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[Nathan Walter]

David,



Most poachers on the local waters round here are of the Travelling variety, certainly not Eastern European, although there are many thousands of them working in the area. In fact there is a huge fruit farm on the banks of the Lower Loddon, have fished it many, many times and never seen or heard of any of the 500 or so workers fishing the river........

Well unfortunately Ian, I have witnessed it. I have only fished here the once and saw something being thrown out into mid river. It looked to me that it was for the intentions of fishing. On contacting my fishing companion and member of said fishery we wandered down stream to investigate. The banks were lined with EE's and there were numerous balls of fairly heavy twine in numerous swims. We both came to the same conclusion and kicked a few of these into the river. Some appeared to be attached to bankside vegetation. Any thoughts I had of joining were soon quashed by such a disappointing sight.

It's great to have positive views of these issues and be able to say that they must be given the benefit of the doubt, but this often leaves those with such views, blind to what goes on around them.

Just because we are not happy with the current poaching situation and feel greatly concerned about the evidence supporting the poaching going on by EEs, does not make us all bigots and racists. It does mean we are thoroughly peed off by what's happening and concerned for the future, especially when so many other issues are also threatening our rivers.

I get fed up with people banging the 'racist drum' every time anyone dares mention that some EEs are poaching. I'm sure those carrying out the poaching smile at their defenders and carrying on, knowing that we have already lost the battle to stop them.

 

[Wayne Glossop]

I get fed up with people banging the 'racist drum' every time anyone dares mention that some EEs are poaching. I'm sure those carrying out the poaching smile at their defenders and carrying on, knowing that we have already lost the battle to stop them.

Good reply mate I agree 100%, it's not about the nationality of the poachers it's the poaching business we are all on about, fact of the matter is the poachers are all EE's because it's there way of life in there country, poaching is a crime in the U.K and they should be prosecuted!!! I'm sure if it was a way of life for them to rob banks in there country they wouldn't be allowed to get away with it here the thing is not many will do anything or say anything to the poaches me personally I will because that's me!!! It's Down to the right authorities to stop wasting money And clamp down on the poachers imo
Regards

 

[Alex Gowney]

I think the battle against poachers has been lost before it's even started. Whatever people think of EEs getting the flak the fact is that the authorities will probably assume that they are the main culprits, simply because it's in their culture. And in that word lies the problem. The country is, and has been for years, in a straight jacket of political correctness. Anyone who dares to voice concern over the practises of other cultures, be they EEs, Muslims, Gypsies or whatever, is instantly shouted down. As Nathan said, it doesn't take much to provoke the accusation of being a racist bigot. The powers that be are far more concerned at being seen to be critical of "diverse" cultures than they are about the fate of a few coarse fish. Some people, like Wayne, may well get involved personally but the reality is that not many will or can do that for various reasons.
It's not just about EEs, the EA, anglers etc, the general trend towards multi-culturalism and "embracing" what we find disagreeable or odd is central to a lot of todays frustrations.

 

[Pete Marshall]

Are you suggesting that in some way EE's or whoever are not prosecuted when caught illegally fishing because of multi culturalism?

This would rather go against the evidence of the prosecutions for illegal fishing shown on the EA site, where people with names that could be seen as Eastern european are rather over represented.

Seems to me that if people are caught then they are prosecuted irrespective of their particular background. Catching them is the issue.

Making a report to the authorities when illegal fishing is witnessed is the first step.

I have seen absolutely no evidence of any one on this site arguing that people should be able to break the law because they happen to come form Eastern Europe.

The only evidence of Political Correctness I have seen here, is the Politically Correct attitude that catch and release is the only acceptable form of fishing, a very politically correct attitude if ever I heard one.

 

[Andy Millichamp]

The only evidence of Political Correctness I have seen here, is the Politically Correct attitude that catch and release is the only acceptable form of fishing, a very politically correct attitude if ever I heard one.

That's an interesting point. Several barbel anglers were surprised that when I caught an out-of-season salmon (on a pellet!) I didn't kill it and take it home. Apart from that being illegal, Salmon are rarer and their lifecycle more fragile than barbel, yet it is somehow acceptable to kill salmon but not barbel. Seems hypocritical to me.

Someone mentioned the EE's were (allegedly) putting the barbel alive into bags and allowing them to suffocate, as though this were a terrible thing. Yet most (all?) of us eat cod and haddock which are dragged up from the depths, often crushed under the weight of other fish and then allowed to suffocate. But I don't see anyone boycotting their local chippy.

In some European countries, including I believe Germany, catch-and-release is illegal, and yet most British anglers fishing over there routinely ignore the law, in the same way that some EEs ignore the law here. Again, is that not hypocritical?

 

[Ian Crook]

To add, poaching, by definition is illegal, taking fish from a stretch of river not run by a club which has rules stating "no fish are to be taken" is not provided: a) the angler does not exceed the bag limit set forth by the EA (which replaced local byelaws):

Fish removal by rod and line

New byelaws are in place to protect coarse fish, eel and shad fisheries.
On rivers

On any given day, you may only remove:

one pike of up to 65 cm;
two grayling of 30–38 cm;
up to a total of 15 small fish of up to 20 cm of the following native species: barbel; chub; common bream; common carp; crucian carp; dace; perch; pike; roach; rudd; silver bream; smelt; and tench.

Fish are measured from the tip of the snout to the fork of the tail.

If you remove any more fish than this, you are committing an offence and risk a substantial fine.

You can still take:

minor’ or ‘tiddler’ species, such as gudgeon;
non-native species;
ornamental varieties of native species – such as ghost or koi carp.

Please remember that you will still need the written permission of the owner or club to remove fish from privately owned waters.
On stillwaters

You may only remove fish with the written permission of the owner or club.

You will normally have a day ticket or permit, on which the fishery rules are often printed. These rules normally state the numbers and types of fish you can remove. If in doubt, ask the owner. If there is no obvious owner to ask for permission, you are not allowed to remove any fish.

If you take any fish without permission you are committing an offence and risk a substantial fine.
Eel and shad

You must return any eel (Anguilla anguilla*) or Allis or Twaite shad you catch from any water in England and Wales.

This includes estuaries and inshore waters, to a distance of six nautical miles.

* Does not include conger eel (Conger conger).

and; b) he has the permission of the owner/club


For the record, I hate this as much as every other angler!!

 

[Ian Crook]

Well unfortunately Ian, I have witnessed it. I have only fished here the once and saw something being thrown out into mid river. It looked to me that it was for the intentions of fishing. On contacting my fishing companion and member of said fishery we wandered down stream to investigate. The banks were lined with EE's and there were numerous balls of fairly heavy twine in numerous swims. We both came to the same conclusion and kicked a few of these into the river. Some appeared to be attached to bankside vegetation. Any thoughts I had of joining were soon quashed by such a disappointing sight.

Wow, that does indeed surprise and sadden me Nathan, did Alan report it to the club? John Baker is the fisheries manager down there and would come down very hard on them. I actually fished it for 3 seasons, 3 or 4 days/nights per week and never saw any of them on the bank or saw lines despite looking, maybe a new batch had arrived the season you fished it.....

 

[Pete Marshall]

Yet most (all?) of us eat cod and haddock which are dragged up from the depths, often crushed under the weight of other fish and then allowed to suffocate. But I don't see anyone boycotting their local chippy.

Actually Ian, I and many other do not eat Cod. Not because of the way they are killed, but because of conservation reasons. I also do not eat farmed Salmon and many other species of fish that are threatened by over fishing, or in the case of farmed salmon, cause direct damage to the environment.

I cannot see any problem in killing and eating what you catch yourself as long as this is both legal and there is a population density that can support this. Most rivers do not have population densities of wild fish that can support anglers taking fish. This includes wild brown trout, that are often taken by both course and game anglers (not just EE's) on the river I mainly fish.

I am a bailiff myself and have direct experience of poaching. So far all the people I have had to deal with had English accents as far as I could tell. However I was not particular interested in where they came from, only where they would be going to.

 

[David Gauntlett]

I must say I do find this all very odd. On the three short stretches of the very small river my club runs (average 15/20 feet across, 18"/24"deep) people with distinctly 'European' accents are found poaching on an almost daily basis. We frequently find set lines attached to bank side bushes, stakes...even vegetation.We have had groups spinning from boats, groups having fish barbecues on the banks, we have notice boards torn down and padlocks on gates vandalised on a regular basis....you name it, this tiny, rather under stocked river (with NO salmon and only occasional escapee trout) has seen it all.

On the other hand....SOME of the people on vastly bigger, much more heavily stocked rivers, where poaching must surely be far more profitable, are claiming that they have never seen it....it doesn't happen....and if it does, it certainly isn't EE's who are responsible. We have Pete Marshall, who is a respected angler and river bailiff himself saying that most of the illegal anglers he deals with are distinctly British....but at the same time stating that, in his words, "The prosecutions for illegal fishing shown on the EA site, where people with names that could be seen as Eastern European....are rather over represented." (I hasten to add that Pete is probably not quoting from EA figures for his area in particular here)

So all in all, try as I may, I really cannot make out what on earth is going on. We have honest folk on both sides stating vastly differing experiences. To (perhaps unkindly) suggest that some of this weird variation in our perception of the 'situation' as being down to overblown 'political correctness' causes a hell of a hullabaloo. So...what would those offended by such accusations suggest is the reason for this undeniably odd gulf in our experiences? Are some seriously suggesting that all the EE related incidents we have discussed, on this thread and many others....and just about everywhere else you care to look....'just didn't happen'?

I would seriously love to know....

Cheers, Dave.

 

[Stephen Bond]

BTW the issue of poaching is in both the Angler's Mail and also the Angling Times this week.

http://www.anglersmail.co.uk/

7 Point Plan to tackle poaching

THE Angling Trust has launched a ‘Seven Point Plan’ to tackle poaching and fish theft in English waters after barrage of incidents in recent years.

Even last week, we revealed three Bulgarians were fined a total of £726 for poaching on the River Wye by Hereford Magistrates Court.

The sport’s governing body have acted as there have been widespread reports of poaching and large numbers of fish being taken illegally by individuals and even criminal gangs throughout the country.

The plan includes including appointing two acclimatized Polish anglers who love the English way of fishing of a part-time basis to educate their peers.

For more on this amazing story, buy this week’s Angler’s Mail magazine, which includes an exclusive â€cut out and keep†guide to help YOU stop poaching and illegal fish-taking near YOU.

The Trust’s 7 point plan is published below in full.

7 POINT PLAN TO TACKLE POACHING

Building Bridges

The Trust has appointed two members of staff to work with member clubs and fisheries to address illegal fishing in parts of the South West and the East of England. These pilot projects have sent messages to foreign national anglers in their own language to explain the rules of fishing in this country. Farmers employing foreign temporary workers are also being made aware of the problem and being asked to help combat it. Many of these anglers simply don’t understand the rules. Once educated, they are prepared to catch and release their fish and can become active and committed members of clubs and good customers of commercial fisheries. More details on Building Bridges HERE. Posters are available for download HERE.

Crimestoppers

The Angling Trust has helped to fund and promote the Crimestoppers initiative (along with CEFAS, the Environment Agency and others) which provides a confidential freephone number 0800 555111 for anglers, clubs and fisheries to report illegal fishing activity, thefts and illegal fish movements. Free posters are available for clubs and fisheries to help raise awareness of this number.

Legal Advice to Members

The Angling Trust’s legal arm (Fish Legal) has provided a fact sheet for member clubs, fisheries and riparian owners about their legal position in the event of poaching or theft and what they should do if poaching occurs on their waters. Fish Legal members should call 01568 620447 to request a copy.

Advice to Police

Fish Legal has collaborated with the National Wildlife Crime Unit, a special police task force, to raise awareness of the offence of poaching within regional police forces. This move is in response to members raising concerns that responses by local police to reported instances of poaching have been unsatisfactory and as a result it is unclear who people should contact when poaching occurred.




Volunteer Bailiffs

The Angling Trust is working with the Environment Agency to develop a pilot scheme to recruit volunteers from angling clubs who can work alongside warranted officers from the EA to provide intelligence and check anglers’ rod licences, so that the EA can focus its expert resources on tackling serious poachers and criminal activity. 




Poacher Watch Website

The Trust is developing a website for anglers to report poaching, in a similar way to its Cormorant Watch site (www.cormorantwatch.org). Funding is being sought for this project from the angling trade.

Political Pressure

The Trust has raised the issue of enforcement of fisheries laws and byelaws at the highest levels of the Environment Agency and Marine Management Organisation. There are widespread concerns among anglers that the investigation and prosecution of poachers is decreasing, when the problem is increasing.



http://www.gofishing.co.uk/Angling-Times/Section/News--Catches/General-News/Trust-ramps-up-anti-poaching-measures/

Trust ramps up anti-poaching measures
By Angling Times
General News
18 October 2011 11:36

The Angling Trust has this week launched a seven-point plan to tackle the ever-growing problem of poaching from English waters.

The sport’s governing body is set to ramp up a number of initiatives, ranging from the establishment of a new ‘Poacher Watch’ website for reporting fish theft - in a similar way to its Cormorant Watch site - through to a pilot scheme that will allow voluntary bailiffing by angling club members alongside Environment Agency officers.

The plan also includes furthering the recently-launched Building Bridges programme, under which the Trust has appointed two members of staff to work with member clubs and fisheries to address illegal fishing in parts of the South West and the East of England, as well as collaborating with the National Wildlife Crime Unit, a special police task force, to raise awareness of the offence of poaching within regional police forces.

For the full story, plus reaction, see today’s Angling Times.

 

[Robert Beal]

Wow the Angling trust , anglers mail and angling times become racist bigots !!!!!!!!!

Oh hang no they know its a genuine problem and aint got their heads up their arses or buried in the sand !!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Pete Marshall]

I can't see where I have suggested that Eastern Europeans fishing unlicensed or taking fish without permission is not a problem. As I have said they are certainly over represented in the number of prosecution for such offences compared to people with "English" sounding names.

I have just suggested that from personal experience poaching occurs on many rivers by people who are not Eastern European.

Organised poaching operates on certain rivers regularly by groups who long pre date any eastern Europeans being here in any numbers.
On other rivers (such as the Teme), locals and what are now called "travelling folk" have poached for many years.

We also have a problem on some rivers where English anglers regularly fish on private and club waters without either EA licenses or club membership. This is the number one problem where I bailiff.

The last three anglers I have had to remove from the water I bailiff were all English (as far as I could tell from the various old English swearwords they used) and in two cases in possession of day tickets for a nearby water but had decided to wade across a river, walk past several signs in order to fish our bit illegally.

The person I reported for illegally fishing during the close season on the Teme was also English and had a sticker in his car indicating membership of a well known angling club. He was fishing right in amongst spawning barbel.

The litter and barbecues on the Teme may also be a result of Eastern Europeans, I don't know as I haven't seen the people actually causing the mess. However the fly tipping on several car parks was not carried out by Eastern Europeans, but by well organised local gangs, some of whom have now been prosecuted.

Personally I couldn't care less where somebody originates from, if they poach, leave rubbish and damage the river I will do my best to see they are prosecuted. If all the Eastern Europeans go back to Poland or wherever do you think there will be no more poaching or rubbish left on the bank? Scum bags are scum bags and here in the Midlands we seem to have plenty of scum bags of our own without the need to import them.

 

[David Gauntlett]

That all sounds pretty fair to me Pete, I see nothing there I could disagree with. In fact, all I would do would be to add a further point to your last two comments, to whit.....

If all the Eastern Europeans go back to Poland or wherever do you think there will be no more poaching or rubbish left on the bank? On the other hand, If all the Eastern Europeans did go home, do you not think there would be a fair chance that poaching or rubbish left on the bank would be DRAMATICALLY reduced? Scum bags are scum bags and here in the Midlands we seem to have plenty of scum bags of our own without the need to import them.

Fair point and reasonable addition Pete?

Of course it is not all Eastern Europeans committing these acts, and it would be ridiculous to claim it was. However....I don't recall anyone ever claiming that it was....certainly I didn't. My whole point can be summed up perfectly by your last comment...." Scum bags are scum bags and here in the Midlands we seem to have plenty of scum bags of our own without the need to import them"

Well said sir....and as far as I can tell, the same seems true of the rest of the country.

Cheers, Dave.

 

[Alex Gowney]

Are you suggesting that in some way EE's or whoever are not prosecuted when caught illegally fishing because of multi culturalism?

This would rather go against the evidence of the prosecutions for illegal fishing shown on the EA site, where people with names that could be seen as Eastern european are rather over represented.

Seems to me that if people are caught then they are prosecuted irrespective of their particular background. Catching them is the issue.

Making a report to the authorities when illegal fishing is witnessed is the first step.

I have seen absolutely no evidence of any one on this site arguing that people should be able to break the law because they happen to come form Eastern Europe.

The only evidence of Political Correctness I have seen here, is the Politically Correct attitude that catch and release is the only acceptable form of fishing, a very politically correct attitude if ever I heard one.

No, I am not suggesting they won't get prosecuted. What I am suggesting, and you can agree or disagree, is there is a general reluctance of authorities in many walks of life to act against minoritiy groups for fear of being labelled racist or accused of failing to embrace their culture. I was not commenting on political correctness "here" as you put it, I was commenting on it in general. I don't know what your occupation is but I work in a profession where PC is God and I know the damage and frustration it can cause. I certainly didn't suggest people on BFW were recommending EEs don't face prosecution because of their culture.

 

[Pete Marshall]

This may well be the case in many walks of life, however I have seen no evidence of the EA to not prosecute EE's caught illegally fishing, if you have any evidence that this is the case then I would suggest you take it up with the EA and your MP. I have taken up with my own MP the failure of the EA to act against certain organisations destroying the rivers, in these cases English farmers and companies as I believe there has been a tendency of the EA to try and be too friendly and forget its regulatory role.

As far as poaching goes, this is not usually a case of authorities prosecution as it usually, on rivers at least, is a civil matter for the landowner /riparian owner. angling club. These are difficult cases to take up, but many clubs certainly do their best in my experience, with limited resources to take civil proceedings against offenders. I can't imagine that any angling club I know of would have the slightest regard for political correctness in any way and the nationality of the offender wouldn't come into it. Once again if you have evidence that the nationality of an offender has been a factor in whether a club takes action or not it would be a good idea to take it up with the club concerned.

I would say it would be illegal to have regard to an offenders ethnic or cultural group in making a decision about prosecution as it would have no bearing on the matter what so ever.

 

[Alex Gowney]

You may well have seen no evidence of anyone being reluctant to prosecute because of someones nationality and neither have I. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The point I am trying to make (not too successfully it seems) is that there is a culture in this country at the moment of making allowances for minority groups that would not be allowed to others. I know this is a fishing forum but angling is not immune to this train of thought. I have no evidence of EEs being allowed off the hook because of where they come from, neither did I imply that I have. What we all have evidence of is a general trend towards minorities being shown more tolerance in many walks of life than others. And it would be naive to assume that angling is immune to this.

 

[Ian Grant]

Dave, having read all your posts, i can't help but agree with every single word you've said Mate !

Ian.

 

[Chris Ponsford]

I was going to try and say something lucid,informative and accurate,that said ,there's little point as BFWs keyboard warriors will no doubt pontificate from their PCs ,and impart yet more gems of vast knowledge of the sport on all thing Barbel.

Fortunately I enjoy other species and Sea and Game Fishing on a regular basis,which is just as well as many of the small rivers are barely worth bothering with now,and now the big rivers are going the same way.

Of course,I am still happy ,my rose tinted specs and tolerance of the great new Britain tells me how great everything is ,and how lucky I am to enjoy the multi cultural experience .

Just as well my camera pics give me memories of the way we were ,and the times that were my good old days ,oh deep joy .

Barbel Fishing World ,but not as we know it Jim,enjoy the scraps whils't they last.

 

[Keith Speer]

Mr Whelan

Your statement infers that we should be held responsible for our actions; you have clearly not given this enough thought!

In our modern multicultural utopia we are constantly reminded that we should not EVER be responsible for our own actions, you only have to look to how our great legal system has geared up to ensuring that, should you have a fall or trip, you are honour bound to seek recompense from who ever you can find to blame!

In fact we are CONSTANTLY reminded via the media that we have a legal right to litigation for even the most innocuous of situations, this evening I myself have received two E-mails on this very subject, one of these pointed out 21 differing ways that I could claim compensation for an accident that has not even happened yet.

In fact it is now such a large industry that even suggesting that anyone should be responsible for their own actions is tantamount to TREASON, your views on self responsibility could (if they gained general approval) cause the whole blasted pack of cards to collapse, just where would we be then?

We would have no one to blame but ourselves!!



As for poaching, I too bailiff several sections of club water, this season I have captured quite a number of “Anglers†that were fishing without permission or the correct paperwork, of these, some were obviously of British decent, “trying it onâ€, but many were Eastern Europeans, several of these had enough English to accuse me of being “racist†but then did not know enough English to carry a conversation, but the words “thief†and “night lines†certainly caused a reaction!

In the main I don’t care where they come from, but I do care that they are trying to steal the club’s fish.

I don’t know if I am a “racist†or not, I did not think I was, but then again, I did not know that “thieves†were a race!!

Chris

I fear that you are right mate!

I wish I had a time machine

Tight lines.

 

[Craig Wood]

Watch the Matt Hayes program where he fishes some lakes in Eastern Europe, think it was Poland..His conclusion after many times fishing there was there were hardly any fish left due to most of the fish had been taken for the food pot..Education on conservation is the way forward but you can only educate those that want to be educated..Unfortunately many EE's and many other ethnic groups come to this country and dont want to try and live as BRITISH citizens they just carry on the same way as they did in their own country which beggars the question as to why they come here in the first place, well apart from INSTANT benefits and housing etc....RACIST i am not, but a realist i most definately am.