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Otter Petition

David Gauntlett said:
Joe, I imagine that they will just look further afield for their food, away from the rivers....something they do at times anyway. The down side of that from the otters point of view is that more of them will be killed on the roads. Lots of otters are killed that way anyway, and that will obviously get worse in the current circumstances (BAD pun :eek:)

I would imagine that unfenced commercials will take a pounding as well (those that aren't flooded themselves) :D

Cheers, Dave.
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David incase you have not noticed the roads are underwater at the moment :rolleyes:
 
All will be revealed come the spring, when waters have subsided and the little furry critters should be visible in their natural environment. They are normally easily viewed in Thetford - anyone local to there?

I can see the floods having quite a devastating effect, on the otter populations, where they have hit hardest.
 
Graham Young said:
Perhaps when (not if) every river has been decimated by the predators then we might all be singing the same tune, by then it will be to late.
If the river you fish has not yet been affected enjoy it because eventually it will be.
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How many times have I heard that! My usual haunt, the Ribble has Otters, Mink, Seals, Cormorants, Goosanders, Herons, Kingfishers, Pike - you name them we've got them! No lack of fish there. The Wye, which is every Barbel anglers dream river at the moment is much the same. It's always had Otters, Cormorants, Goosanders and even Seals as we see at the moment and yet there will be plenty of Barbel caught next season. Predators play an important roll in a healthy river system - many of our rivers our not in a healthy state - that's the problem we should stand united to fight.
 
How many times have you heard that Andrew? About the same number of times as I have heard your reply, at a rough guess :D We all keep pounding out our points of view, because that is what a healthy debate is all about.

My usual reply to your post would be as follows :D

You keep on pointing out that relatively healthy rivers such as the Wye and Ribble cope perfectly well with a varied predator population....which is true, but hardly surprising....that is the way nature designed it to work. The key words here are 'Healthy' and 'Balanced'. You also point out that many of our rivers are not in a healthy state, and that this is what we should all be uniting to fight. Again, true.

However, even healthy rivers will not cope forever, if the prey/predator balance is drastically interfered with, as it is now. Political correctness/European interference now dictates that everything with big money and public sympathy behind it is totally protected. That means that all the bigger predators are now untouchable...while nobody but us gives a damn about the the critters they prey on. Human intervention has determined that all the critters that once controlled otter numbers no longer exist, which would have been a problem....had gamekeepers and river keepers etc. not taken over that role.

But what will happen now Andrew, now that they are banned from doing that? And what will happen now that cormorants from Europe, with a preference for inland waters, have joined our native variety, swelling the numbers to unheard of levels....not forgetting that they too now enjoy what amounts to almost total protection?

The unhealthy state of many our rivers rivers has meant that their fish populations are struggling, they are on the edge. The few surviving fish, still hanging on despite the pollution, the masses of non native, egg eating crayfish and the many other daily battles they face....are now up against large numbers of protected predators. It doesn't take much imagination to realise that for many...that will be the final nail in their coffin.

Of course pollution, over abstraction and ALL those other evils need addressing....that goes without saying. They ARE the main problem...we all understand that Andrew. However, human greed and public apathy means that those battles are not going to be won any time soon, don't you agree? In the meantime, the many anglers who do not enjoy the great river fishing in healthy rivers that you do....have a problem. In many cases, their local rivers, rivers that just about support a limited fish population....are likely to be decimated. The sport they enjoyed every weekend after work is quite possibly about to be reduced to a shadow of it's former self.

Why on earth should they be happy about that? Why should they accept that a river (temporarily) full of otters and cormorants etc....is a reasonable exchange for what they once had? I accept that that is a very simplified and black/white version of things...but do you see the point I am trying to make? You have your stance on these issues, and not a lot will change it....while others see things differently....and not a lot will change that, either :D

We shall see, time will tell....and all the other platitudes you care to mention that fit here :D:D:D

Cheers, Dave.
 
Well I apologise for trying to bring an alternative viewpoint to the thread. Perhaps, like many others, I should leave it to the blood thirsty, kill all fish eating predators brigade that seems prevalent on here. Just under 5000 signatures so far suggests to me you're in the minority - whats that, about 0.2% of the angling population? Still, it's more than double what the same petition got last year and considering it runs till 2015 by the end of it you might have 20-30 thousand signatures which would equate to about 1% of the angling population. I'll stand by my view that it's a pointless petition and leave it there but let me re first reiterate the point that by calling for a cull on Otters put's you in direct conflict with every other group that has in interest in making our rivers healthier and that is not good for angling.
 
Andrew Boyne said:
Well I apologise for trying to bring an alternative viewpoint to the thread. Perhaps, like many others, I should leave it to the blood thirsty, kill all fish eating predators brigade that seems prevalent on here. Just under 5000 signatures so far suggests to me you're in the minority - whats that, about 0.2% of the angling population? Still, it's more than double what the same petition got last year and considering it runs till 2015 by the end of it you might have 20-30 thousand signatures which would equate to about 1% of the angling population. I'll stand by my view that it's a pointless petition and leave it there but let me re first reiterate the point that by calling for a cull on Otters put's you in direct conflict with every other group that has in interest in making our rivers healthier and that is not good for angling.
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Very well put Andrew!
 
Bobby Baker said:
Just out of interest, WHO is illegally releasing all these hand reared otters then?
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No one for twenty odd years Bobby.

Some people seem to think that an Apex predator with quite a healthy breeding rate would not be able to re-populate a country as small as the UK in 50 years. Yes, the otter trust programme in the eighties and early nineties probably sped it up by ten years!!
 
In my very humble opinion,

The only chance we have of getting anything done is for us ALL to join the Angling Trust and allow a professional body to fight these issues on our behalf, as they have done with cormorants.

As can be seen from the posts on this thread alone, we couldn't run a coffee morning between us!

Best regards,

Jeff
 
David Gauntlett said:
If ALL the roads are underwater in your area....I would start building an arc :D As for the otters, all those I have come across can swim...which allows them to reach areas that are not flooded :rolleyes:

Cheers, Dave :D
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David dont you have a TV in your house :rolleyes: and have you not been watching the news ? I assume you have seen the amount of flooding we have around the country at the moment ? With towns and roads and countryside underwater ?

I think if the rain continues in the Somerset Levels and other parts of the Uk then as you say they may need to start building an Arc :rolleyes: .
When you look at the Thames valley for example and see the amount of roads underwater . I think the last thing a Otter has to worry about is being squashed by a car :rolleyes:

Yes David Otters can swim and had you bothered to read a previous post .
I stated that yes Adults will survive and very young Otters would or could either drown or starve to death .
 
Andrew Boyne said:
How many times have I heard that! My usual haunt, the Ribble has Otters, Mink, Seals, Cormorants, Goosanders, Herons, Kingfishers, Pike - you name them we've got them! No lack of fish there. The Wye, which is every Barbel anglers dream river at the moment is much the same. It's always had Otters, Cormorants, Goosanders and even Seals as we see at the moment and yet there will be plenty of Barbel caught next season. Predators play an important roll in a healthy river system - many of our rivers our not in a healthy state - that's the problem we should stand united to fight.
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Andrew," how many times have you heard that" well once from me, you have named 2 rivers one that you usually fish and one that you say is "a Barbel anglers dream", thats2 rivers out of how many?

If the Ribble hasn't been affected there may be reasons for this, among them that reintroduced otters were not released in some areas in the numbers they were elsewhere and so perhaps the river was able to stand the introduction of another predator, another reason might be that before reintroduction there was an inbalance of predator to prey in favour of the prey another reason why the river does not seem to have suffered to the extent that others have.

The other river you mention has a history of Salmon fishing and everything that goes along with that, Salmon fishing can be very lucrative, and river keepers will do what is needed to keep it that way, it would be naive to think that control of predators doesn't/hasn't happened on these fisheries, to take that further if "control" has taken place the remaining predator population would spread to parts that are not "controlled.

Unfortunately as you rightly state our rivers are because of a myriad of reasons not in healthy condition, they were that way with the associated low fish stock and poor recruitment of young fish before the ill thought out reintroduction of otters, these reintroductions (and it would also be naïve to believe the figures released were the only releases) have on a lot of rivers that were teetering on the pushed them over the limit of what the river can sustain as far as predators.

There is no doubt that Cormorants and goosanders have contributed to the decline of many fisheries, they also were there before the reintroduction of otters, they were part of the reasons that rivers were on the edge, thankfully small gains have been made towards some sort of control of these birds, I believe that its to little and the government are paying lip service to the trust while trying to keep other interested parties happy as well one of which has a much more powerful lobby than the trust.

You also mention Herons, Kingfishers and Pike, because rivers have been pushed over the edge these along with other birds/ fish are also suffering because of the state of our rivers, the none fishing public have no idea or even care what goes on beneath the surface of any water, they mostly have no conception of the balance needed for a waterway to be healthy, they like otters that themselves will eventually suffer because of mans interference.

I am glad that the Ribble has a healthy fish population and a good balance, it makes me sad that a lot of other rivers do not, I fear it is to late for some and that others will take many years of recovery before balance is achieved on them.

I mentioned naïve in my post it wasn't directed at yourself more in general.
 
Graham Young said:
Andrew," how many times have you heard that" well once from me, you have named 2 rivers one that you usually fish and one that you say is "a Barbel anglers dream", thats2 rivers out of how many?

If the Ribble hasn't been affected there may be reasons for this, among them that reintroduced otters were not released in some areas in the numbers they were elsewhere and so perhaps the river was able to stand the introduction of another predator, another reason might be that before reintroduction there was an inbalance of predator to prey in favour of the prey janother reason why the river does not seem to have suffered to the extent that others have.

The other river you mention has a history of Salmon fishing and everything that goes along with that, Salmon fishing can be very lucrative, and river keepers will do what is needed to keep it that way, it would be naive to think that control of predators doesn't/hasn't happened on these fisheries, to take that further if "control" has taken place the remaining predator population would spread to parts that are not "controlled.

Unfortunately as you rightly state our rivers are because of a myriad of reasons not in healthy condition, they were that way with the associated low fish stock and poor recruitment of young fish before the ill thought out reintroduction of otters, these reintroductions (and it would also be naïve to believe the figures released were the only releases) have on a lot of rivers that were teetering on the pushed them over the limit of what the river can sustain as far as predators.

There is no doubt that Cormorants and goosanders have contributed to the decline of many fisheries, they also were there before the reintroduction of otters, they were part of the reasons that rivers were on the edge, thankfully small gains have been made towards some sort of control of these birds, I believe that its to little and the government are paying lip service to the trust while trying to keep other interested parties happy as well one of which has a much more powerful lobby than the trust.

You also mention Herons, Kingfishers and Pike, because rivers have been pushed over the edge these along with other birds/ fish are also suffering because of the state of our rivers, the none fishing public have no idea or even care what goes on beneath the surface of any water, they mostly have no conception of the balance needed for a waterway to be healthy, they like otters that themselves will eventually suffer because of mans interference.

I am glad that the Ribble has a healthy fish population and a good balance, it makes me sad that a lot of other rivers do not, I fear it is to late for some and that others will take many years of recovery before balance is achieved on them.

I mentioned naïve in my post it wasn't directed at yourself more in general.
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Presumably, this is all just opinion? Not much fact in there!

I think you a little out with your timings, the cormorant/goosander issue has hit the rivers quite some time after otter introduction.
 
Jeff Edisbury said:
In my very humble opinion,

The only chance we have of getting anything done is for us ALL to join the Angling Trust and allow a professional body to fight these issues on our behalf, as they have done with cormorants.

As can be seen from the posts on this thread alone, we couldn't run a coffee morning between us!

Best regards,

Jeff
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I don't know about that, there is no shortage of coffee grinders between us!!:p
 
Ian Crook said:
Presumably, this is all just opinion? Not much fact in there!

I think you a little out with your timings, the cormorant/goosander issue has hit the rivers quite some time after otter introduction.
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Yes my opinion, the words might, may be, perhaps are good pointers towards that, I thought that in a democracy everyone was entitled to one, perhaps I was wrong. have you any facts to dispute my opinion? I would welcome them. I am afraid you are wrong about my timings, Cormorants were here long before the reintroduction of otter, they may have become more of a problem because of breeding but they were here before as I saw them on a Stillwater near my home during 1980.
 
I saw nesting cormorants on a local lake to me when I was a kid....yes that long ago!! So late 70s early 80s I would guess. Mind you I don't think they were considered a problem then.
 
Graham Young said:
Yes my opinion, the words might, may be, perhaps are good pointers towards that, I thought that in a democracy everyone was entitled to one, perhaps I was wrong. have you any facts to dispute my opinion? I would welcome them. I am afraid you are wrong about my timings, Cormorants were here long before the reintroduction of otter, they may have become more of a problem because of breeding but they were here before as I saw them on a Stillwater near my home during 1980.
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Graham,

Just asking as you tend to post a lot on the subject as if speaking from a position of fact or fisheries expertise.

The EA survey most rivers each year with regards fish stock levels, these are available from them and would not in most cases back up your view about fish stocks being wiped out. The Otter Trust programme has had an impact on the Wensum, Great Ouse and The Broads regards some species, particularly larger specimens, however other species, eg Perch have thrived.

Regards Cormorants, I was referring to the huge growth inland since protection was introduced in 1981, peaking at 30,000 in 2003.
 
Ian Crook said:
Graham,

Just asking as you tend to post a lot on the subject as if speaking from a position of fact or fisheries expertise.

The EA survey most rivers each year with regards fish stock levels, these are available from them and would not in most cases back up your view about fish stocks being wiped out. The Otter Trust programme has had an impact on the Wensum, Great Ouse and The Broads regards some species, particularly larger specimens, however other species, eg Perch have thrived.

Regards Cormorants, I was referring to the huge growth inland since protection was introduced in 1981, peaking at 30,000 in 2003.
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No Ian not an expert in anything, but my opinions have formed from fishing rivers for over 50 years, I have never said I was speaking from a "position of fact" or" fisheries expertise" and for you to post that rather sarcastic remark is IMO below the belt and uncalled for.

I have seen the quality of river fishing decline during my lifetime to what it is now, that is a fact, I know there are ( and I mentioned it in my post) a myriad of reasons for this, amongst them ill informed reintroductions of otter where no pre introduction survey of the ability of the environment to support them were done.do you deny that otters have damaged fish stocks.

I have never said that fish stocks have been wiped out, if you are to quote me I would ask you to have the good manners not to put words in my mouth please.


If the EA surveys are to be believed everything is rosy and our rivers are doing fine, IMO they are not doing fine they are going downhill.

I post on these threads because I find them more interesting than the what wellies type of thread, if there is a problem with me not being an expert just an angler with his own opinions posting on a forum where opinions abound please let me know and I will stop.
 
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