trade off is other species thrive and that’s the price we pay.
Personally I’d much preferred to see a otter than a load of crap i used to see and I may add help to clear out.

As you say Robert, otters have always been on the Stour but were NEVER seen swimming past people without fear in the middle of the day and NEVER in the numbers now being seen.

 

[Ady Brayshaw]

Nobody really objects to Otters. It's just the indiscriminate stocking of animals into eco systems (small river and streams), that cannot support the numbers, that have been introduced. I've yet to see one on the tidal Trent, although I've no doubt that they exist and such a river could support the occasional Otter.

I have seen Otters on other rivers that are obviously introduced. They have no fear of human beings whatsoever.

It's these introductions. Probably illegal that are the problem. What are the 'authorites' doing about this? Not a lot. The EA would be very quick however, to prosecute a live baiting pike angler, that doesn't have a section 30 permit. Nobody in authority has been held to account as usual.

 

[Robert West]

As you say Robert, otters have always been on the Stour but were NEVER seen swimming past people without fear in the middle of the day and NEVER in the numbers now being seen.

Hi phil
your definitely right, they’ve got no fear of human activity at all, I had one almost sniffing my boot last week as it went past
On the stour, my son had one in front of him ducking and diving he filmed it on his phone.
He feels that some how we need to make them afraid of us, there becoming almost tame, as you say they have no fear.
Most animals run at the sight of us. I like to see a diverse eco system and I never thought I’d see a otter in the wild
But as I said to my son how do you scare a otter