Otters again

[Alex Gowney]

Well, as long as the only action anyone from the angling community takes is words on here and other forums they most definitely are here to stay and the problem will only get worse...............

I take it the EA is who you are referring to Ian....

Seriously though, you have made this point before (a valid point) and I wonder what you consider to be action that is legal. I, and quite a few others on here, have contacted the EA by various means on several occasions (more about crayfish than otters myself) and got fobbed off. Because people express their opinions on a forum (isn't that what they're for??) doesn't mean they aren't trying to get something done.

So a serious question Ian, what do you do? If you are active in trying to get some help for our rivers then it would be a good idea to let others know what course you follow, especially if you are making progress.

I would certainly like to be able to do something but apart from trying to get a non PC influenced response from the EA don't really know what to do.

 

[Paul Boote]

The Chairman on Saturday

Subject: PC Gonne-Madde


No, not Dave our former Bobby who has since moved on to greater and more gory things in Downing Street, but what the other PC thing is doing to this once-great country of ours - being no longer permitted to call an otter a spade, for example.


As ever,

B.B.

 

[Rhys Perry]

As anglers in pursuit of a challenge we should welcome the otters, yes they eat fish but all species need a predator to keep the population healthy.*

If the rivers can support otters then the population will survive and the fish stocks which survive will be leaner, fitter and a better quarry for us as anglers than some of the beaten up, blind, bloated, pellet fed monstrosities we are so keen to protect.
If however the river is not a healthy environment then the otters will loose condition, fail to breed, the young wont reach maturity and ultimately certain colony will die out.
The problem we have now is this apex predator has been introduced into a managed environment with a falsely high population of old slow fish and it's having a beano....Given time the predator/prey ratio will balance itself out and we anglers, at least you younger ones, will still have your sport, they just won't be so many 'big old girls' around.
As anglers we will just have to alter our expectations or be prepared to do as many of us already do and travel to more prolific rivers or rivers which still contain a few specimen fish.
I regularly travel to the Dove (100 miles round) for larger fish or the Trent (212 miles round) for numbers of fish despite having the middle Severn 15 minutes away.
The bottom line is the furry little monsters are here to stay so we may as well get used to it.


*As proof of this you need look no further than the fox population. Since the ban on hunting, the fox has gone from being a fit young healthy population to a mangy (literally) flea bitten, worm infested old population which is having to move ever closer to our urban areas to survive, While it was being hunted the old ,sick and weak were the first to be caught and poor genes were not passed on, since the ban this has not been the case and the whole population is suffering.

I'm going to wear a hat, so I can take it off to you.

 

[David Hall]

I'm going to wear a hat, so I can take it off to you.

really,
well, here it is, otters are here, yes
otters were reintroduced, yes
anglers are irrelevant...yes
anglers had no say on forced environmental engineering,yes.
:confused:

 

[Paul Boote]

Worse than the effect of any otters and cormorants, in my opinion, is Anglers' sense of their own pitiful victimhood; we have been infantilized and become terrible-two greedy in the past couple of decades (as has much of British and Western society), quick to take, even quicker to chorus when the goods are no longer delivered on demand "It's not fair!".

 

[David Hall]

oh yer, paul, it's anglers, nothing to do with being victims, it's the facts that matter, the EA don't want to see past their rod licences.

 

[Adam Ditchburn]

Paul - I think your point is valid in the " I want 100lb" when I go to a puddle "Angler", this point is valid

I have only recently come back to fishing, it makes me sick that people fish for a consolation prize in these places.

David - I realy want to know when they have done anything for us anglers it must be the 90's last time??? I know the odd occasion but realy when?

No club can act on its own without the backing of a "super power" how about every specimen group get together? At least the Barbel and Carp Groups, this is woth mega money to the tackle companies let’s start somewhere with them!

They have had our money let’s put a constructive group together that will not appear aggressive to the wildlife groups but can work together, the fluffy lovers already hate the mink now, it won't be long when they hate the otters when they eat all the wildfowl.

 

[David Gauntlett]

Worse than the effect of any otters and cormorants, in my opinion, is Anglers' sense of their own pitiful victimhood; we have been infantilized and become terrible-two greedy in the past couple of decades (as has much of British and Western society), quick to take, even quicker to chorus when the goods are no longer delivered on demand "It's not fair!".

Hi Paul,

What a hard man to please you are dear chap...in an earlier post you told me I must complain if I see the need, that it is something that you do all the time.....and yet here you are telling us that to complain is to demonstrate ones 'sense of pitiful victimhood'.......or did you really mean that I should only complain in a way that meets with your approval?

As for becoming 'infantilized' or 'terrible-two greedy' in the last couple of decades...or at any other time, come to that, I would suggest it might be better to have actually met, and better still come to know someone, before you can fairly hurl accusations like that around. That is gratuitous generalisation at best....in my opinion.

The fact is Paul, we all have our own thoughts about the otter issue...you have yours, and I have mine....and we are both entitled to state those views on this forum...that is what it is for (provided we do so within the rules of course)...and I shall continue to do so, whether you like it or not. And no doubt you will continue to respond in your inimitable style, whether I like it or not

Talking of which...I doubt whether many who bother to read these otter threads would be in any doubt exactly what my opinion is on this issue (ignoring those who persist in interpreting things to suit themselves), but I will wager that very few are absolutely, copper bottomed, 100% certain EXACTLY what your views on the whole issue are.

Obviously, everyone is pretty damned clear on the fact that you will have absolutely no truck with the idea of calling for a cull, or interfering with otters in any way, shape or form whatsoever. Further, that you see any attempt by others at doing so as counter productive at best, and potentially suicidal for angling as a whole at worst.

Where it becomes confusing is that many of those who speak out because they are upset by one or another aspect of this issue are actually not about to argue with much of that...I think most would agree with you on many/most of those points. However, what many on here cannot understand is why it is (that being the case) that anyone concerned enough to stand up and assert their right to complain...or heaven forbid, to actually dare mention the word 'unfair', is immediately submitted to one of your, errr...dare I say it...slightly surreal posts, filled with scathing, sarcastic and frequently totally unfair p) comments....and that's only the bits we understand

Despite your seeming denials Paul, there are such words as fairness/unfairness....they describe a concept that is quite valid, and there is nothing wrong in using those words to describe some of the issues under debate in an otter related thread. That's only my opinion of course....

I guess what I am saying Paul is...why don't you discuss the issues raised, air your own views/arguements in response to those posted, rather than merely dismiss them in your usual rather...unique...manner? Or are those of us that have dared to put a toe on the wrong side of the imaginary line you appear to have drawn around this matter deemed unworthy of a straight forward reply?

Cheers, Dave.

 

[Paul Boote]

It really is sometimes just like being back on Fly Fishing Forums in the early to mid 2000s - with my every posting and every last word picked over by a full-time crew of flyboy carpers, and me expected to account for my every word, idea and sentiment (for my use of commas and semi-colons, too - one loon in South Wales reckoned that I was playing fast and free with them and deeply objected to / hated me as a result - no pleasing some). Sorry, Dave, but make what you will of what I say and what I don't say here; what I say here is all you are getting.

 

[David Hall]

round around in circles...

 

[David Gauntlett]

Good heavens Paul...what on earth were those 'flyboy carpers' doing on fly fishing forums in the first place....and what ever could it have been that induced them all to attack poor old you anyway?

Could it be that they were in fact flyfishers, rather than the 'flyboy carpers' your are calling them, flyfishers whom in fact eventually tired of being attacked by you, and decided to retalliate? Seems to make sense to me that if they were the guilty ones, they would no longer be members, whereas you still would be....but that isn't actually the case, now is it old chap?

I have a great respect for your intelect Paul, and for your achievements in the past, and I really had no wish to become embroiled in an argument with you, I am too old for all this nonsense. There is a simple remedy to all this... If you do not wish to be attacked, then stop attacking/belittling others.

Cheers, Dave.

 

[Alex Gowney]

I gave up trying to interpret Paul's posts ages ago but I find them often amusing and certainly different! The trouble with forums, like text messages, is we put our own interpretation to what has been written without really knowing the spirit in which it was intended.
I do agree with Dave though that we are all entitled to express our opinion within the bounds of good manners and the Forums rules. There are those who dislike otter threads and those who like to discuss the issue. This shouldn't present a problem. If you see a thread on a subject that either bores or annoys you, don't read it! There are a few threads on here I have no interest in but wouldn't dream of suggesting the subject shouldn't be dicussed by anyone.

 

[John Hepworth]

i think the only hope is the trust, but I'm not holding my breath.

I dont share even your faint hopes David, especially whilst the current CEO is in post the ATr is so closely linked to the WWF, and is partly funded by them. £54,688 in its first year

Fact is the ATr is just not interested in big specimen coarse fish, those anglers that fish for them or the Specialist Groups that initially part funded the setting up of the Trust, to the tune of £10,000.(it also took £29k from NAFAC but thats another issue I have)
When the otters start chewing their way through the match fodder then and only then will we see any real action.

 

[Paul Boote]

Good heavens Paul...what on earth were those 'flyboy carpers' doing on fly fishing forums in the first place....and what ever could it have been that induced them all to attack poor old you anyway?

Could it be that they were in fact flyfishers, rather than the 'flyboy carpers' your are calling them, flyfishers whom in fact eventually tired of being attacked by you, and decided to retalliate? Seems to make sense to me that if they were the guilty ones, they would no longer be members, whereas you still would be....but that isn't actually the case, now is it old chap?

I have a great respect for your intelect Paul, and for your achievements in the past, and I really had no wish to become embroiled in an argument with you, I am too old for all this nonsense. There is a simple remedy to all this... If you do not wish to be attacked, then stop attacking/belittling others.

Cheers, Dave.

Flyboy "carpers"? As in "to carp" - To find fault in a disagreeable way; complain fretfully.

I wasn't criticizing those FFF fellows back then - the members, after all, did vote me Master Poster of the Year one year's end - for sense and judgement shown, for my helpfulness and knowledge. But carpers are everywhere now, on every forum and in every newspaper comments column, taking issue with and picking away at those they believe to be unlike themselves and therefore a danger to society as a whole. Tedious, it's becoming as bad as the ethnic cleansing Thought Police 1980s.

 

[Chris Guy]

Can we please get back to the issue in this thread please, moaning about otters.
And those who would like to cuddle them.

Crayfish traps could be the answer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xJTpAdYAow&feature=related

 

[Chris Jones]

I wasn't criticizing those FFF fellows back then

What's Fisky ever done to you?

 

[Paul Boote]

The Chairman on Sunday:

Subject: Dealing with Those With Agenda and the Hard of Thinking


As I advised young Paul over the blower a bit earlier, you either ignore such sorts or you fry them. Here in the ageless Hamsters, we do the latter and the place and its fishings are all the better for it.


As ever,

B.B.

 

[Ian Crook]

I take it the EA is who you are referring to Ian....

Seriously though, you have made this point before (a valid point) and I wonder what you consider to be action that is legal. I, and quite a few others on here, have contacted the EA by various means on several occasions (more about crayfish than otters myself) and got fobbed off. Because people express their opinions on a forum (isn't that what they're for??) doesn't mean they aren't trying to get something done.

So a serious question Ian, what do you do? If you are active in trying to get some help for our rivers then it would be a good idea to let others know what course you follow, especially if you are making progress.

I would certainly like to be able to do something but apart from trying to get a non PC influenced response from the EA don't really know what to do.

Alex,

I probably come across as being critical of people and that is not intended, just trying to get people to do more than talk.........

I am involved with the River Loddon primarilly, I am on the committee of my local club and spend a lot of my free time on river conservation and fishery improvement, so much so that it does interfere with the time I have available for fishing myself.

I am a member of the committee of the Loddon Fisheries and Conservation Consultative, this is a group mainly comprising angling clubs, initiated and supported by the EA Fisheries and the various wildlife and conservation groups.........it is a very good format to address problems and plan proper actions and improvements to the riverine environment. Most of what we are doing is looking to the long term future and not next season, this is one thing anglers seem to have difficulty grasping.

The damage done to our environment has been done over many, many years, mostly by man and will take time to heal.

Regarding otters, I am pretty much on the same wavelength as Adrian in that no predator will empty it's larder and a balance will be reached with the unnaturally large and lethargic fish suffering and angling will have to adapt........

We (anglers) have been spoilt by the invention of the "Commercial Fishery" where you can go and are guaranteed to catch. Real fisheries are moody and have good and bad times........

I am amazed at how often people contact our club committee and say things like, "the fishing is bad, all the fish are gone, what are YOU doing aout it?" WE, being the club's voluntary committee, and the complaint being because the angler has not been able to catch a fish for a few months. This season things are mostly back to normal and the complaints have been pretty much zero..............

In the case of the Thames, there is in existence the Thames Fisheries Consultative Council who are doing similar together with local clubs. These groups are always voluntary and could always use more support, so contact them and offer your time and your services. Roll your sleeves up and get stuck in, it is great fun and will completely turn around your point of view with regards the EA and the environment in general.

 

[Jim Foxall]

Otters

Alex,

I probably come across as being critical of people and that is not intended, just trying to get people to do more than talk.........

I am involved with the River Loddon primarilly, I am on the committee of my local club and spend a lot of my free time on river conservation and fishery improvement, so much so that it does interfere with the time I have available for fishing myself.

I am a member of the committee of the Loddon Fisheries and Conservation Consultative, this is a group mainly comprising angling clubs, initiated and supported by the EA Fisheries and the various wildlife and conservation groups.........it is a very good format to address problems and plan proper actions and improvements to the riverine environment. Most of what we are doing is looking to the long term future and not next season, this is one thing anglers seem to have difficulty grasping.

The damage done to our environment has been done over many, many years, mostly by man and will take time to heal.

Regarding otters, I am pretty much on the same wavelength as Adrian in that no predator will empty it's larder and a balance will be reached with the unnaturally large and lethargic fish suffering and angling will have to adapt........

We (anglers) have been spoilt by the invention of the "Commercial Fishery" where you can go and are guaranteed to catch. Real fisheries are moody and have good and bad times........

I am amazed at how often people contact our club committee and say things like, "the fishing is bad, all the fish are gone, what are YOU doing aout it?" WE, being the club's voluntary committee, and the complaint being because the angler has not been able to catch a fish for a few months. This season things are mostly back to normal and the complaints have been pretty much zero..............

In the case of the Thames, there is in existence the Thames Fisheries Consultative Council who are doing similar together with local clubs. These groups are always voluntary and could always use more support, so contact them and offer your time and your services. Roll your sleeves up and get stuck in, it is great fun and will completely turn around your point of view with regards the EA and the environment in general.

Don't agree, the otters will empty their larders of all food sources, and as their food decreases, otter numbers will decline, but by then it will be too late.This is a straightforward predator prey relationship

 

[David Hall]

Don't agree, the otters will empty their larders of all food sources, and as their food decreases, otter numbers will decline, but by then it will be too late.This is a straightforward predator prey relationship

agreed, there not clever enough to regulate food stocks.:confused: