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There's an amusing trend on here for people to belittle posts they don't like or disagree with by labelling the authors "keyboard warriors". Is not everyone who contributes one? Or is there some other method of writing that doesn't require a keyboard? More likely some people consider only their own views and choice of topics to be relevant and interesting while dismissing the views of others as merely the product of keyboard warriors.
 
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Keith Speer said:
Mr Whelan

Your statement infers that we should be held responsible for our actions; you have clearly not given this enough thought!

In our modern multicultural utopia we are constantly reminded that we should not EVER be responsible for our own actions, you only have to look to how our great legal system has geared up to ensuring that, should you have a fall or trip, you are honour bound to seek recompense from who ever you can find to blame!

In fact we are CONSTANTLY reminded via the media that we have a legal right to litigation for even the most innocuous of situations, this evening I myself have received two E-mails on this very subject, one of these pointed out 21 differing ways that I could claim compensation for an accident that has not even happened yet.

In fact it is now such a large industry that even suggesting that anyone should be responsible for their own actions is tantamount to TREASON, your views on self responsibility could (if they gained general approval) cause the whole blasted pack of cards to collapse, just where would we be then?

We would have no one to blame but ourselves!!



As for poaching, I too bailiff several sections of club water, this season I have captured quite a number of “Anglers†that were fishing without permission or the correct paperwork, of these, some were obviously of British decent, “trying it onâ€, but many were Eastern Europeans, several of these had enough English to accuse me of being “racist†but then did not know enough English to carry a conversation, but the words “thief†and “night lines†certainly caused a reaction!

In the main I don’t care where they come from, but I do care that they are trying to steal the club’s fish.

I don’t know if I am a “racist†or not, I did not think I was, but then again, I did not know that “thieves†were a race!!

Chris

I fear that you are right mate!

I wish I had a time machine:eek:

Tight lines.
Click to expand...
I don’t know if I am a “racist†or not, I did not think I was, but then again, I did not know that “thieves†were a race!!

your not, your a person doing a job.
 
Keith Speer said:
Mr Whelan

Your statement infers that we should be held responsible for our actions; you have clearly not given this enough thought!
Click to expand...

Keith, I would say Mr Speer, but it would beg the question why one would want to open a thread so... a bit surprised by that to be honest.

Jon Whelan said:
Again, fair comment & I concur with the statement that self responsibility is the key to addressing such evolving eventualities
Click to expand...

The above response was made in relation to Ian's point regarding real issues facing our rivers 'like abstraction, effluent protein skimming, control of released pollutants, and habitat destruction'. I responded by saying they were reasonable points incorporating the bigger picture asking Ian to expand on one point which then I expanded upon re treatment of ammonia, phosphorus & estrogen adding that we, as customers would certainly have to pay additional fees for the latter.

Ian outlined that 'we' are causing the problem as people in society & that 'we' can do something about this.

I will expand on my point - estrogen pollution, their effects on man & the environment & their removal from waste waters are not fully understood ('evolving eventualities'). If these are to be removed, then us, as the customer will have to pay for this very advanced form of waste water treatment ie we are responsible for these pollutants & humans, for their perpetuity, will have to deal ('self responsibility' by paying the cost for a desired outcome) with these in one way or another.

This small exchange of considerations was made solely within this context, not litigation nor a tolerant multicultural utopian state. How can you get from treatment of waste water to this...

Bit strange...
 
It was late when I read Keith's post and I struggled to see the relation of the points. Sometimes the obvious must escape me.

In principle I agree with the points made. The prevalence of poaching is more in the fore then it ever has been or is it just the internet that has made us (some) more aware...

Cheers, Jon

No offence meant Keith & apologies if so
 
No worries Jon.

The problem we have is that we live at a time when responsibility is something to shed, not embrace.
I am more than happy to take responsibility for my actions AND I am happy to pay for the consequences.




Chris Ponsford’s post highlights the problem rather nicely, for those old enough to remember, (and I am one) our rivers seemed in far better condition and certainly contained more fish in the past, than they do now, in fact I noticed that the quality of our river fishing seemed to take a dive from about 1983, this seems to have gotten worse after that and it has never recovered, those that are older than myself have told me that the rivers seemed to take a turn for the worse in about 1960, but for me the real change seemed to be in the early 1980’s.

I am not sure just what caused this but it certainly does not seem to be caused by industry, we lost most of our heavy industry from about 1979, from this time and over the next few years Great Britain became a market economy and industrial pollution took a down turn.
As I say I am not sure what caused our rivers to go west but I believe it is caused by our failure to treat our sewage properly.

In 1960 the population of the UK was 52.3million, in 1982 it was 55.9 million and in 2010 it was 62.2 million and it is estimated to be 70 million by 2026, this uplift in population is a double edged sword, as population increases so does abstraction AND so does the sewerage requirement.
The fact that our treatment of sewerage has failed to keep pace with our growing population is proved by the poor state of our rivers.
There are many other contributing factors:- Cormorants, Signal Crayfish and the common use of the birth control pill which caused rapid growth of Endocrine Disruptors in the river systems have all played a part but the fact remains we do not do enough to keep our rivers clean.

On the continent The Rhine was once the most polluted river in Europe, it runs through several countries and past some very large population centres, yet where it runs into Holland (and ultimately to the sea) it has a thriving and healthy population of all species of fish, in comparison our rivers are a mere shadow of what the Europeans have achieved.

Ultimately it comes down to money, we do not cover the cost of keeping our rivers clean, we need to take responsibility for this and pay more if the need arises, couple that with the fact that the EA has been a very poor servant, that “talks the talk†but fails completely to crawl, let alone “walk the walkâ€.

I am not sure who said it but I will use the quote anyway!

“A mark of civilisation is the distance man puts between himself and his faeces!â€

Chris and I are lucky, being old farts we can remember how it was, and we took advantage at the time, if you younger chaps want to experience the sort of quality angling that we had then, perhaps it is time for some serious “lobbyingâ€, you may have to pay a little more, but that is what happens when you take “responsibilityâ€!

I’m sure people like Chris and I will help too and remember as “old farts†we are used to taking “responsibility†for our own actions!

Tight lines.
 
Keith,
Whilst I dont doubt that what you say is true regarding some of the rivers you know it has to be said that many of the rivers oop ere in the frozen North are in far better nick than they were in 1983. In fact I am struggling to think of any that have declined.
 
I would second that Tony . From my direct experience, the Ouse , most of its tributaries and many other Yorks's rivers,are in much better all round shape, in terms of diversity of fish , mammal and bird population, than they were even 25 years ago . In the 60's and 70's most of the South and West Yorks rivers were basically open sewers totally devoid of all life , it's little short of amazing how they have been turned round .
 
Sorry Tony

I was mainly thinking of the rivers in the south!

This was not a swipe at you "norfen" blokes!

I would do that on a separate post!:)

Helps make the point really as the majority of the population increase has been in the midlands and “daan soufâ€!

I could list them but I think we all know where the problems lie.

The Thames regularly has 12 million cubic meters of un-treated swage pumped into it, via a Victorian sewage system.

So much for “Investment in the futureâ€, the EA have been blowing that old trumpet for so long I think they actually believe it.
After all if you say it enough times it must be true!

Of course every time they get captured by the media they trot out the same bit of film of a Salmon in The Thames.

And that bloody Salmon has been dead for 15 years!

Tight lines (if you fish up north that is, the only thing that makes your line tight in The Thames is lumps of floating "organic" matter!
 
Keith Speer said:
Sorry Tony

I was mainly thinking of the rivers in the south!

This was not a swipe at you "norfen" blokes!

I would do that on a separate post!:)

Helps make the point really as the majority of the population increase has been in the midlands and “daan soufâ€!

I could list them but I think we all know where the problems lie.

The Thames regularly has 12 million cubic meters of un-treated swage pumped into it, via a Victorian sewage system.

So much for “Investment in the futureâ€, the EA have been blowing that old trumpet for so long I think they actually believe it.
After all if you say it enough times it must be true!

Of course every time they get captured by the media they trot out the same bit of film of a Salmon in The Thames.

And that bloody Salmon has been dead for 15 years!

Tight lines (if you fish up north that is, the only thing that makes your line tight in The Thames is lumps of floating "organic" matter!
Click to expand...
that may stop with the super sewer regards the Thames.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-13992261
 
An interesting point about the rivers declining in the early 80s. I feel the Cherwell did go downhill around this time but seemed to pick up again in the late 80s and 90s. The decline since 2007, and on the Thames, has been dramatic as it has on a lot of rivers and there still remain a lot of questions to be answered about the damage caused by the huge floods that year.
 
Anthony,
No not this year, but since the 70's. I know folks who have done ok though.

Keith,
Certainly seems to be mostly the Thames catchment that folks moan about.

.
 
That's 'cause they're southerners Tone :D Hope you are keeping well mate.........

I can certainly echo your remarks with a view from the good side of the penines ;)

When I was growing up in the Seventies, the Rivers Croal, Irwell and Mersey were so polluted they reckoned you could be dead within minutes of falling in!! They stank too, always white effluent flowing out of various culverts.

One of the local streams was blue with the chemicals flowing out of the bleach works.........
 
Generally, those rivers polluted by industry back in the day have recovered, because there is no industry; whilst those rivers polluted by agriculture have declined as agriculture has grown more and more intensive.
In the Midlands I noted the EA laying claim to improvements in the Stour in one of it's press releases for instance. This was a river that ran down the bottom of the estate I was dragged up on. If you fell in when I was a kid you had to go to hospital. You could check out the weeks carpet colours further on down in Kidderminster by looking at what colour the river ran. No industry round the top of this river any more, that all went in the eighties and no carpet industry to speak of in Kidderminster, so the river now has all sorts of fish and has even had the odd salmon running up it from the Severn.

Whilst the Severn itself, which never had a huge amount of industry beside it has declined and most of it's smaller tributaries at the upper which had no industry have declined even further as agriculture has got more intensive, trees have been removed from the upper areas and liming no longer takes place. Rivers such as the Leam, which once was thick with trout, chub and roach no have next to nothing in it and after the floods some years ago ripped out the remaining weed growth has declined rapidly in fly life. Even the Warks Avon, which now holds quite a head of barbel, which were not there at all when I was a lad, has declined for many other species (and the boaters want to dredge it up to Stratford, which should just about finish it off).

Unlike industry, agriculture is something that even the maddest of governments won't get rid of entirely (as they have done with most industry) so getting agricultural practise to work with, rather than against the rivers seems a priority to me.
 
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