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otters

Chris i knew cormorants were bad news and stab at fish they cant possibly eat but i never realised they were that bad..talk about delusions of grandeur
 
If you have a look on the link below, you will see a couple of similar with captive koi and other species. The bacteria eats through the bone rays from the outer edge inwards and the damaged part of the fin hangs down, membrane splits and part of the fin drops off leaving an L shape or other, top or bottom, sometimes both. It is a type of finrot but not the norm to where the membrane is eaten away between the rays leaving the bone rays intact like spines. I have pics somewhere of the progression of it happening on barbel. The damaged fins can also re-generate if the fish is still in its growing stages and not too old to where they will only heal and not re-generate. A dab of Friars Balsam kills the bacteria instantly in its tracks and helps and quickens the healing process and re-generation.Click the link Tail fin damaged
 
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Robert Richbell said:
Chris i knew cormorants were bad news and stab at fish they cant possibly eat but i never realised they were that bad..talk about delusions of grandeur
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Cormorants don't stab, herons stab. Cormorants have a rounded hook type end to the top beak which makes a very blunt tool when it comes to stabbing, I posted photos on another thread recently to show this! Cormorants grab their prey using the hook on the upper beak to get a very good hold, I guess they would easily cause fin damage if they grabbed the tail!
 
Well i was reading a article in the Sunday Express regarding the AT calling for Cormarants, Goosesanders etc to be culled...Well let me tell you the AT are on to hiding for nothing as the RSPB and other groups are appalled by such a request..This is how most public view this matter about predators being culled..We Anglers catch fish just to be put back. Angling is regarded as a hobbie more so than a sport, and were asking that natural predators be killed just so we can catch fish to be put back, not EATEN..The more i think on those lines, the more stupid i realise the AT and us Anglers actually sound, including myself in the past. In many rivers where big fish were present in great numbers there were no natural predators such as Otters due to reasons we all now know, and actually was a un-natural balance. I guess it comes as a shock to us now that these big fish are thinning out, but its actually more of a natural balance than it has been for some years.

Dont get me wrong im not on the side of the idiots who released Otters without carrying out proper eco surveys because what they did was completely wrong but thats all said and done now and us anglers are just going to have to get used to how things are now and in the future or take up golf!!!
 
Craig is right . Most members of the public don't understand angling or it's attraction . At best anglers are viewed as harmless sad chaps who like sitting in the rain for hours , others regard us as cruel heartless individuals who inflict pain on innocent fish . It's my guess that most none angling members of the public would regard the thought of culling birds and god forbid otters to preserve sport for anglers as distasteful , even abhorrent . Despite all the predator action group fuss and angling celebs signing up to it's cause , you don't see any politicians swelling the ranks . Like it or not politicians change things and there are none who will support a predator cull
 
As you sail a boat out of Bowness Bay heading North up Windermere, there is a small island which is now completely white with cormorant poo and the tops of all the trees are black with cormorants, every single person you speak to who owns a boat or property up there says they should be shot, most think they came here from abroad and have just stayed, they don't realise they are coastal birds who can't hunt any more because we ate all their food! I don't know anyone who has looked at a cormorant and though "awe how cute" most say "what an ugly greasy looking bird". I actually think that if put across well there would be no argument, apart from the RSPB, to stop a major thinning............... It is just that no-one in angling has come up with a real viable, eloquent story yet!!

We anglers are the worst of the lot, all we do is come on forums and moan and complain about absolutely anything which stops us being guaranteed to catch loads of fish every time we go no matter what the level of our effort or competence is.

Let's face it, Barbel were fairly difficult fish to catch, then the halibut pellet came along and for a while any noddy could go out on most rivers with barbel in and catch a hat full, hell, even I caught a few :) Now they are getting difficult to catch again people are looking to anything and everything to blame for that and I for one have had enough of it...........crikey, the blood pressure was rising there!!
 
i think your being a little pedantic there Ian, if a cormorant "grabs" a fish but the fish is too big it is likely to cause damage with its beak, i would regard that damage as a stab wound, not a grab wound.
If the dig was aimed at me i am not moaning about fishing getting harder, i have and no doubt will blank many times for all sorts of fish, thats the nature of fishing and personally I didn't notice barbel being hard to catch before halibuts, in fact i probably caught more 30 years ago than i do now, on most rivers i would say there are less but larger Barbel.
I do enjoy fishing for them with at least a faint hope of catching . Much as i enjoy being out on the river, catching or otherwise i don't sit there with no bait on , if the numbers in the Kennet plummet as they have on some other rivers like the BA, Wensum i might as well be. I think its a combination of things causing all fish stocks to decline but i don't exclude otters from that. At the end of the day otters are an apex predator and it MAY become needful to control their numbers to protect other wildlife, not just Barbel but water voles, waterfowl etc.
 
Of course we could all support the move for more marine conservation areas which may help the sea bird issue. As a diver who is lucky to dive in a MC area you would not believe the difference when compared to a non MC area, well perhaps you would, but this is the only way to keep seabirds at sea. As for the otter if we believe in the balance of nature it will come around as there will not be the food left, of course there may be also far fewer fish in the rivers either.

As said above the GBP do not understand the idea of angling...but what happened to the notion that ours has the greatest level of participants of any pastime? It don't where i live...strange looks on the bus to the local river are the norm:eek:
 
Craig Wood said:
Well i was reading a article in the Sunday Express regarding the AT calling for Cormarants, Goosesanders etc to be culled...Well let me tell you the AT are on to hiding for nothing as the RSPB and other groups are appalled by such a request..This is how most public view this matter about predators being culled..We Anglers catch fish just to be put back. Angling is regarded as a hobbie more so than a sport, and were asking that natural predators be killed just so we can catch fish to be put back, not EATEN..The more i think on those lines, the more stupid i realise the AT and us Anglers actually sound, including myself in the past. In many rivers where big fish were present in great numbers there were no natural predators such as Otters due to reasons we all now know, and actually was a un-natural balance. I guess it comes as a shock to us now that these big fish are thinning out, but its actually more of a natural balance than it has been for some years.

Dont get me wrong im not on the side of the idiots who released Otters without carrying out proper eco surveys because what they did was completely wrong but thats all said and done now and us anglers are just going to have to get used to how things are now and in the future or take up golf!!!
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Craig, there is a lot of truth in some of what you say...BUT...Are you seriously suggesting that the obscene numbers of cormorants now present on every inland water in the country (for whatever reason) is "More of a natural balance"....Really :eek:

The fact is there is nothing 'natural' about the predator situation on our rivers at the moment. 'Natural' doesn't happen where the habitat is bought to an imbalance by mankind. Fish require a whole different set of water qualities to survive to those required by mammals...because effectively they breathe the water they live in, as opposed to being able to take oxygen from the atmosphere as we...and otters...and cormorants et al...can do.

Otters CAN live in water which is utterly impossible for fish to survive in, that is a fact, as can cormorants and goosanders etc. OK, they will get a tad hungry in those circumstances, so they will polish off the last few surviving fish, then other riverine mammals (such as protected water voles), the ducks, coots...you name it, they will kill it...and then move on. We KNOW it's not their fault, they are only doing what they were born to do....survive. And yes, in big, relatively healthy rivers (and there are thankfully still a number of them left) they can and will live in perfect, balanced harmony with the fish and other riverine wildlife...a superb, 'natural' situation.

Sadly, on smaller rivers, and rivers of any size where the fish are living on the edge of survival due to pollution and all the other ills we have subjected them to (and there a whole lot more of them) the otters and other predators, which are now at perfectly unnatural levels, due to mankinds meddling, will devastate the fish and other wildlife in there efforts to survive, before they move on.

Mankind has caused this depressing problem, and the powers that be are still not complying with the European directives to put things right in our rivers...and in the current financial situation, that is unlikely to change , so things will only get worse for our fish. OK, EVENTUALLY a balance will be struck. the otter and cormorant etc. numbers WILL drop back as food stocks diminish, that is inevitable. Sadly, by that time, the fish and other wildlife on many of our more troubled waters will have ceased to exist in any meaningful numbers....because mankind bought about the situation whereby that is inevitable...and then we stuck our heads in the sand.

Now, I honestly believe (and I am far from alone in that belief) that those things will come about...it is a 'natural' result, the inevitable end result, of the set of circumstances mankind has brought about. So...OK, I accept that the 'royal we' brought this tragedy about, so 'we' must accept the consequences. Just don't expect me to be happy about it, or scold me for being a tad peesed off.

The fat cat billionaires, in their pent house apartments and multi million pound foreign pads, who lead us by the noses up the dead end garden paths they so cunningly designed....those who were actually the architects of our problems, are so far untouchable. The consequences of their greed and moral bankruptcy are now coming home to roost, and the worlds economies are slowly but surely collapsing. Now, that may make the issue of my potentially lost fishing pleasures pale into insignificance compared to the grand scheme of things...but to me, living in my tiny terraced house, that pleasure was bloody important...so forgive me if I have a damned good whinge about it at times.

OK?

Cheers, Dave.
 
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David Gauntlett said:
Craig, there is a lot of truth in some of what you say...BUT...Are you seriously suggesting that the obscene numbers of cormorants now present on every inland water in the country (for whatever reason) is "More of a natural balance"....Really :eek:

The fact is there is nothing 'natural' about the predator situation on our rivers at the moment. 'Natural' doesn't happen where the habitat is bought to an imbalance by mankind. Fish require a whole different set of water qualities to survive to those required by mammals...because effectively they breathe the water they live in, as opposed to being able to take oxygen from the atmosphere as we...and otters...and cormorants et al...can do.

Otters CAN live in water which is utterly impossible for fish to survive in, that is a fact, as can cormorants and goosanders etc. OK, they will get a tad hungry in those circumstances, so they will polish off the last few surviving fish, then other riverine mammals (such as protected water voles), the ducks, coots...you name it, they will kill it...and then move on. We KNOW it's not their fault, they are only doing what they were born to do....survive. And yes, in big, relatively healthy rivers (and there are thankfully still a number of them left) they can and will live in perfect, balanced harmony with the fish and other riverine wildlife...a superb, 'natural' situation.

Sadly, on smaller rivers, and rivers of any size where the fish are living on the edge of survival due to pollution and all the other ills we have subjected them to (and there a whole lot more of them) the otters and other predators, which are now at perfectly unnatural levels, due to mankinds meddling, will devastate the fish and other wildlife in there efforts to survive, before they move on.

Mankind has caused this depressing problem, and the powers that be are still not complying with the European directives to put things right in our rivers...and in the current financial situation, that is unlikely to change , so things will only get worse for our fish. OK, EVENTUALLY a balance will be struck. the otter and cormorant etc. numbers WILL drop back as food stocks diminish, that is inevitable. Sadly, by that time, the fish and other wildlife on many of our more troubled waters will have ceased to exist in any meaningful numbers....because mankind bought about the situation whereby that is inevitable...and then we stuck our heads in the sand.

Now, I honestly believe (and I am far from alone in that belief) that those things will come about...it is a 'natural' result, the inevitable end result, of the set of circumstances mankind has brought about. So...OK, I accept that the 'royal we' brought this tragedy about, so 'we' must accept the consequences. Just don't expect me to be happy about it, or scold me for being a tad peesed off.

The fat cat billionaires, in their pent house apartments and multi million pound foreign pads, who lead us by the noses up the dead end garden paths they so cunningly designed....those who were actually the architects of our problems, are so far untouchable. The consequences of their greed and moral bankruptcy are now coming home to roost, and the worlds economies are slowly but surely collapsing. Now, that may make the issue of my potentially lost fishing pleasures pale into insignificance compared to the grand scheme of things...but to me, living in my tiny terraced house, that pleasure was bloody important...so forgive me if I have a damned good whinge about it at times.

OK?

Cheers, Dave.
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Cheers, Dave.
 
Wonderful piece on Sabre rattling David, but I have heard so many 'facts' about predators wiping out fishstocks, and now you are raising the game in suggesting predators are wiping out predators...al very confusing.:confused:

Of course your piece is written in the style to gain support from those who prefer the easy to digest argument and of course it is from an Angler, that of course to a outsider will smack of pure self interest.

So whilst I share a huge amount of concern as to why fish stocks are in decline in one species, (barbel) in some rivers, and yet other species (bream) are indeed flourishing? as was reported by Terry's capture of 5lb specimens from the Teme yesterday....

Why then can we blame Otter and others for the declins in Barbel numbers from the Teme, and yet what would appear an easier target for the Otter, the bream, seemingly flourish?

All very confusing really, you of course are right to a certain degree in blaming man, perhaps we should go a bit further and blame Anglers, with the pressure the Teme and other rivers have seen recently, I am not at all surprised that these smaller rivers will be the first to suffer.

Also, I do not buy into your comments that these predators will just carry on until there is nothing left? Surely they do understand that to carry on regardless would be futile....It is a heavily weighted condemation you put on the shoulders of these predators, without any real evidence, as I said David a good piece of Sabre rattling mind:)

However I suspect the real reasons are spread across the board, and no one single event is to blame, however I think for Anglers to simply blame others is somehow missing the point, and unless we as Anglers look to ourselves then nothing will improve, of course that will never happen.

Tin hat on:)
 
I may be completely wrong on this, but I've a suspicion otters don't like bream. Anyone confirm or deny this??
 
I think they like anything , especially with a nice Chianti .:) I have seen them eating bream and caught bream with obvious otter bites out of their tails .
 
Also, I do not buy into your comments that these predators will just carry on until there is nothing left? Surely they do understand that to carry on regardless would be futile....
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This is precisely what they will do until a 'natural balance' is reached or they find a new food source or move elsewhere. Why should otters have an inate capacity to draw the line on reproduction because food stocks are dwindlimg? If they have, they're one step ahead of the human race!
 
Apparently they don't like bream, carp or tench either, otherwise some of the many unprotected gravel pits along the Kennet would be suffering losses from otter kills and they aren't, it would seem only the barbel in the river are being killed! They must like the most difficult targets, a challenge maybe :)

Rob, previous comments were aimed at the internet moaners, not specifically yourself.
 
Ian Crook said:
Apparently they don't like bream, carp or tench either, otherwise some of the many unprotected gravel pits along the Kennet would be suffering losses from otter kills and they aren't, it would seem only the barbel in the river are being killed! They must like the most difficult targets, a challenge maybe :)

Rob, previous comments were aimed at the internet moaners, not specifically yourself.
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Again we cannot agree on whether or not Otter will eat Bream, how then can we comment with any conviction re barbel numbers as to what are the reasons? I was under the impression that Otter has a pretty much anything will do attitude to grub.
So if Otter do take Bream, they must be considered an easier target than Barbel.... No? Yes? :)
However one thing we can consider as fact Bream are pretty much 'home boys' whereas barbel do have the option to not stick around.
 
Neil Smart said:
Again we cannot agree on whether or not Otter will eat Bream, how then can we comment with any conviction re barbel numbers as to what are the reasons? I was under the impression that Otter has a pretty much anything will do attitude to grub.
So if Otter do take Bream, they must be considered an easier target than Barbel.... No? Yes? :)
However one thing we can consider as fact Bream are pretty much 'home boys' whereas barbel do have the option to not stick around.
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Not sure whether or not you missed the sarcasm in my post Neil :D

Regarding eating everything, it is a well documented fact that a Dog otter will protect a territory for it's bitch/pups and will drive it's own mature pups out of that territory. The size of that territory is dependant on the size of the larder, i.e. a larder with a low density of fish will lead to the otter protecting a bigger territory, at this point they kill each other.......... Natural control!!
 
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