Nick Anderson
No Longer a Member
Erect some kind of fence I suppose
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Nick Anderson
No Longer a Member
I find it quite disturbing that the mentality of some is to just kill it! I find it on par with the match angler's attitude towards pike taking their precious roach and silvers. Just knock it on the ed mate. Graham you proposed a good argument for neutering the females, very commendable and totally agree with it. But when you have people going gooey eyed over a seal ripping apart barbel, pike and salmon, we, as anglers have a hard case to turn around to educate the public that apex predators can decimate stocks.
I feel that posts of trap it kill it or knock it on the ed wiv an ammer do nothing to promote the thinking anglers who are in tune with the environment. In fact it will do totally the opposite.
I feel that posts of trap it kill it or knock it on the ed wiv an ammer do nothing to promote the thinking anglers who are in tune with the environment. In fact it will do totally the opposite.
Graham Young
Senior Member
Nick Anderson
No Longer a Member
Joe Fletcher
No Longer a Member
David I think you will find its Mink that have nearly brought the Water Vole to extiction and as you say David the Eel is on the edge .
Simple solution call for a ban on Elver fishing and stop the export of Elvers to the Far East and net and introduce Elvers to as many rivers across the UK as possible ?
Nick Anderson
No Longer a Member
Joe,
Well put. The mink have decimated many riverside and hedgerow species. The elver fishing is a very clandestine group of what are river rapists! It really is a cutthroat business, shotguns etc! Where isthe EA When we need them, let alone the dangling trust!
Jim Foxall
Senior Member
As a group we are too emotional. We need a cool head and logic. We can do it, and there is no doubt that the tide has turned on "Black Death". It's been a slog, but pretty well 99% of anglers have supported control of these birds. And we have made great strides with revised legislation. This does not seem to be the case with otters with a very wide spectrum of views. If we are prepared to control cormorant numbers then why aren't we prepared to consider controlling otter numbers where appropriate? There were always people who were prepared to control cormorants illegally and there will be people who will do the same with otters. If only we could go forward with a united voice rather than squabbling amongst ourselves. If we could agree a strategy then we might be in a position to control otter numbers where it is deemed necessary. Not for one moment will this be an easy task. But one thing is for certain we need to pull together a hell of a lot better than we are doing currently and come up with a much more united strategy.
Just one point in relation to an earlier post. I quite like foxes. But if I found my chicken coop raided by a fox and a dozen chickens beheaded, I'm afraid my views on said fox would be less than charitable. And why do "we" control foxes?
Just one point in relation to an earlier post. I quite like foxes. But if I found my chicken coop raided by a fox and a dozen chickens beheaded, I'm afraid my views on said fox would be less than charitable. And why do "we" control foxes?
Nick Anderson
No Longer a Member
Jim, foxes are legally allowed to be controlled. By anyone with authority to shoot on that land or by others. Otters are LEGALLY PROTECTED!
Jim Foxall
Senior Member
Fair play Nick. But cormorants were quite strongly protected. Much less so now. Nothing is static and the point that I was trying to make is that the protection status of otters could change over time. The Establishment, not the serfs, make the rules of what is protected and what isn't. Don't worry, I strongly suspect there would be a rapid drop in otter numbers if they were threatening the exclusive salmon beats. I suspect one of the reasons that goosanders copped it was because of the damage caused to salmon parr stocks. And who put foxes on general licence? Not the public at large but the landowners, deinitely not the serfs. This Cloudy Bay Sav Blanc is quite superb. Anyway, to make changes needs a powerful lobby. Coarse anglers don't fit that category. Unless we can speak with a united voice, forget it and join the hunt instead.
Graham Young
Senior Member
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Andrew Boyne
Senior Member
I love that phrase 'controlling predators' - the politically correct way of saying 'kill 'em all'! I'd like to know how many Otters they would allow on a stretch of river before they felt the need to control their numbers. I have a feeling that those you speak of Graham feel that 1 is too many.
Graham Young
Senior Member
No that's wrong Andrew, the phrase I used says just what it means, please do not twist what I have posted into phrases that you want to use.
I doubt that anyone on this thread wants to "kill em all" but a balance is needed and at the moment there isn't one, otter numbers have been artificially manipulated to a state where the predator prey balance is heavily weighted towards the predator, that cannot be allowed to continue if any sort of balance is to be maintained for both.
How many otters on a stretch? whatever can easily be supported by the environment on that stretch without wiping out the prey species before moving on to repeat the action all over again. On some rivers that is none as the environment couldn't support them when they were introduced there in the first place, on other probably larger rivers its as I said at the beginning of this paragraph.
All of this is just my opinion.
Kevin Daly
Senior Member
The Sustainable Eel Group. In the general demise of the eel this group of highly motivated conversationalists have done their utmost to maintain eel numbers while continuing to fish commercially for them.
That will be all pigs fed, watered and ready to fly then.
However the greatest threat to the survival of the eel is not the SEG, it is a far more callous operator than them. It is Mother Nature, for the last ten years or so the north Atlantic drift has for reasons best known to its self turned left sooner than it used to and nipped up the Irish west coast taking most of the glass eels with it and away from our rivers. This year and again the real scientists studying the eel are clueless why the drift resumed its previous course and the SEG are doing laps of honour claiming they alone have saved the eel, UK industry, the world and all inhabitants from a fate worse than death. They have done this by transferring part of their catch to upstream of manmade barriers. They are very cagy about the percentage they release and keep no accountable figures audit trail or have any proof whatsoever they do this.
There are items here that do not bear too much scrutiny. Firstly as part of their fishing licence requirement they are required to partake in this highly dubious release program, why do they not keep auditable records and why don’t the licensing authority police this. Why do eels now need this help, The Juvenile Severn eels have been passing the Severn weirs year on year since god were a lad. Glass eels are incredibly fragile, how does cramming thousands of them in a net help them survive.
Answers on a postcard to,
Owen Paterson
DEFRA
The Big House
Westminster
That will be all pigs fed, watered and ready to fly then.
However the greatest threat to the survival of the eel is not the SEG, it is a far more callous operator than them. It is Mother Nature, for the last ten years or so the north Atlantic drift has for reasons best known to its self turned left sooner than it used to and nipped up the Irish west coast taking most of the glass eels with it and away from our rivers. This year and again the real scientists studying the eel are clueless why the drift resumed its previous course and the SEG are doing laps of honour claiming they alone have saved the eel, UK industry, the world and all inhabitants from a fate worse than death. They have done this by transferring part of their catch to upstream of manmade barriers. They are very cagy about the percentage they release and keep no accountable figures audit trail or have any proof whatsoever they do this.
There are items here that do not bear too much scrutiny. Firstly as part of their fishing licence requirement they are required to partake in this highly dubious release program, why do they not keep auditable records and why don’t the licensing authority police this. Why do eels now need this help, The Juvenile Severn eels have been passing the Severn weirs year on year since god were a lad. Glass eels are incredibly fragile, how does cramming thousands of them in a net help them survive.
Answers on a postcard to,
Owen Paterson
DEFRA
The Big House
Westminster
Rhys Perry
Senior Member
I'm not convinced.
Rhys Perry
Senior Member
Interesting this, like you say why would they need to be 'helped upstream' if they can do this naturally? Unless of course they're stopping the lot so this act of 'kindness' is the only way any are getting through?
Graham Young
Senior Member
David Gauntlett
Senior Member
I like that Joe, and there is a lot of truth to it. The second sentence is particularly accurate to my mind....but there is far too much money involved in elver fishing....and too many back-handers involved for anything effective to be done to regulate it.
As far as water voles go, I rather think that the last words they utter on their way down the otters throat will not be "Thank god you are not a mink". It doesn't matter a lot which of the these killers (both present, at least in part, due to mans meddling) gets them really...dead is dead.
Whatever, my main grump on this issue is this. While I quite agree that otters ARE a natural, indigenous species to this country, that doesn't actually give them any special status in practical terms. This 'right to be here' thing is a fallacy, a red herring thrown into the ring every time this issue comes up...generally because those quoting it saw it somewhere before...and it sounds right.
One poster pointed out earlier that some 'nutters' want to reintroduce wolves. That is a fact, as are re-introduced beavers now living in Scotland. Bears and wild boar used to roam the UK freely in the dim, distant past...and there have been mutterings from some about experimental re-introductions of these to certain areas too. That probably will never occur...but some would try it, if they could.
Obviously the reason why most of the wilder ideas won't come to fruition (at least to any noticeable extent) is because the animals concerned represent a danger to man...but the idea of re-introducing them is typical of the woolly headed, self important nutters that sometimes seem to have influence way beyond that which their numbers would suggest. In other cases (and the beaver experiment will probably fizzle because of this)...they do things that are not convenient. They aren't dangerous...but they CAN be a pest. And that brings us neatly back to otters, doesn't it?
It would seem that history proves that being a 'natural, indigenous British species' dose NOT actually carry with it any inferred rights on an animal at all. If for some reason they don't fit in, if their actions in any way 'inconvenience' us, introduce the mildest degree of nuisance value to interrupt our rush towards the politically correct, sterile nanny state....then we exterminate them....simple as that. We have ALWAYS done that to one degree or another....it is what being THE apex predator is all about. BUT...the otter has suddenly become a status symbol, our 'look what we've done' icon. It is now to be protected totally, being given a status that is quite unique.
It doesn't require TOO much brain power to work out where this latest lurch into la-la land thinking will end up. It will of course fizzle out eventually, as all these self indulgent moments of madness always do. Once the novelty value has worn off, the whole idea of total protection will be exposed for what it is...and things will quietly return to sane levels of management. All that will remain to be done then will be to count the cost of this latest ego trip. It won't be pretty....but since when have we allowed past mistakes to cloud our arrogant views on life.
Whatever.
Cheers, Dave.
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Joe Fletcher
No Longer a Member
Graham as you say lots of illegal actions taking place on moors and in woods and yes there have been prosecutions . So these guys know what they are doing ? So its ok for game keepers to poison birds of prey on shooting estates because these natural predators are taking grouse and Pheasant
Just google game keepers poisoning birds of prey ? and you will find loads of cases where there have been prosecutions
Gamekeeper heavily fined for poisoning buzzard | News | Birdwatch Magazine
If you read the link there was a online petition signed by over 23,000 members of the public in just over 2 weeks against lobbying of the Scottish goverment for allowing licences for the control of Buzzards to protect the release of Pheasants .
How long would it take for the same thing here to happen here when it becomes public knowledge that we as anglers want to start culling Otters
Perhaps we as Anglers we should go down the same path as the game keepers and take the law in to our own hands as some people have suggested .
Graham Young
Senior Member
Graham as you say lots of illegal actions taking place on moors and in woods and yes there have been prosecutions . So these guys know what they are doing ? So its ok for game keepers to poison birds of prey on shooting estates because these natural predators are taking grouse and Pheasant
Just google game keepers poisoning birds of prey ? and you will find loads of cases where there have been prosecutions
Gamekeeper heavily fined for poisoning buzzard | News | Birdwatch Magazine
If you read the link there was a online petition signed by over 23,000 members of the public in just over 2 weeks against lobbying of the Scottish goverment for allowing licences for the control of Buzzards to protect the release of Pheasants .
How long would it take for the same thing here to happen here when it becomes public knowledge that we as anglers want to start culling Otters
Perhaps we as Anglers we should go down the same path as the game keepers and take the law in to our own hands as some people have suggested .
Joe I am and always have been aware of the actions of keepers, it has always gone on it will continue to go on, to think that it wont is very naïve,
I don't think petitions have much impact overall, yes a few will get publicity but on the whole not something that would bother me. I don't care what the public think, most haven't a clue about otters and the problems they have/are causing, I don't see them up in arms about the ruining of our rivers, they only know and believe what they are told.
As for your last sentence, I couldn't possibly comment, but will say the bait needs to be better presented
Nathan Walter
Senior Member
I don't think you need to worry too much about a private forum's views being hacked by the save the otter brigade. Here is an interesting article in the Telegraph from 5 years ago. Can't get much more public than that.
Anglers call for cull of otters over fish havoc
Anglers call for cull of otters over fish havoc
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