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Otters

Sorry your right chris..Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion..Nothing personal paul im sure your an alright bloke..:)
 
You have just very publicly hung yourself out to dry, Craig, and that's a pity. If you try to mix it with highly intelligent, very experienced, flexibly minded adults and fishers again in the future, make sure that you are one yourself first.
 
Otters living on a "prolific Welsh River" and Otters living on a river where Salmon stocks are at danger are two completely different things.
I have no problem with Otters on rivers where the fish density and distribution is sustainable, but on the Hampshire Avon it is a problem.

I would have thought your many years experience as a fisherman catching such magnificent fish would have told you that predation of 100 salmon from a river which only produced 50-60 fish to anglers last season is a major cause of concern.

It is also likely that your figure of 12 Otters on the Avon is hugely inaccurate. Last season 2 Otters were found killed by car on the roadside and I personally witnessed a mother and 2 cubs earlier this year on the same stretch.

I am an all round coarse and game angler and am definitely not trying to demonize Otters.

My main point is that it is clearly irresponsible to reintroduce Otters onto a waterway which needs all the help it can get. Especially after so much time, effort and money has been invested by so many individuals to improve fish stocks on the Avon.
 
Please, steady on chaps. This is understandingly a very emotive issue & has been tried to be reconciled here with some logical points of view. I, in part, understand the 'gutting' feeling of knowing otters are in some of my favourite stretches of the Trent, but regardless have to rationalise this with the fact that the super sized specimens, of all species, should not really exist in the numbers they do.

Even though we live in a controlled man made environment, all species & dare I say it, including humans, should have their population checked by some natural form be it predation, disease, competition for a resource, etc..

For a fit environment there has to be diversity & if that means the inclusion of otters then so be it. If there is no predation, where is there room for the concept of 'survival of the fittest?' Can one truly say that the fittest of specimens are longer, fatter individuals? Drawing a parallel with our species; if we were only to preferentially protect & select obese seven foot individuals for continuation of our race, how long would we last? A similar parallel can be identified by the selective breeding of Simo carp - massive growth rates, organ deformation, shorter life span & pretty damn ugly to boot.

Fish will adapt to existing or new pressures in a given environment & those without adaptive evolutionary traits will not perpetuate their genes. This equally applies to otters. Any predator will only exist in an environment whereby energy expended on obtaining food is exceeded by a given food resource. Once the food source is depleted they will move on & eventually their numbers will be checked. The niche once exploited by over sized unfit individuals will be replaced by smaller, fitter individuals of the same species, albeit in smaller numbers, at the benefit of other species within similar or different trophic levels.

Presently, society on the whole are preferentially protecting the limited populations of otters. This, we have to accept in principle for a duration of time. We as anglers stand no chance in trying to change public opinion unless we all demonstrate some form of objectivity & can produce a rational argument for the eventual control of the otter population. These rational objections with the benefit of time whereby the effect of increased otter populations can be unequivocally, empirically proven will then be taken more seriously in due course. How long this will be & what alterations in fresh water ecology that take place I cannot say & wish I could.

But in the meantime, I will try & not let myself be upset knowing that my protected, artificial sport is being spoilt by a mammal that has an equal right to exist in the (not our) environment. It hurts, but I have to be pragmatic.

Surely this equally applies to all aspects of our life - we cannot have it all our way all the time. If one feels disgruntled about an issue, surely we are capable of stepping back from it quietly, for a while, considering a reasonable, holistic, articulate stance rather than emotively jumping up & down.

I can understand the emotive points of view, but unless we are more mature than the usual drivel written or aired by the majority of anglers, society will relegate our sport to a position similar to that of our 'blood sport' counterparts.
 
Jon Whelan said:
... society will relegate our sport to a position similar to that of our 'blood sport' counterparts.
Click to expand...


The very thing I have been saying in both public and private ad infinitum for over a decade. Tedious for me as well as for its recipients, but sadly necessary.
 

Colin made the point;

Just one point that I'll leave you with;
Otters are indigenous to the rivers Wye, Severn, Teme, Stour, Hamps Warks and Bristol Avons etc etc, and barbel ain't...

True enough but both species are indigenous to the UK and that's what counts. It's hardly the fault of the barbel that it got introduced into other rivers and they don't have the option of travelling overland to "naturally" colonise another river as otters do.
 
Special case, self-pleading (and, I suspect, self-pitying) stuff from us golden boys simply won't wash in the unfishy wide world, Alex. Sorry.
 
Personally I can accept otters on my home river the Wye, it's big enough and has enough fish in it to cope with the extra predation. Where it starts to get a little top heavy in predators is when you consider the extra pressures caused by cormorants, goosanders and those that choose to eat all that they can catch/net/longline etc. Those are not the otter's fault, they just happen to have a shared interest.

I do object to the sudden increase in otters that are apparently seeking to empty numerous stillwaters of their carp. This is probably a bigger problem that on the some of the rivers where they are expected to live.

Also Paul (especially), don't be too hard on those that are vocal and emotive on the subject. We are always talking about the RSPB and how they go about their business and how we should emulate them and hopefully one day have the on our side. Well have you ever heard a bird person talk about the loss of ducklings from a pond and how the demonic pike should be slaughtered? What do they expect, a world knee deep in mallards? No, of course not, it's just human nature coming through and protecting the underdog no matter how impractical.

We all want something different from our angling, it is again human nature to expect things to constantly improve and we are now facing a very sharp backward step in fishing. Its no wonder we get excitable.

None of us know for sure what the answer is or where it will all lead, all conservation is just educated guess work.
 
Alex Gowney said:

Colin made the point;

Just one point that I'll leave you with;
Otters are indigenous to the rivers Wye, Severn, Teme, Stour, Hamps Warks and Bristol Avons etc etc, and barbel ain't...

True enough but both species are indigenous to the UK and that's what counts. It's hardly the fault of the barbel that it got introduced into other rivers and they don't have the option of travelling overland to "naturally" colonise another river as otters do.
Click to expand...

And at the risk of sounding like I'm happy with the presence of otters in any river I fish, cos I ain't....
The re-introduction of otters to certain areas, which has consiquently led to a population explosion of the species is hardly the otters fault.

So lets go round in endless circles.... And its not the fault of the signal crayfish that they've been introduced to our waterway either, so should we be making an exception for them to, as they must be fifth, sixth or higher generation by now.
Oh no they effect your fishing!!

This is not directed at you Alex, rather anglers as a whole.
Sitting on the river bank, spot a Kingfisher, marvellous striking blues and oranges, darts into your swim nips out a second later with a 3 inch fish, oh its only a minnow you tell yourself.

Later the same day you see a Heron, spook it out of the water, as it soars overhead you say to yourself, damned bloody thing,,,, at least its not going to eat that 4 oz roach.

Then horror of horrors you spot an otter leaving the river with a fish of about a pound, huh f*****g b****y c*****g thing stealing 'my fish', and obviously said fish must of been either a dace or barbel, why?
Cos otters only target specimen fish and/or barbel!

What a bunch or hypocritical blinkered fools anglers really are. Care about the environment, my arse!
On their terms only.

Yes I to am a hypocrit at times, I spose. Happily fishing for Thames carp last season, guess thats proof but why.....
Simple, there isn't anything else worth fishing for in the bits I go to.
Otters to blame, get real, the real problem is the lack of fish in our rivers before Tarker and his sibblings arrived.

My opinion; No otter numbers shouldn't have been raised by re-introduction BUT they have and legal culls are never going to happen so what of our rivers.
Maybe NE were lying to me when I was told that they were led to believe our rivers are in a good state, perhaps the baffoons at the EA mislead them in the hope of making it look like they were successful in being the guardians of our waterways.
Who knows?
 
Ah, but a "backward step" after a very brief, unsustainable, almost certainly unreal lurch forward. Not being hard on my fellow fishers, just being brutally realistic about what goes in the wild world ... fisheries are not glorified garden ponds, true anglers not fishkeepers...
 
Paul i do conceed that you are right on some matters..Your right about no matter how loud us anglers shout, nothing will change the general publics view on otters..I guess us anglers have no choice but to accept that many big fish of all kinds will be killed by otters..Im just abit concerned that once the bigger female fish are killed it will have a big affect on future fish stocks especially in rivers where fish stocks are already not as they used to be due to various reasons..But as people have said otters are here to stay and yes probably there will be some balance in numbers over the years,unfortunately many big female fish of all species will be lost during this period of balance and take years to come back if at all..
Regards Craig.
 
Thought that I'd leave you all with something from the Telegraph, as I really have had a bellyful of otters and endless argument. Feel free to carry on in my absence (in otters threads, for about, oh, ten minutes). So with Elvis Presley's "Return To Sender" booming out...


PS - Bit of a parting shot without fear of return fire, I feel, from Salter who is about to disappear to Australia and New Zealand until early summer 2011.




Otters could decimate fish stocks, warns Government

Otters are in danger of decimating fish stocks in British rivers, according to the government's spokesman on angling.


Telegraph, 29 / 30 Apr 2010


Many fisheries and angling clubs have gone out of business after losing their stock of carp and barbel fish after a programme to re-introduce otters to the wild.

Critics say there is not enough food in our waterways to sustain their booming numbers, which is why they have turned to fisheries and lakes.

Now Martin Salter MP, Labour's angling spokesman, has called for otters to be temporarily removed from the wild to allow our rivers to replenish themselves with fish.

He accused conservationists of acting irresponsibly by releasing otters without checking that there was enough food to sustain them.

He said: "We have had conservationists running around releasing otters having taken no time to check there was a sufficient food source for them.

"You can't blame the otter for raiding fisheries. They have been released into an environment where there is an imbalance between predator and prey.

"Their numbers have been artificially boosted by a release programme that took no notice of the available food source.

"I don't want to see otters being culled but perhaps the Wildlife Trust could rehome these otters or put them back in sanctuaries until such time when the rivers and waterways can sustain themselves.

"I want to avoid the situation where people are calling for a cull on otters."

Mr Salter is also calling for greater numbers of cormorants - another predator for coarse fish - to be shot.

He added: "There's been too much pussyfooting around on the issue of predation of inland fisheries by both cormorants and otters. It is irresponsible and unfair to allow certain species to wreak havoc on fish stocks due to an unsustainable lack of natural food sources."

Otters are Britain's largest wild carnivore but their numbers plummeted in the 1950s due largely to pollution from pesticides and habitat loss.

Within 20 years they had completely disappeared from parts of the country.

But since otter hunting was banned in 1978 and organochlorine pesticides phased out they have successfully recolonised many of our waterways.

At the same time, the numbers of certain fish stocks like eel, have plummeted, and fisheries have proved a rich hunting ground for them.

One venue alone lost 80,000 pounds worth of carp to the creatures.

Under the Wildlife and Countryside Act it is an offence to kill an otter, punishable by a £5,000 fine or six months in prison.

Paul Wilkinson, of the Wildlife Trusts, said: "There are plenty of food sources available in the natural environment for otters and there is evidence that some of the most renowned river fisheries also support stable otter populations.

"Most anglers welcome their return to our rivers and streams as they are one of the best indicators of a healthy river ecosystem.

"We are liaising with the EA and others to develop solutions which will not compromise the return of this wonderful animal to our watercourses."
 
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It has to be said, the government's spokesman on angling Martin Salter MP is quite clearly angling, angling for votes!!

He'll have to be careful sitting on his happy medium fence, cos if he gets shoved he may fall off.:D:D:D
 
Clarification: Martin Salter is no longer an MP - he stood down as MP for Reading West (chose to retire, not forced out by any scandal), leaving another candidate to contest the seat. So, no longer a Government anything........
 
Colin, I was not blaming otters or ignoring the obvious that, like it or not, it's more distressing to hear of or see a big barbel get nailed by an otter than a minnow get eaten by a kingfisher. That's how it is, but not the otters fault. I was pointing out that barbel cannot help being where they are any more than otters can and neither species can claim (or have claimed on their behalf) more rights to exist purely on the strength of how long they have colonised a river. I am inclined to stick up for the barbel because I am an angler and while it's plain culling otters won't happen that doesn't mean we all have to applaud their presence on our rivers.
 
Alex Gowney said:
I am inclined to stick up for the barbel because I am an angler and while it's plain culling otters won't happen that doesn't mean we all have to applaud their presence on our rivers.
Click to expand...
Fair point, but there is another way of looking at this and putting the presence of Otters to the benefit of angling. Otters as we all know are really popular animals. They need clean well stocked rivers to exist. In order to improve rivers in this country lots of cash must be spent. A lot more than we pay in license fees. This means getting cash from the taxpayer. The taxpayer is not to keen on forking out to support minority activities like angling, particularity when anglers want to get rid of an animal that the public love. However they may be happier to pass over their hard earned cash to save otters. The only way to save otters is for them to have good rivers, more fish recruitment, polluters dealt with, agricultural practise in line with good environment practise and abstraction controlled.
It is for this reason that I am not about to start campaigning against Otters, not out of fear of being unpopular, personally I couldn't care what a load of ignorant people think of me, but in order to help create a balanced environment that will support otters, fish and all the other life forms that depend on the rivers.
Hunting with hounds was not banned because it is "cruel" or because anybody gives a damn about foxes (if they did they might slow down a bit on country lanes) and it certainly wasn't banned as a conservation measure. It was banned because hunting in England, particularity, is seen as (usually correctly) as the preserve of a load of toffee nosed arrogant idiots. Hunting would never be banned in countries where large numbers of people do it, or know some one who does it (examples being the Scandinavian countries, Alaska, Canada) all countries with a far better record on the environment...well perhaps not Alaska!...than ours. Angling cannot allow itself to be perceived in the same way. We are presently (and in most cases correctly) thought of as rather sad, harmless eccentrics doing nobody any real harm. Loads of camouflaged clad, otter murderers tramping around the countryside in the name of anglers will soon put paid to that image. Angling won't be banned (although even that could happen, I never thought that any country would be barmy enough to invade Afghanistan again after the failures of the Persian Empire,the British Empire, the Russian Empire, the French and the Soviet Union...but then it happens) but it will be marginalised and who will give a damn for the rivers then?
 
Pete, a good reasoned response - especially the liking angler to sad, harmless eccentrics doing no harm. Anglers which understandingly, at the heat of the moment, espousing their views of harming otters, etc., will not do us any favours - even though most of it's venting innocent frustration.

For info (whether correct I am not sure) - I used to fish Neville Fickling's Messingham carp syndicate which was adjacent to a nature reserve with an occasional otter presence. He positively encouraged members to bring their dogs whilst fishing to keep a dog smell around the lakes. The thought was that otters innately feared canines & this would deter them from venturing too close.

I appreciate that river systems are somewhat longer & less frequented than the instance above but I was wondering whether there are any other practical measures that could be taken? A long shot I acknowledge.

Cheers, Jon
 
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