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Otter Petition

Graham Young said:
No Ian not an expert in anything, but my opinions have formed from fishing rivers for over 50 years, I have never said I was speaking from a "position of fact" or" fisheries expertise" and for you to post that rather sarcastic remark is IMO below the belt and uncalled for.

I have seen the quality of river fishing decline during my lifetime to what it is now, that is a fact, I know there are ( and I mentioned it in my post) a myriad of reasons for this, amongst them ill informed reintroductions of otter where no pre introduction survey of the ability of the environment to support them were done.do you deny that otters have damaged fish stocks.

I have never said that fish stocks have been wiped out, if you are to quote me I would ask you to have the good manners not to put words in my mouth please.

If the EA surveys are to be believed everything is rosy and our rivers are doing fine, IMO they are not doing fine they are going downhill.

I post on these threads because I find them more interesting than the what wellies type of thread, if there is a problem with me not being an expert just an angler with his own opinions posting on a forum where opinions abound please let me know and I will stop.
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Graham,

I was genuinely asking, I do not know if you are a fisheries scientist, or if your info comes from one. I just think one has to be careful when posting opinion as many anglers will read such posts as fact and before you know it we have the rumour based mass hysteria we had a couple of years ago on the subject. Thankfully though, a large number of anglers have now taken on board many of the facts around these discussions and are better informed.

I think it is great that people have opinion, I think that drives research and fact finding, the only thing I will say is that before you listen totally to your own thoughts, do some real fact finding.

Here are a few starters:

Otter numbers were diminished by mans use of fertilisers in farming, those same pollutants also caused much harm to micro/macro organisms and fish stocks in our rivers. Once they were stopped the fish population recovered quickly. I actually grew up in the North West where most rivers were totally polluted and did not support any life until the mid eighties.
The recovery of otters has been an ongoing natural occurrence since the pollution was stopped, left alone it may have taken thirty years or more, however, the Otter Trust was set up by ill informed (we agree on that one) people and has speeded that process up by about 10 years. I would doubt there are any captive reared (you will notice I do not say hand reared as they were not hand reared, they were reared in captivity, with a view to protect their wild instincts) otters still surviving now. In addition to the captive reared otters, injured otters, those driven out by their parents, etc. Were re-located to help speed up the geographic spread.
As a protected species, it is now illegal to rear otters in captivity unless specifically licenced, it is also illegal to release captive bred otters into the wild. The RSPCA also issued guidance to it's officers a few years ago to kill any wounded otters reported or brought in by the public as the populations had reached saturation.

Over the same time period, we have seen lots of other threats arise, oestrogen probably being the biggest, but including cormorants, goosanders, over extraction, biblical flood events, dredging of spawning beds, etc, etc.

Regarding the EA surveys, why should they not be believed, anyone is welcome to attend when they are taking place, I have done a few times on local rivers and the results are normally eye opening. They do not prove that everything is rosy and the rivers are doing fine, in some cases they show many missing year classes from some species, they show growth in some species and reduction in others but this seems to be highly cyclical. What they do not show in many cases is a wholesale reduction in fish population (ensuring you look at a few years surveys as they are always in the same places and fish move around)

Apologies for not accurately stating your view on river populations, looking back you actually said on the brink, not wiped out.

Apologies also if this all comes across as an attack on you personally, it is not, I am merely using your posts as an opportunity to respond with some facts.
 
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Ian Crook said:
Graham,

I was genuinely asking, I do not know if you are a fisheries scientist, or if your info comes from one. I just think one has to be careful when posting opinion as many anglers will read such posts as fact and before you know it we have the rumour based mass hysteria we had a couple of years ago on the subject. Thankfully though, a large number of anglers have now taken on board many of the facts around these discussions and are better informed.

I think it is great that people have opinion, I think that drives research and fact finding, the only thing I will say is that before you listen totally to your own thoughts, do some real fact finding.

Here are a few starters:

Otter numbers were diminished by mans use of fertilisers in farming, those same pollutants also caused much harm to micro/macro organisms and fish stocks in our rivers. Once they were stopped the fish population recovered quickly. I actually grew up in the North West where most rivers were totally polluted and did not support any life until the mid eighties.
The recovery of otters has been an ongoing natural occurrence since the pollution was stopped, left alone it may have taken thirty years or more, however, the Otter Trust was set up by ill informed (we agree on that one) people and has speeded that process up by about 10 years. I would doubt there are any captive reared (you will notice I do not say hand reared as they were not hand reared, they were reared in captivity, with a view to protect their wild instincts) otters still surviving now. In addition to the captive reared otters, injured otters, those driven out by their parents, etc. Were re-located to help speed up the geographic spread.
As a protected species, it is now illegal to rear otters in captivity unless specifically licenced, it is also illegal to release captive bred otters into the wild. The RSPCA also issued guidance to it's officers a few years ago to kill any wounded otters reported or brought in by the public as the populations had reached saturation.

Over the same time period, we have seen lots of other threats arise, oestrogen probably being the biggest, but including cormorants, goosanders, over extraction, biblical flood events, dredging of spawning beds, etc, etc.

Regarding the EA surveys, why should they not be believed, anyone is welcome to attend when they are taking place, I have done a few times on local rivers and the results are normally eye opening. They do not prove that everything is rosy and the rivers are doing fine, in some cases they show many missing year classes from some species, they show growth in some species and reduction in others but this seems to be highly cyclical. What they do not show in many cases is a wholesale reduction in fish population (ensuring you look at a few years surveys as they are always in the same places and fish move around)

Apologies for not accurately stating your view on river populations, looking back you actually said on the brink, not wiped out.

Apologies also if this all comes across as an attack on you personally, it is not, I am merely using your posts as an opportunity to respond with some facts.
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The fact that otters were recovering quite nicely on there own (a fact that even the otter trust acknowledged) should have been enough to not start reintroducing otters, whether they were hand reared or captive reared is a mute point that the ones that were reared in such ways were not afraid of humans would suggest that the ones rearing them failed in that regard, I would agree that there probably are none of the original ones left but their off spring seem to have inherited this trait from their parents.

None of what was wrong with our waters that you mentioned was taken into consideration by the otter trust, natural England or the EA in there headlong rush to artificially increase the numbers of predators in the rivers.

I agree with what you have said about some of the things that are wrong with our rivers and it would take a page to list them all, I was aware of why otter numbers dropped but I come back to the point which you acknowledge that there was no need for reintroductions. Unfortunately they are here now and spreading, some rivers such as the Ribble that was mentioned seem to be doing fine, other such as the small ones I fish are not.

The reason why I get so peed off about otters is not the creatures themselves but the fact that we as anglers always come bottom of the pile, IMO other things were far more pressing before even thinking of introducing an apex predator to eco systems that were already under huge pressure.

I am very cynical when it comes to the EA and their reports, that's not to say all they do is bad but you know what is said about statistic's.

Oh by the way you and others were correct in that the new FSAs being employed by the trust are not being paid for by the trust but by DEFRA and the EA, perhaps it would have been better if the statement said that rather than leave it to interpretation.


Now back to the decorating :mad:
 
Hi Ian
I was told, heresay again i know, that the number of Barbel in the Loddon, from the surveys carried out by the EA using electro fishing i assume ( a terribly in exact science at the bet of times ) had shown a marked decrease in Barbel numbers, between 2011 and 2012 i was told numbers down 40%.
Do the EA readily supply the info or do you have to use the FOI act?
I have never actually seen them publish anything

cheers rob
 
Robert,

You need to look over about a five year period to get a real idea, the surveys are done on about 50m stretches and only catch what happens to be in that 50m stretch at the time, one year there might be a large shoal of bream or barbel or chub, another year only one or two, so you need to look at all the surveys at the different sites and take an average over about 5 years to get a worthwhile result. Not sure if they are published nationally but certainly available from local EA Fisheries offices. I get them through the Loddon Consultative, in fact the last few years are probably on the Loddon Consultative website.
 
As always a lot of varied opinions on the otter and what damage it has or hasn't done. Andrew hasn't seen so much on his waters and he will, like all of us, relate what he sees. But I feel the true yardstick for individual rivers is the angler who knows them intimately. Therefore I take most notice of the views of people like John Everard regarding the Upper Thames and Windrush, Trefor West regarding the Cherwell and Bristol Avon, Chris Turnbull the Wensum etc., etc. If you can find one of these well respected & experienced anglers claiming the otter issue is exaggerated I would be very surprised.

By the same token I would equally respect Andrews point of view on what his local rivers are telling him
 
Thank you Alex. I did say I would leave it but feel it's necessary to point out I fully understand what has happened on many rivers which have been blessed by a complete lack of apex predators, poor fry recruitment and a few helpful stockings from Calverton. For the last decade or two those rivers have been producing specimen fish beyond anything ever seen before - my entire youth was spent dreaming of a Barbel to beat the Hampshire Avon 'mid' 14 which held the national record for so long but such a fish would be hardly worth a mention now. Clearly not a 'natural' state and it's obvious that bubble was due to burst Otters or not. My point regarding the Wye and Ribble is simple - both rivers have always had Otters present and both have plenty of fish to catch - neither will suffer from any introductions because the resident dog will make short work of any 'tame' intrudors if they are male, or breed with them if they are female! Their offspring will spread - from what I've read the increase in Otter numbers seen on my old North Yorkshire haunts Ouse, Nidd, Wharfe, Swale is largely due to the success of the Ribble Otters offspring spreading their wings to the other side of the Pennines. I'm well aware 'River Keepers' of the past would give one both barrels - I'm also aware most of the trout and salmon men of days gone by would happily toss any coarse fish caught on their water up the bank - How much did that practice affect fish stocks? We have to move on, accept the Otter - like it or not they are here to stay.
 
They will be reintroducing Otters again in the not so far future..The only reason they were introduced in the first place was so various groups and the EA could get their hands on the money that was offered by the EU..
Once a evalution has been done on flood affected rivers they will conclude that Otters have taken a bashing and guess what will happen...
THEY WILL REINTRODUCE MORE...
So to conclude, we are wasting our time with petitions and unfortunately will just have to sit on our hands and watch what happens..
Sad, but true i am affraid..:(
 
Andrew Boyne said:
from what I've read the increase in Otter numbers seen on my old North Yorkshire haunts Ouse, Nidd, Wharfe, Swale is largely due to the success of the Ribble Otters offspring spreading their wings to the other side of the Pennines.
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The Swale has never lacked for otters in the thirty plus years I've been fishing it, well before the reintroductions that were documented. I strongly suspect that this may been the reason that other rivers and stillwaters in close proximity to it are reputed to have suffered quite badly. In the nineties we still had otter introductions on the Swale, but I believe that these animals will mostly have been killed or forced out by the existing otter population. In addition, you'll have the offspring of the existing population being forced out of existing otter territories to find patches of their own.

Bar the usual cyclical fluctuations of fish stocks, I don't really believe that the Swale has seen any difference in the impact of otters. As far as the Swale is concerned, the ill conceived peat channel cutting of 70s and 80s has had far, far greater negative impact on the river than a normal population of wild otters ever could. However, introductions or not, I wouldn't want to be the owner of an unfenced and overstocked stillwater within 10-15 miles of the Swale.
 
robert, a friend of mine years ago used to breed and release owls,sensibly or so he thought, he got nicked several times but still carried on, the moral behind this post is.... we had one in our big oak tree at bottom of garden to which he must have put one because most people wouldnt have known about our tree as it was never listed, in our garden at the time we had lots and i mean lots of hedgehogs
within 3 years there wasnt a hedgehog to be seen, even our keen nosey dog didnt try sniifing em out, why? because the owl had probable killed and ate the lot over that period of around 3 yeays or more, the owl never found a mate so just one single owl destroyed generations of hedgehogs....
if1 individual owl did that how many fish would a pair of otters kill and maybe eat including their offspring in 3 years and growing youngsters which move up and downstream unmolested, i reckon in 10 years the river for miles and miles would be fishless of any decent sized fish, sad situation brought about by ignorant releasing of otters

oh and by the way i love owls in the wild
 
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John Walker said:
robert, a friend of mine years ago used to breed and release owls,sensibly or so he thought, he got nicked several times but still carried on, the moral behind this post is.... we had one in our big oak tree at bottom of garden to which he must have put one because most people wouldnt have known about our tree as it was never listed, in our garden at the time we had lots and i mean lots of hedgehogs
within 3 years there wasnt a hedgehog to be seen, even our keen nosey dog didnt try sniifing em out, why? because the owl had probable killed and ate the lot over that period of around 3 yeays or more, the owl never found a mate so just one single owl destroyed generations of hedgehogs....
if1 individual owl did that how many fish would a pair of otters kill and maybe eat including their offspring in 3 years and growing youngsters which move up and downstream unmolested, i reckon in 10 years the river for miles and miles would be fishless of any decent sized fish, sad situation brought about by ignorant releasing of otters

oh and by the way i love owls in the wild
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Thanls John that was a hoot of a read:D
 
Robert Buttress said:
Lets put this in prospective, otters were reintroduced into areas, without any surveys done, to ensure a balanced enviroment, this has now been admitted by the people who released them, also these captive bred animals have no fear of humans, so what people are seeing is not a wild otter, ok as they breed we will get the true otter, if they can find enough to eat. The usual diet of otters used to be eels, which through various reasons, are almost extinct, so the otters have turned to other sources of food, this will include fish in lakes, that people have introduced for the angling trade, now a farmer is allowed to protect his livelyhood, but a fisheries owner is not? Also an otter will kill and only partially eat a large fish, before going on to repeat this, a bit like a fox in a hen house. So beautiful they might be, but they are not the cuddly creatures we are led to believe.

Signed with pleasure:)

167sh37.jpg
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I'm not sure that's particularly accurate Robert. Otters have up to a max life expectancy of 10 years in the wild. The otter release programme was carried out between 1983 and 1999. Most of, if not all, of those captive bred and released otters are long dead.

However otters do appear to have become more tolerant of humans and maybe it is because of being direct offspring of these much tamer released ones. Who knows? It could be that they have had to become more tolerant of humans. Still I do see them as another nail in the coffin unfortunately.

I'm not sure that on their own they are the biggest threat to angling. I think we have far bigger problems than that.
 
John Walker said:
robert, a friend of mine years ago used to breed and release owls,sensibly or so he thought, he got nicked several times but still carried on, the moral behind this post is.... we had one in our big oak tree at bottom of garden to which he must have put one because most people wouldnt have known about our tree as it was never listed, in our garden at the time we had lots and i mean lots of hedgehogs
within 3 years there wasnt a hedgehog to be seen, even our keen nosey dog didnt try sniifing em out, why? because the owl had probable killed and ate the lot over that period of around 3 yeays or more, the owl never found a mate so just one single owl destroyed generations of hedgehogs....
if1 individual owl did that how many fish would a pair of otters kill and maybe eat including their offspring in 3 years and growing youngsters which move up and downstream unmolested, i reckon in 10 years the river for miles and miles would be fishless of any decent sized fish, sad situation brought about by ignorant releasing of otters

oh and by the way i love owls in the wild
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John,

I don't think many people fully appreciate how vicious owls can be. Apparently DEFRA have been investigating the re-introduction of the Eurasian Eagle Owl into Somerset as an experiment to assess whether this might help control the badger population in the war against Bovine TB

Steve
 
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