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Brazen Otter

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Only took about 15 mins Dave.

Looks like those guys are no longer needed.Nature always finds a way!!

MallardDog01_zpsf2188d50.jpg~original
 
Nature finds a way if it's not messed about with by humans, 2 wrongs don't make a right, It was wrong to reintroduce Otters end of!
 
Steve Stringer said:
As you say David nothing is going to get the go ahead
Individual clubs and fishery owners do not need the "go ahead" from anyone; they just go ahead.

Where will the money come from to fund it?
Individual clubs and fishery owners

Would the taxpayer be expected to pay for it ?
No

and would any goverment give the go ahead for such a scheme ?
Involving Government just means that nothing will ever get done

The Badger cull in Gloucestershire and Somerset has cost millions so far ?
Annoying isn't it?

With all the rivers in the UK where would you start the cull ?
Places with an otter problem springs to mind

and who would carry out the cull ?
See above

Would you need a licence/ Permit ? and what would the cost of a licence / Permit be ? and who would pay for it
No, the "bang them on the head solution" is remarkably light on red tape"

I do not expect anyone who is under the age of 35 to agree for one minute with anything I post. However there are some of you who are old enough to remember when kids used to roam free all day long discovering the environment around them and getting into all sorts of scrapes. Nicking cigarettes, poaching fish, making soap box carts, making dens, playing with knives and guns and trespassing wherever we wanted. All or most of it illegal and dangerous.......how did we ever manage to survive? Quite simple really; we were not the obese, brain dead, risk adverse, computer slaves of today, but savvy and full of common sense.

Much of modern society is wonderful and much better than it was. But somewhere along the line we have paid a terrible price and have ended up in this sterile all conforming world we have now.

It doesn't have to be like this, even Mr Smart must have a soul deep down inside him somewhere.........time to break out and live a little......and take care of business ourselves

Steve
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Take care of the business ourselves? What are twaddle you talk, but you not only talk on a Angling Forum that we as anglers should take the law into our own hands and kill the Otter but you are now banging on about all the other ills of society...and dump it on this thread.

Can you imagine if you will, for one minute how that would affect Angling, that we as Anglers took the law into our own hands, that would be tantamount to shooting the Scottish Panda and it's mate, and taking out the new born cub too, are you serious?

Oh yes as an aside I remember the Karts as a kid and all the non red tape, the no computer society we as kids lived in, and also I remember the darker side to then too, thing is about old men the always look back and think life was better then, fact is it wasn't really.

But if you must have this need to kill Otter, just get on with it and please don't implicate the rest of us that still have a few marbles left to swap.
 
David Hall said:
Nature finds a way if it's not messed about with by humans, 2 wrongs don't make a right, It was wrong to reintroduce Otters end of!
Click to expand...

End of ? What does that mean, that you opinion is the only one that counts...End Of, I hate that expression, but it's its not End Of, plenty of folk will argue that the Otter belongs in our Rivers, as it was here from the beginning, before man, they will argue that man was the demise of the Otter, so therefore it would be right to place the Otter back into the environment, that might not fit our perception of the environment, a sterile place to catch big barbel that have no natural predators?

Perhaps then you might consider an easier option, the commercial fishery?
 
Man is The apex predator on this planet, and when he no longer performs this role, it can create imbalance in nature, just as it can when he is over zealous in this role. To leave otters to multiply uncontrolled is irresponsible, and how it will all end is not known as never before have we lived in an era where we just did nothing. I suspect control will eventually be brought in when the knock on effect of having fishless rivers is realised - no kingfishers etc. How long this will take is anyone's guess, as there are still plenty of anglers who are against control at the moment, never mind members of the general public. Some rivers are much more able to sustain otter populations than others, whilst some appear more able simply because they have always been controlled on these rivers, and continue to be.

Nick C
 
Why is it that on this forum some people feel the need to try to back up their opinions with name calling towards those that have opposing views?

Everyone has a right to an opinion but opinions are always biased by the very fact that they are just opinions.
 
Nick Coulthurst said:
Man is The apex predator on this planet, and when he no longer performs this role, it can create imbalance in nature, just as it can when he is over zealous in this role. To leave otters to multiply uncontrolled is irresponsible, and how it will all end is not known as never before have we lived in an era where we just did nothing. I suspect control will eventually be brought in when the knock on effect of having fishless rivers is realised - no kingfishers etc. How long this will take is anyone's guess, as there are still plenty of anglers who are against control at the moment, never mind members of the general public. Some rivers are much more able to sustain otter populations than others, whilst some appear more able simply because they have always been controlled on these rivers, and continue to be.

Nick C
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Sensible post.
 
Man is an apex predator as well! There'll be calls to start culling them next!
Man hasn't been in this country that long, geologically speaking, certainly not in comparison to the otter.
 
Neil Smart said:
End of ? What does that mean, that you opinion is the only one that counts...End Of, I hate that expression, but it's its not End Of, plenty of folk will argue that the Otter belongs in our Rivers, as it was here from the beginning, before man, they will argue that man was the demise of the Otter, so therefore it would be right to place the Otter back into the environment, that might not fit our perception of the environment, a sterile place to catch big barbel that have no natural predators?

Perhaps then you might consider an easier option, the commercial fishery?
Click to expand...

And I don't really give a stuff what you like or don't, Irreverent that point.
 
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David Hall said:
And I don't really give a stuff what you like or don't, Irreverent that point.
Click to expand...

Just what I thought, if you read my post I was not talking of me but of the general public and their perception of the Otter as part of the landscape, I am afraid because we are anglers and have a vested interest in catching fish it would not be enough to convince most that the Otter should go.

However you don't ' give a stuff' do you?

You have opted for the very obvious no brainer option. :rolleyes:
 
The comments by some posters on this thread have piqued my curiosity. Would all those awfully decent, heart warming chaps who are now staunch otter protectors, bleating on about 'otters rights'.... please answer a few questions that are puzzling me?

If otters are such delightful creatures, have an absolute right to be here (apparently even more right than we have to be on rivers), were around before man, deserve total protection....and all that other stuff you keep spouting, then........Where were you all when they were being brought to the edge of extinction by mans meddling/chemical mayhem originally? Were you up in arms then? What did you do help stop their demise back then? Were you on forums spouting all this stuff then? No?..................Then why now? What has made them so different, so special to you now?

Another thing that puzzles me...'right to survive'.

Otters are busily killing the few remaining, already highly endangered water voles (that is fact), a species that many people have put untold effort, time and money into trying to bring back from the edge of extinction.

They have killed some of the few remaining bittern (ditto the water vole story on that).

Eels are on the edge too...it is deemed unlikely that they will survive whatever mystery problem it is that is decimating their numbers. The few that remain will undoubtedly make tasty snacks, as otters love them.

They ARE virtually wiping out certain species of fish in some rivers/lakes etc., either those rivers where man made issues have reduced the population to stragglers, or enclosed, still water environments

Several species of frogs, toads and newts, other water fowl, small mammals etc, etc., are also on the endangered list. These critters have ALL always been a part, some more so than others...of the otters diet.

Many others species will undoubtedly join the unhappy condition of being 'endangered species', or worse, once otter numbers increase.

Apart from all being on the opportunist feeding otters menu, and being on the endangered list, these critters share one other distinction. They are ALL indigenous species, all natural denizens of our waterways....and thy have all been here at least as long as otters. SURELY then, they have the same right to be here, the same right to survive, to be protected....as otters....don't they?

Sadly, many (not all....yet) of our rivers are in a parlous state. We have brought them to their knees by all the nasty means we are all well aware off. In those conditions, the fish that are struggling to survive, will not be able to cope with the added onslaught of increasing numbers of otters and other predators. Once fish inevitably become thin on the ground (or in the water I should say) all those other species mentioned above will become a greater and greater part of the otters diet. You can't blame the otter for that, it is only doing whatever it needs to do to survive.

But, for the first time in history....otters are totally protected. They WILL increase in numbers as never before, as a result of that. LONG, LONG before the 'natural, self regulation of numbers' you lot keep banging on about can occur, they will have wiped out many of those other species in their desperate bid to survive. They won't have to kill many to do it, because so many species are on the edge now anyway....but do it they will...you all know that as well as I.

So....WHY are the rights of otters greater than the rights of all the other species that will cease to exist because you demand we totally protect otters? Will you be wailing on this forum about their demise? The neglect of their rights? No?....WHY?

Please do explain...I genuinely am curious.

Cheers, Dave.
 
David Gauntlett said:
please answer a few questions that are puzzling me?

If otters are such delightful creatures, have an absolute right to be here (apparently even more right than we have to be on rivers), were around before man, deserve total protection....and all that other stuff you keep spouting, then........Where were you all when they were being brought to the edge of extinction by mans meddling/chemical mayhem originally? Were you up in arms then? What did you do help stop their demise back then? Were you on forums spouting all this stuff then? No?..................Then why now? What has made them so different, so special to you now?

Please do explain...I genuinely am curious.

Cheers, Dave.
Click to expand...

Easy one that Dave! They were all rolling around in romper suits spreading porridge all over their face and soiling their nappies! ;)

Let's start it here - Equal rights for otters and barbel!
 
There are a million and one ecological disasters going on Dave, you want me to start threads on all of them? I'm happy to champion anything in nature that needs help. The mink has been slowly munching through water voles long before the otter, in fact it is widely considered a good thing the otter being back as they're supposed to push mink out.
I'm afraid like Andrew says I was probably running around in my romper suit when they first became endangered.
My point in all this, as I've said a few times now, it's that otters are probably the least of our problems on rivers long term, yet they gather the most moans. I've said several times bigger problems need sorting out then otters won't be a problem, but nobody's interested. Kill otters, it's easy, quick fix, can't be arsed with the other things, too much like hard work, takes too long, they just want to get back to catching easy Barbel in sterile environments, not interested in anything else.
 
Dave, I have tried to word my views carefully in that as an angler like us all on here I am as concerned as anyone as to the damage the Otter is causing, but the rhetoric by some is that we should as Anglers take things into our own hands and kill the Otter, that route would possibly me more damaging to Angling than any Otter could.

The fact that we no longer have the the Rivers that produced the fish is of a huge concern, but as to what can be done I am not sure, perhaps things might have to get worse before we start winning the hearts and minds of those who can change things.

It was naive to think that such an apex predator would not colonise so quickly and wreak havoc on fish stocks, but even though this is fact, rarely do I hear other from the Angling fraternity that this is the case, but we all know fish are low on the pecking order when it comes to the superstars of protection, (Salmon apart) and it seems fish are merely considered a food source, and those that angle for fish are just a bit odd.

'Did you know they throw them back?'

As I have said we need to exert more pressure, as a group we have a huge bargaining tool the Rod Licence.
 
Rhys Perry said:
There are a million and one ecological disasters going on Dave, you want me to start threads on all of them? I'm happy to champion anything in nature that needs help. The mink has been slowly munching through water voles long before the otter, in fact it is widely considered a good thing the otter being back as they're supposed to push mink out.
I'm afraid like Andrew says I was probably running around in my romper suit when they first became endangered.
My point in all this, as I've said a few times now, it's that otters are probably the least of our problems on rivers long term, yet they gather the most moans. I've said several times bigger problems need sorting out then otters won't be a problem, but nobody's interested. Kill otters, it's easy, quick fix, can't be arsed with the other things, too much like hard work, takes too long, they just want to get back to catching easy Barbel in sterile environments, not interested in anything else.
Click to expand...

Got to say Rhys I agree with all of that.
 
Rhys Perry said:
There are a million and one ecological disasters going on Dave, you want me to start threads on all of them? I'm happy to champion anything in nature that needs help. The mink has been slowly munching through water voles long before the otter, in fact it is widely considered a good thing the otter being back as they're supposed to push mink out.
I'm afraid like Andrew says I was probably running around in my romper suit when they first became endangered.
My point in all this, as I've said a few times now, it's that otters are probably the least of our problems on rivers long term, yet they gather the most moans. I've said several times bigger problems need sorting out then otters won't be a problem, but nobody's interested. Kill otters, it's easy, quick fix, can't be arsed with the other things, too much like hard work, takes too long, they just want to get back to catching easy Barbel in sterile environments, not interested in anything else.
Click to expand...
+

Some good points Rhys and well put. The fact that the otter is the tip of the iceberg has not lessened it's immediate and lethal impact on small rivers though, and that is why it appears to be the main culprit as opposed to being the straw that broke the camels back. Without a doubt the Windrush and Cherwell have been not even shadows of their former selves since otters put in an appearance. Would we have got to this stage anyway without the otters hurrying things up? Hard to say really but probably we would.

To me the biggest problems with river fishing seemed to set in after the 2007 floods. Very few rivers were ever the same again and nobody has come up with the answers to that.
 
Alex Gowney said:
+

Would we have got to this stage anyway without the otters hurrying things up? Hard to say really but probably we would.
Click to expand...

A point I made in a previous post that was conveniently ignored. Didn't matter then of course
as the specimen fishing was great.
 
Some on here seem to think that before otters were reintroduced catching Barbel on all rivers was "easy fishing" I can assure them that it wasn't, on some it was hard but enjoyable, now those hard waters have become almost impossible.

It would also seem that these posters want the fishing for all to be difficult with no easy fishing, I don't understand why.


Dave brilliant post :)
 
Neil Smart said:
Take care of the business ourselves? What are twaddle you talk, but you not only talk on a Angling Forum that we as anglers should take the law into our own hands and kill the Otter but you are now banging on about all the other ills of society...and dump it on this thread.

Can you imagine if you will, for one minute how that would affect Angling, that we as Anglers took the law into our own hands, that would be tantamount to shooting the Scottish Panda and it's mate, and taking out the new born cub too, are you serious?

Oh yes as an aside I remember the Karts as a kid and all the non red tape, the no computer society we as kids lived in, and also I remember the darker side to then too, thing is about old men the always look back and think life was better then, fact is it wasn't really.

But if you must have this need to kill Otter, just get on with it and please don't implicate the rest of us that still have a few marbles left to swap.
Click to expand...

Mr Oxymoron,

I always try to post about issues rather than people and personalities and I believe everybody is entitled to an opinion no matter how daft I personally think it is. Therefore I try no to get into the name calling exchanges that occasionally erupt on BFW.

However I am going to make an exception for you just this once.

You are a self opinionated, offensive, pompous windbag.

Steve
 
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