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Otter Petition

Dear All,

The Otter predation issue was first raised politically within the SACG meetings. I was present at those meetings in my capacity as a SACG committee member. Chris Burt took up this particular issue on behalf of SACG members and carp anglers at the time because captive bred otters were being released in areas where carp waters were being decimated by predating otters. There is absolutely no doubt that this was happening. I along with many others in SACG supported and helped Chris in his efforts to bring this issue out in the open so it could be thoroughly debated amongst all the interested parties.

The captive otter breeding programme came into being via a EU directive. The EEP, the European Species Programme was born from that directive and dealt with captive breeding programmes. Go here to read more about it;


http://www.otterspecialistgroup.org...Husbandry_Guidelines_Lutra_lutra_Melissen.pdf

For more information about the law surrounding wildlife and captive bred otters go to Natural England here;

Natural England - Setting the record straight over wildlife licensing myths

I have always maintained that angling, especially specimen angling, will suffer due to otter predation. It has happened on scores of carp fisheries already and has happened at a number of river fisheries when big fish of a certain species have been wiped out completely. This is not rumour or conjecture. It has happened and is well documented as fact.

Only a fool would deny that otters will kill big fish of any species. As an apex predator in the UK only man stands above them in the predator rankings. The same can be said about the fox. Predators predate because it's their natural way and rightly so.

We can argue till Christmas about the rights and wrongs surrounding the Captive Breeding Programmes but the official word from the Otter Trust is that they ceased in 1999 and that they only released 117 in the period from 1983 to 1999. I have always believed more than that were released by other groups simply because the breeding programmes were never licensed. For more on the facts go here;

http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/static/documents/Business/Otters_the_facts.pdf

Sooner or later the issue of having an apex predator in the UK with no effective measure of control WILL come back to haunt us and it won't just be anglers and their fish stocks that will be affected. Currently the general public regard the otter in its popular Ring of Brightwater and Tarka image but even this romantic image will be dispelled eventually. Why is this?

Prior to the otter being given protected status by the Wildlife and Countryside Act of 1981 otters were kept under control if predation became a problem in certain areas. As such, there was never any major problems concerning otters. But now with otters being fully protected all parties concerned, not just anglers, have no idea what the future holds simply because we have not been in this situation before. I can not think of any apex predator apart from the otter that has received fully protected status in the UK before. As such we are in uncharted waters being totally unaware how otter predation will effect our nations wildlife long term.

Having said that, whilst having read the document attributed to this thread, I would urge all anglers NOT to sign it. It is poorly drafted in similar vein to many others I have read before with absolutely no evidence to support the authors case. This is not the document that angling should put its name to in my opinion.

Regards,

Lee.
 
I've just been perusing the thread and there was a query about whether there was any proof that barbel had been killed by otters. Here's a photo of one I found about thirty feet from the water's edge:



This is a good fish for the river (the current record is under 12lbs) and whilst I can't prove it was taken by an otter, I've seen them regularly on the stretch and even had one do a suface-dive under my rod at 1510 hrs, in bright sunshine, today!
 
Lee Fletcher said:
Dear All,

The Otter predation issue was first raised politically within the SACG meetings. I was present at those meetings in my capacity as a SACG committee member. Chris Burt took up this particular issue on behalf of SACG members and carp anglers at the time because captive bred otters were being released in areas where carp waters were being decimated by predating otters. There is absolutely no doubt that this was happening. I along with many others in SACG supported and helped Chris in his efforts to bring this issue out in the open so it could be thoroughly debated amongst all the interested parties.

The captive otter breeding programme came into being via a EU directive. The EEP, the European Species Programme was born from that directive and dealt with captive breeding programmes. Go here to read more about it;


http://www.otterspecialistgroup.org...Husbandry_Guidelines_Lutra_lutra_Melissen.pdf

For more information about the law surrounding wildlife and captive bred otters go to Natural England here;

Natural England - Setting the record straight over wildlife licensing myths

I have always maintained that angling, especially specimen angling, will suffer due to otter predation. It has happened on scores of carp fisheries already and has happened at a number of river fisheries when big fish of a certain species have been wiped out completely. This is not rumour or conjecture. It has happened and is well documented as fact.

Only a fool would deny that otters will kill big fish of any species. As an apex predator in the UK only man stands above them in the predator rankings. The same can be said about the fox. Predators predate because it's their natural way and rightly so.

We can argue till Christmas about the rights and wrongs surrounding the Captive Breeding Programmes but the official word from the Otter Trust is that they ceased in 1999 and that they only released 117 in the period from 1983 to 1999. I have always believed more than that were released by other groups simply because the breeding programmes were never licensed. For more on the facts go here;

http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/static/documents/Business/Otters_the_facts.pdf

Sooner or later the issue of having an apex predator in the UK with no effective measure of control WILL come back to haunt us and it won't just be anglers and their fish stocks that will be affected. Currently the general public regard the otter in its popular Ring of Brightwater and Tarka image but even this romantic image will be dispelled eventually. Why is this?

Prior to the otter being given protected status by the Wildlife and Countryside Act of 1981 otters were kept under control if predation became a problem in certain areas. As such, there was never any major problems concerning otters. But now with otters being fully protected all parties concerned, not just anglers, have no idea what the future holds simply because we have not been in this situation before. I can not think of any apex predator apart from the otter that has received fully protected status in the UK before. As such we are in uncharted waters being totally unaware how otter predation will effect our nations wildlife long term.

Having said that, whilst having read the document attributed to this thread, I would urge all anglers NOT to sign it. It is poorly drafted in similar vein to many others I have read before with absolutely no evidence to support the authors case. This is not the document that angling should put its name to in my opinion.

Regards,

Lee.
Click to expand...

Great post as usual Lee, pretty much spot on with my position on the subject. If I say no, do not kill otters, I am seen as burying my head in the sand/ignoring the issue.
 
Love them , hate them , bury your head in the sand , What ever you view on them might be .

It wont wont matter because public opinion will be against any control on the number of Otters .

You only have to look at the fuss the Badger Cull had and the protests caused by it and it was goverment backed ?

Will any goverment approve a control on Otters ? , I assume it would need Parliment to agree such a move ?
 
Lee Fletcher said:
Dear All,

The Otter predation issue was first raised politically within the SACG meetings. I was present at those meetings in my capacity as a SACG committee member. Chris Burt took up this particular issue on behalf of SACG members and carp anglers at the time because captive bred otters were being released in areas where carp waters were being decimated by predating otters. There is absolutely no doubt that this was happening. I along with many others in SACG supported and helped Chris in his efforts to bring this issue out in the open so it could be thoroughly debated amongst all the interested parties.

The captive otter breeding programme came into being via a EU directive. The EEP, the European Species Programme was born from that directive and dealt with captive breeding programmes. Go here to read more about it;


http://www.otterspecialistgroup.org...Husbandry_Guidelines_Lutra_lutra_Melissen.pdf

For more information about the law surrounding wildlife and captive bred otters go to Natural England here;

Natural England - Setting the record straight over wildlife licensing myths

I have always maintained that angling, especially specimen angling, will suffer due to otter predation. It has happened on scores of carp fisheries already and has happened at a number of river fisheries when big fish of a certain species have been wiped out completely. This is not rumour or conjecture. It has happened and is well documented as fact.

Only a fool would deny that otters will kill big fish of any species. As an apex predator in the UK only man stands above them in the predator rankings. The same can be said about the fox. Predators predate because it's their natural way and rightly so.

We can argue till Christmas about the rights and wrongs surrounding the Captive Breeding Programmes but the official word from the Otter Trust is that they ceased in 1999 and that they only released 117 in the period from 1983 to 1999. I have always believed more than that were released by other groups simply because the breeding programmes were never licensed. For more on the facts go here;

http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/static/documents/Business/Otters_the_facts.pdf

Sooner or later the issue of having an apex predator in the UK with no effective measure of control WILL come back to haunt us and it won't just be anglers and their fish stocks that will be affected. Currently the general public regard the otter in its popular Ring of Brightwater and Tarka image but even this romantic image will be dispelled eventually. Why is this?

Prior to the otter being given protected status by the Wildlife and Countryside Act of 1981 otters were kept under control if predation became a problem in certain areas. As such, there was never any major problems concerning otters. But now with otters being fully protected all parties concerned, not just anglers, have no idea what the future holds simply because we have not been in this situation before. I can not think of any apex predator apart from the otter that has received fully protected status in the UK before. As such we are in uncharted waters being totally unaware how otter predation will effect our nations wildlife long term.

Having said that, whilst having read the document attributed to this thread, I would urge all anglers NOT to sign it. It is poorly drafted in similar vein to many others I have read before with absolutely no evidence to support the authors case. This is not the document that angling should put its name to in my opinion.

Regards,

Lee.
Click to expand...

Lee,

Superb post; you obviously understand that the only way forward is factual evidence and ad hoc petitions such as this, although well meaning, are a complete waste of time and ultimately damaging to our cause.

However I would like to put a slightly brighter note on a doom laden thread. Before the introduction of captive bred otters we had a "natural" population the same as any other apex predator. This natural population was as a result of natures own mechanism of the food and territory available. Man has interfered with this mechanism, but the results will be temporary as the ongoing introduction of otters will cease when the do gooder's have moved on to Beavers or Lynx or Brown Bears or Wolves or whatever lunatic idea they come up with next.

In 5 years time it will all be forgotten and back to "normal", but anglers will have moved on to a whole new raft of reasons why they are not catching as well as in the good old days. However their good old days in the future will be our today.........so why not just get out there and enjoy your fishing and the never ending battle of wits to try and catch a fish.

Steve
 
It's a bit odd for a predator to completely exterminate its prey, makes no sense at all, and when the otter is forced to move on from lack of food available it'll probably come across another ones territory and they're pretty good at killing each other off. They even eat each other's testicals (whatever floats your boat) which should hinder breeding a little :D
There are many factors as to why barbel populations, along with others, may be in decline and in certain areas I'm sure the otter has played a part in it but I really wouldn't put my name to this badly presented petition to represent us anglers. Otters are here to stay and as far as the relevant authorities are concerned they're needed for a healthy, balanced ecosystem. Let's not forget they're a native species unlike some.
 
I first saw an otter on the river Dane in 1954 whilst chub fishing bold as brass he was.i never saw him again.whilst fishing the river Severn in 1970 at build was I had one pester me some time.he came on the bank to do this and it took me awhile to get rid of him.that day I had 14 barbel so why did he not decimate the shoal? He must have been aware of them.i never saw any damaged fish on either bank.
Albert
 
Otter released by RSPCA near lakes in
David Gauntlett said:
A little conjecture for you, related to this thread.

A few facts to start you off. The RSPB have, for some time, been trying to spread their wings (bad pun). They now desperately want to be seen as the saviours of ALL wildlife, rather than sticking to their original remit. They state this quite clearly on all their many sites. Being the rather efficient money making machine that they are, the aaaaaah factor and good publicity potential surrounding otters did not escaped their notice. It wasn't long before pictures and articles devoted to this lovable animal were included in virtually everything they published. Google RSPB and check the otter sections...see here for a start.... The RSPB: Events: World Wetlands Day - Otterly Fantastic - FULLY BOOKED

However, I was told some months back that this stance on otters was being sorely tested, in fact was rapidly changing, due to the fact that these predators were wiping out the RSPB's flagship preservation project, namely the ultra rare Bittern. It seems that our cuddly little friend was killing adult birds and scoffing their eggs as well...now there is a surprise.

Now the conjecture bit. Judging by the plethora of otter related droolings still to be seen on the RSPB sites, it would seem that this change of heart has once again been reversed. One can only assume that they have weighed up the options and decided that in order to swell their membership (and their coffers...and thus the salaries of their executives), their best course of action would be to throw their wholehearted support behind otters. Of course, that would mean that the previous jewel in their crown, the bittern, would need to be sacrificed...but that seems to quite possibly be a step they are willing to take to achieve that aim. With heavy hearts of course. Quite how the bittern, not to mention numerous other endangered species such as water voles etc., feel about this apparent decision, we will of course never know.

All pure conjecture of course....undoubtedly not a word of truth in it.

Cheers, Dave.
Click to expand...
Otter released by RSPCA near lakes in
 
Steve Stringer said:
Lee,

Superb post; you obviously understand that the only way forward is factual evidence and ad hoc petitions such as this, although well meaning, are a complete waste of time and ultimately damaging to our cause.

However I would like to put a slightly brighter note on a doom laden thread. Before the introduction of captive bred otters we had a "natural" population the same as any other apex predator. This natural population was as a result of natures own mechanism of the food and territory available. Man has interfered with this mechanism, but the results will be temporary as the ongoing introduction of otters will cease when the do gooder's have moved on to Beavers or Lynx or Brown Bears or Wolves or whatever lunatic idea they come up with next.

In 5 years time it will all be forgotten and back to "normal", but anglers will have moved on to a whole new raft of reasons why they are not catching as well as in the good old days. However their good old days in the future will be our today.........so why not just get out there and enjoy your fishing and the never ending battle of wits to try and catch a fish.

Steve
Click to expand...

I agree with much of what you say Steve, I loved Lee's post too :D However, Like Lee, I fear that the total protection thing may well come back to bite us all in the future....this will most likely not be a temporary issue, nor all blow over in five years.

Also, there are now many anglers out there who would love to take your advice to 'get out there and enjoy your fishing'...but can't. Basically because they no longer have any of their favourite species left to fish for in their local waters. Not everyone has the means to travel, and many resent being forced to fish for other species. Freedom of choice and all that.

Cheers, Dave.
 
David, from various reports the Wye catchment population never dropped nor increased, suggesting it was at carrying capacity and well balanced. If you look at how it's fished whilst the river has been at carrying capacity with native predators would you say that's an example of an ecosystem that is thriving? Certainly looks that way doesn't it?
 
Bobby Baker said:
David, from various reports the Wye catchment population never dropped nor increased, suggesting it was at carrying capacity and well balanced. If you look at how it's fished whilst the river has been at carrying capacity with native predators would you say that's an example of an ecosystem that is thriving? Certainly looks that way doesn't it?
Click to expand...
Balanced is the key word here, the Wye is a good example of how to get things right, something is going wrong elsewhere it seems.
 
Completely agree, there are bigger problems than a few hand reared otters being released on the quiet though.
 
David Gauntlett said:
Also, there are now many anglers out there who would love to take your advice to 'get out there and enjoy your fishing'...but can't. Basically because they no longer have any of their favourite species left to fish for in their local waters. Not everyone has the means to travel, and many resent being forced to fish for other species. Freedom of choice and all that.

Cheers, Dave.
Click to expand...

Dave,

I understand your post and I do sympathize with those anglers that find their local sport diminished. However if there is one thing I have learned in fishing and life in general and that is that change is constant.

At any one time the quality of fishing of any species in any environment is never constant, it is on the rise or on the fall, but never constant. That is because the so called "balance of nature" is a myth. All plants and creatures (including humans) are constantly struggling to dominate at the expense of others. So if the fishing of your favorite species is experiencing a cyclical downturn (Perch are a good example) then the angler has little choice but to fish for something else or sit at a keyboard and whinge.

I prefer to fish for something else.

Steve
 
Steve Stringer said:
Dave,

I understand your post and I do sympathize with those anglers that find their local sport diminished. However if there is one thing I have learned in fishing and life in general and that is that change is constant.

At any one time the quality of fishing of any species in any environment is never constant, it is on the rise or on the fall, but never constant. That is because the so called "balance of nature" is a myth. All plants and creatures (including humans) are constantly struggling to dominate at the expense of others. So if the fishing of your favorite species is experiencing a cyclical downturn (Perch are a good example) then the angler has little choice but to fish for something else or sit at a keyboard and whinge.

I prefer to fish for something else.

Steve
Click to expand...

Your choice Steve, and I respect that....not so sure about your happy acceptance of being forced into making that choice though. That could conceivably see you fishing for small carp in a muddy hole surrounded by an otter fence as a final option one day.

Fish certainly do experience cyclical downturns as you say. However, I am struggling to equate the act of being killed by an otter as a 'cyclical downturn'. I personally wish the otters would get on their cyclicals and 'ugger orf...but accept I may be in a minority there :D

Cheers, Dave.
 
Dear All,

The otter is an EU protected species, which means all the member countries within the EU have signed up to the wildlife directives, and as such I seriously doubt that the UK government could alter the otters status on its own.

One might easily assume that the otter predation issue remains an angling one but in reality far more species than fish are effected. Someone mentioned the RSPB and the issue of Bittern's? I can tell you that the RSPB will be worrying about more species coming under threat but are keeping their powder dry for now. Someone also mentioned money and the probable fact that certain organisations might be looking the other way for fear of having their coffers depleted?

The fact is most wildlife organisations make millions of pounds off the public's perception of wild creatures and are expert at pulling heart strings when it comes to raising money. The World Wildlife Fund for example offer three types of "Sea Otter Adoption Kits". You can choose the $25, the $50 or the $100 dollar one. Surprise surprise they also sell exactly the same adoption kits for river otters as well.

One will notice these prices are in dollars which denotes they are sold to Americans. So is the river otter protected in America? Yes in 21 states but in 27 others one can trap them presumably for their fur? You can also do the same in other provinces and 11 Canadian provinces and territories. I'm kind of guessing the WWF don't sell many otter adoption kits in these places?

Incidentally, one gets a cuddle toy in the 50 and 100 dollar adoption kits, its a furry otter called Plush. Problem is they are not fit for children under the age of 3 because they have small parts inside them. Their website warns;

"Warning: Choking Hazard - Adoption plushes contain small parts not for children under 3 years".

Now call me picky but one would assume that the WWF would get the cuddly toy bit right making sure they are cuddly but completely safe?

Bit like the real otter really. Cuddly looking but safe?

Regards,

Lee.
 
Last edited:
Lee Fletcher said:
Dear All,

The otter is an EU protected species, which means all the member countries within the EU have signed up to the wildlife directives, and as such I seriously doubt that the UK government could alter the otters status on its own.

One might easily assume that the otter predation issue remains an angling one but in reality far more species than fish are effected. Someone mentioned the RSPB and the issue of Bittern's? I can tell you that the RSPB will be worrying about more species coming under threat but are keeping their powder dry for now. Someone also mentioned money and the probable fact that certain organisations might be looking the other way for fear of having their coffers depleted?

The fact is most wildlife organisations make millions of pounds off the public's perception of wild creatures and are expert at pulling heart strings when it comes to raising money. The World Wildlife Fund for example offer three types of "Sea Otter Adoption Kits". You can choose the $25, the $50 or the $100 dollar one. Surprise surprise they also sell exactly the same adoption kits for river otters as well.

One will notice these prices are in dollars which denotes they are sold to Americans. So is the river otter protected in America? Yes in 21 states but in 27 others one can trap them presumably for their fur? You can also do the same in other provinces and 11 Canadian provinces and territories. I'm kind of guessing the WWF don't sell many otter adoption kits in these places?

Incidentally, one gets a cuddle toy in the 50 and 100 dollar adoption kits, its a furry otter called Plush. Problem is they are not fit for children under the age of 3 because they have small parts inside them. Their website warns;

"Warning: Choking Hazard - Adoption plushes contain small parts not for children under 3 years".

Now call me picky but one would assume that the WWF would get the cuddly toy bit right making sure they are cuddly but completely safe?

Bit like the real otter really. Cuddly looking but safe?

Regards,

Lee.
Click to expand...


Lee, do you know if, as a protected species, there is any necessity (by some appropriate UK authority) to maintain a record of otter numbers and distribution? I suspect not just because of the practical difficulty/cost of doing so.

Thanks.
 
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