otters

[Alex Gowney]

Lets also remember that barbel are not indigenous to many rivers in the uk and were introduced by man into ecosystems that already had otter populations. If that's not interfering with an ecosystem then I don't know what is.
I think we have to accept that otters are in our rivers where they belong and that they will make their presence felt as the apex predator. As Neil has just said, it is not in their interest to wipe out their prey and I suspect that otters will starve to death or, more likely, move on before they have eaten every barbel in a river. Until the otters returned we were living with an unbalanced ecosystem, with no apex predators, except perhaps for the cormorants and mink which came along to plug the gap.
The only situation that would see me arguing for the control of otters would be if they were competing with us for food, and they aren't.

cheers

Mike, I did concede that some fish introductions may be seen as interfering with an eco system. But let's not lose sight of the fact that barbel are indigenous to the UK and don't have the option of moving from river to river under their own steam like otters do. You are entitled to your opinion and if you wish otters to be allowed to wipe out fisheries without considering any form of control then it's your right to have that opinion. I am sure the otter trusts would be in full agreement with you because they seem unable to view the issue from any point but their own.

 

[Mike Webb]

. You are entitled to your opinion and if you wish otters to be allowed to wipe out fisheries without considering any form of control then it's your right to have that opinion.QUOTE]

Thanks Alex. It's gracious of you to allow me an opinion, even if you do attach a condition designed to try to make me look like the enemy of fish and anglers everywhere, which of course I'm not.

 

[Jim Foxall]

Essentially there are two camps concerning otters. With the introduction of otters there may come about a sustainable otter/fish equilibrium. The danger is the experiment of wide ranging otter introductions proceeds without any pause for thought or periodic assessment. If, at some point it were recognised that fish stocks had been significantly depleted, then it is too late. My feelings are that any otter introductions should be on a regulated basis and the effects monitored very carefully. It is not the otter's fault if they do chomp through specimen barbel, they do what comes nauturally to them. Like many things a degree of control may be required.

Although probably on the anti-otter side of the fence, I do try and take a balanced view. The reason for my anti-otter stance is that I feel that fish stocks are under attack from too many sides, cormorants being a major contributor. I have literally seen a trout fishery cleared of fish by these birds. If otters prove to be as successful as cormorants, then there is a problem. Finally, and forgive me for mentioning this again. The "Twitchers" on Rutland Water thought the cormorants were wonderful whilst they were scoffing trout, but as soon as they saw the damage that cormorants were doing to nestlings of other species, the scales dropped from their eyes and the cormorants were not quite the darlings originally perceived. Otters could prove to be a parallel case.

 

[John Charlton]

Essentially there are two camps concerning otters. With the introduction of otters there may come about a sustainable otter/fish equilibrium. The danger is the experiment of wide ranging otter introductions proceeds without any pause for thought or periodic assessment. If, at some point it were recognised that fish stocks had been significantly depleted, then it is too late. My feelings are that any otter introductions should be on a regulated basis and the effects monitored very carefully. It is not the otter's fault if they do chomp through specimen barbel, they do what comes nauturally to them. Like many things a degree of control may be required.

Although probably on the anti-otter side of the fence, I do try and take a balanced view. The reason for my anti-otter stance is that I feel that fish stocks are under attack from too many sides, cormorants being a major contributor. I have literally seen a trout fishery cleared of fish by these birds. If otters prove to be as successful as cormorants, then there is a problem. Finally, and forgive me for mentioning this again. The "Twitchers" on Rutland Water thought the cormorants were wonderful whilst they were scoffing trout, but as soon as they saw the damage that cormorants were doing to nestlings of other species, the scales dropped from their eyes and the cormorants were not quite the darlings originally perceived. Otters could prove to be a parallel case.

what jim says^^^^^^great post

 

[Adrian Williams]

I found the answer to cormorants in Dartmouth.

Left a bit

FIRE!!!!!

 

[Andrew Tams]

I assume as this site is Barbel Fishing World - the barbel anglers online shop and forums 1 or 2 of us may have a slightly bias view on this subject but I hear what you say Mike but the issue for me isn’t otters in our rivers or them eating fish it is the morons who reintroduced them into an ecosystem so different then the last time they were in the wild. These same morons will continue to do this unless we point out their huge error.

Free and easy food in all the carp/commercial waters has allowed said intros to breed far too quickly and grow strong while also overcome their biggest fear Man. Now all the carp waters have suss this out and otter fences are common place the otters are finding their way into the rivers in ever increasing numbers and as they got used to the easy kills of the carp/bream etc they are killing more fish than they need as they will eat only the organs (given a choice).

Thus the point isn’t otters it is the “so called” self proclaim experts who have not only allowed too many otters into the wild but did it without any thought for the rest of nature and otters for that matter.

I see otters all the time and they are a great sight BUT we shouldn’t be seeing them all the time and the fact we are is worrying me. It will take 20 years to sort this out and some action is needed now with at least a independent study and some proper advice from the EA with all of nature considered not just fishing and otters.

 

[Alex Gowney]

. You are entitled to your opinion and if you wish otters to be allowed to wipe out fisheries without considering any form of control then it's your right to have that opinion.QUOTE]

Thanks Alex. It's gracious of you to allow me an opinion, even if you do attach a condition designed to try to make me look like the enemy of fish and anglers everywhere, which of course I'm not.

Not attaching any conditions Mike. You said the only circumstances you would consider supporting otter control is if they compete with us for food. As this thread is primarily about the damage they can do to fisheries, then presumably, whatever the severity of that damage, you do not support any form of control. I don't think for one minute this view makes you the enemy of anglers or fish, you are merely expressing an opinion, as am I.

 

[Alex Gowney]

Good posts from Jim and Andrew. As both point out, there are otter supporters and otter sceptics on here but for all the differing views one thing is obvious. A lot of BFW posters take a much more balanced view of the issue than the otter trusts or EA. When did any of them concede that maybe things weren't turning out quite as they visualised and maybe some research would have been a good idea? They don't, because they couldn't give a toss. Either about the fish (except to feed otters) or the anglers, and in particular people like Chris Turnbull who put so much effort in restoring the Wensum only to see it decimated because some half wits decided it would be a good idea to release some otters in the area.
As Andrew say's, it's not the otters fault, it's the imbeciles who release them without doing their homework first. Maybe culling some of these idiots would be a better idea.

 

[Stuart Prescott]

I assume as this site is Barbel Fishing World - the barbel anglers online shop and forums 1 or 2 of us may have a slightly bias view on this subject but I hear what you say Mike but the issue for me isn’t otters in our rivers or them eating fish it is the morons who reintroduced them into an ecosystem so different then the last time they were in the wild. These same morons will continue to do this unless we point out their huge error.

Free and easy food in all the carp/commercial waters has allowed said intros to breed far too quickly and grow strong while also overcome their biggest fear Man. Now all the carp waters have suss this out and otter fences are common place the otters are finding their way into the rivers in ever increasing numbers and as they got used to the easy kills of the carp/bream etc they are killing more fish than they need as they will eat only the organs (given a choice).

Thus the point isn’t otters it is the “so called†self proclaim experts who have not only allowed too many otters into the wild but did it without any thought for the rest of nature and otters for that matter.

I see otters all the time and they are a great sight BUT we shouldn’t be seeing them all the time and the fact we are is worrying me. It will take 20 years to sort this out and some action is needed now with at least a independent study and some proper advice from the EA with all of nature considered not just fishing and otters.

completley agree


im still stunned at some comments on here from the pro otter angler ......

for example , it will help us as anglers as only the fittest will survive !!!! ffs

tell you what , lets start injecting the human population with TB or influenza , that should sort out the men from the boys !!

 

[Adrian Williams]

completley agree


im still stunned at some comments on here from the pro otter angler ......

for example , it will help us as anglers as only the fittest will survive !!!! ffs

tell you what , lets start injecting the human population with TB or influenza , that should sort out the men from the boys !!

If you can ignore the emotional side there is a good argument for letting nature take its course a little more with the human population rather than go out of our way as much as we do to save every life. It would certainly strengthen the gene pool while taking allot of pressure off the nhs and going some way towards reducing the population growth.

In the great scheme of things this otter debate is not even a sideshow. Species come and go and have always done, this present reintroduction is only putting off the inevitable which will see otters disappear from this country. Unfortunately though it has come at a time when the fishing for our chosen species was at a peak and it's only human nature for us to be a bit peeved about it. I believe when the dust settles a balance will be resumed between prey and predator just as 6 years on from the floods which saw tons of lower Severn bream in the fields that population has re-established itself again.

Nature has managed for millions of years without man's intervention and will continue long after these strange naked apes have gone, in the mean time survival of the fittest is a great way of ensuring the continued health of any species and in the areas where barbel are wiped out the native species will return.

 

[John Young]

I am with Des on this one

Anglers call for cull of otters over fish havoc - Telegraph

 

[John Young]

I am also with Trevor West and John Wilson

Top-flight anglers have their say on otter predation | Coarse Fisheries News | Angling Times | Gofishing UK

 

[John Young]

Oh and I agree with Chris Turnbull as well

you might notlike the photos in this one...

Death on the Wensum

 

[Alex Gowney]

I am with Des on this one

Anglers call for cull of otters over fish havoc - Telegraph

I am very glad I didn't waste any money joining the Angling Trust. We just have another PC organisation afraid to voice an unpalatable truth. When Graham Scholey can come out with a comment like "anglers will just have to get used to catching fewer big fish" it strongly suggests a lack of compromise or any intention whatsoever to address the problem. And for all those who try to minimise the problem, try fishing the Windrush now. Ten years ago a wonderfully diverse fishery, full of (smallish) barbel, chub, big dace, roach, perch and pike. All you get now are trout, stocked by the fly fishing clubs, though for how much longer is anyones guess. The Windrush was also a natural fishery, apart from the stocked trout all the fish wee indigenous including some very big wild brownies. Now it's almost empty.

Still, probably nothing to do with the reintroduction of otters into the Upper Thames area....

 

[Neil Smart]

completley agree


im still stunned at some comments on here from the pro otter angler ......

for example , it will help us as anglers as only the fittest will survive !!!! ffs

tell you what , lets start injecting the human population with TB or influenza , that should sort out the men from the boys !!

Completely missing the point I was making, preds have a positive function in the wild, ensuring the survival of species. I am sure you have read Darwin.

Barbel are a wild fish..still, why then would you want to molly cuddle them?

They are not Carp in a managed fishery that is why I fish for them and not Carp. THINK about the consequences if Barbel did not have a natural predator?

Got it yet

Your analogy regarding vaccinations of humans is an odd one...we are talking fish here ...wild fish.


ADAPT TO SURVIVE!!!! sorry to shout but some are not listening.

 

[Adrian Williams]

Fancy a pint Neil? I'm sure you and I could find plenty to talk about.

 

[Neil Smart]

I am very glad I didn't waste any money joining the Angling Trust. We just have another PC organisation afraid to voice an unpalatable truth. When Graham Scholey can come out with a comment like "anglers will just have to get used to catching fewer big fish" it strongly suggests a lack of compromise or any intention whatsoever to address the problem. And for all those who try to minimise the problem, try fishing the Windrush now. Ten years ago a wonderfully diverse fishery, full of (smallish) barbel, chub, big dace, roach, perch and pike. All you get now are trout, stocked by the fly fishing clubs, though for how much longer is anyones guess. The Windrush was also a natural fishery, apart from the stocked trout all the fish wee indigenous including some very big wild brownies. Now it's almost empty.

Still, probably nothing to do with the reintroduction of otters into the Upper Thames area....

Did the fly club introduce Rainbows?
I know the Windrush and also am aware of the problems on the river, however I also know that the rivers suffers from extremely low summer levels, which to me is the real problem here and not the Otter perhaps?
If it was the Otter I doubt very much the Otter would contribute to wiping out all fish, hardly a sensible thing for it to do to ensure a longer term future. Of course if there is a lack of prey than the Otter will not breed, so perhaps it is unfair to place all the blame on Otter.

 

[Neil Smart]

I am also with Trevor West and John Wilson

Top-flight anglers have their say on otter predation | Coarse Fisheries News | Angling Times | Gofishing UK

Knee jerk stuff for the comics?

Wouldn't go down too well with the readers having an opinion that was something they did not want to here would it?

 

[Alex Gowney]

Did the fly club introduce Rainbows?
I know the Windrush and also am aware of the problems on the river, however I also know that the rivers suffers from extremely low summer levels, which to me is the real problem here and not the Otter perhaps?
If it was the Otter I doubt very much the Otter would contribute to wiping out all fish, hardly a sensible thing for it to do to ensure a longer term future. Of course if there is a lack of prey than the Otter will not breed, so perhaps it is unfair to place all the blame on Otter.

A few years ago it was rainbows Neil, more recently brownies. The low levels were a lot worse ten years ago than recently I can assure you, and there were plenty of fish. The fish population, barbel and chub in particular, has plummeted since otters have become more common. That is a fact Neil and not a theory, I used to fish the river regularly. From the footbridge at the start of the Newlands stretch right up to the quarry entrance you would see at least 20 barbel just by walking the banks. Spinning for trout would produce almost a chub a cast. Now you never see a barbel and many spinning trips two years ago turned up one chub about 8oz. The fish have vanished since the otters arrived. Make of that what you will.

 

[Alex Gowney]

Completely missing the point I was making, preds have a positive function in the wild, ensuring the survival of species. I am sure you have read Darwin.

Barbel are a wild fish..still, why then would you want to molly cuddle them?

They are not Carp in a managed fishery that is why I fish for them and not Carp. THINK about the consequences if Barbel did not have a natural predator?

Got it yet

Your analogy regarding vaccinations of humans is an odd one...we are talking fish here ...wild fish.


ADAPT TO SURVIVE!!!! sorry to shout but some are not listening.

Barbel surely have a natural predator in the pike? According to some, all otters used to eat was eels so their status as the barbels primary natural predator must be pretty recent.