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Brazen Otter

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Some good / logical thinking there Graham but I would be very suprised if any of these actions would be sanctioned by government for the simple reason that it is not a vote winner . Allying your party / government to the policy of '' controlling '' lovely cuddly otters would be political suicide . So , one might say, why have the conservatives gone with the Badger cull ? Well in my view , and putting aside the scientific TB spreading evidence , the farming lobby is very powerful , farming is a multi billion pound industry , votes and money talk ... There is also the fact that that Kate Humble is not doing a lot of primetime programmes about poor old Brock , and let's face it he is not as cuddly as an otter , not that I would like to cuddle an otter with their pointy sharp teeth and bad attitude ..Compared to the big shout of the farming lobby , we anglers are no more than a whisper in a gale , we are not , despite our numbers a united lobby , our pastime in ethical / cruely terms is contradictory to say the least . Yes , people will quietly go about controlling otters , however no amount of huff and puff on here , or anywhere else is going to make the slighest difference in terms of gaining public or political sympathy , otter clubbing , shooting , controlling , call it what you like, will never gain us any allies
 
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Nick Anderson said:
I'd definitely go down the neutering road. Your ideas are all well and good. But who's going to pay for it all.
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Oh dear Nick, I would never have guessed that you would have come back with that.

How about those that were part of creating the problem, such as NE and the EA? or how about those groups that are so passionate about seeing otters thrive at the expense of our rivers fish stocks, remember when the wild fish have all gone otters will starve, as I said to many of one always results in not enough of another.

So Nick who do you think would/should pay and having used the age old tactic of reversing the question have you any other ideas that would help put this right. I have but wont be posting them until others come up with their own.
 
whos going to pay for it. certainly not the the cause of the problem thats for sure, remember the devastation left by cormorants being protected by law,
the still and running waters still havent recovered from the black onslaught even though fisheries are beginning to control them 10 years too late!
what do you think would happen if there was a mass epidemic of rabies amongst foxes, forget the hunting bill or protection if any, the things would be shot on sight because they would be a danger to another species. US!
away with any sentiment, a long expensive program of both time and money has been used to build up our fisheries so why do a lot of us just stand by fiddling while rome burns, dont throw more wood on the fire use fire deterrent and stop it.
 
Mike Hodgkiss said:
Some good / logical thinking there Graham but I would be very suprised if any of these actions would be sanctioned by government for the simple reason that it is not a vote winner . Allying your party / government to the policy of '' controlling '' lovely cuddly otters would be political suicide . So , one might say, why have the conservatives gone with the Badger cull ? Well in my view , and putting aside the scientific TB spreading evidence , the farming lobby is very powerful , farming is a multi billion pound industry , votes and money talk ... There is also the fact that that Kate Humble is not doing a lot of primetime programmes about poor old Brock , and let's face it he is not as cuddly as an otter , not that I would like to cuddle one with their pointy sharp teeth and bad attitude ..Compared to the big shout of the farming lobby , we anglers are no more than a whisper in a gale , we are not , despite our numbers a united lobby , our pastime in ethical / cruely terms is contradictory to say the least . Yes , people will quietly go about controlling otters , however no amount of huff and puff on here , or anywhere else is going to make the slighest difference in terms of gaining public or political sympathy , otter clubbing , shooting , controlloing , call it what you like will never gain us any allies
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The cull was a waste of time, it just left more room and food for the ones left, in the wild more food equates to a bigger number of young surviving, the government went along with it because of ( as you said ) pressure from the NFU there is no positive proof that cattle catch Bovine TB from badgers, only that badgers can carry it.

I much prefer badgers to otters when it comes to looks, when I lived in the countryside I used to feed them, I have sat within 5 feet of them while they fed and as long as I did not move they took no notice but I am sure they were aware of me being there. even had foxes feeding alongside them.

You are correct that any action would not be sanctioned by government, I put forward what I would do if I could to try to redress the situation that exists, no matter what the AT tells us our voice is as you say a whisper and those that shout loudest and all that.

This is just a fishing forum, not going to change the world but its nice to be able to debate what is a big problem for some rivers.
 
The neutering idea is a good one, but there will be those who think that a healthy population would amount to otters gambolling every ten yards or so of the river bank. I don't find otters an attractive animal in the least bit. The problem lies with the romanticised image in a children's book which has given otters a human persona and hence can be related to by the general population. I have no doubt that a similar job could be done on Cormy the Cormorant. "During the day, Cormy loved to swim in the peaceful lakes and rivers. Just before bedtime Cormy and his friends would meet up and have a good natter over a hot cup of chocolate." Why, I feel a story coming.... I have said this before, but there were days when grey squirrels were perceived as cute. But not anymore. So what happened? Wait until you capture a situation where an otter has a sygnet in its mouth. Stick that on Naturewatch and let the do-gooders drool over that one. I suspect that a few clips of that nature will have more impact than any lobbying.
 
Good post Jim, the people involved with otters even now are not satisfied, the IOSF (international otter survival fund) reckon that numbers of the eurasian otter in the uk have "only slightly increased, only slightly increased? they are now in every county in the country, estimates of otter numbers in the uk are currently at around 10500, how many part eaten fish does that equate to every day?
 
Jim Foxall said:
The neutering idea is a good one, but there will be those who think that a healthy population would amount to otters gambolling every ten yards or so of the river bank. I don't find otters an attractive animal in the least bit. The problem lies with the romanticised image in a children's book which has given otters a human persona and hence can be related to by the general population. I have no doubt that a similar job could be done on Cormy the Cormorant. "During the day, Cormy loved to swim in the peaceful lakes and rivers. Just before bedtime Cormy and his friends would meet up and have a good natter over a hot cup of chocolate." Why, I feel a story coming.... I have said this before, but there were days when grey squirrels were perceived as cute. But not anymore. So what happened? Wait until you capture a situation where an otter has a sygnet in its mouth. Stick that on Naturewatch and let the do-gooders drool over that one. I suspect that a few clips of that nature will have more impact than any lobbying.
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Good points there Jim. I do think that with technology on our side we could accelerate this process of turning the general public against the otter. For example, why not just take footage of a village Post Office being held up by psychotic drug fuelled stamp liberator and superimpose the head of an otter (onto the head of the actual crim I mean). What about pictures of mouldy meth heads-same approach. Even bankers enjoying champagne, fine food and the company of half naked woman-same approach. One step further would be to post pictures of the North Korean army on parade, again, all of them otters. Actually that's more believable, because who knows what crazy experiments they might get up to and surely if they chose the otter as a sort of figure head, a symbol of their souls, then what does it say about otters?

We should have the upper hand and something of a head start here as otters don't, to my knowledge, have access to computers or even if they did, a stable internet connection. Plus their paws are useless for typing so any defensive literature they tried to produce would just be rubbish. However, as soon as we see pictures of AA men (with otter heads) assisting bedraggled road side families or school children (with otter heads) helping elderly people across a busy street then we will need to up the stakes.

I think it's this sort of imaginative approach that could work. It may not be perfect but it is a start.

But what might help much more than all of that, is having a single voice, being represented, having real data, not suggesting unlawful culls, and presenting a case that is based more on the need to help create balance (something disturbed perhaps by the release of otters without fully considering the impact) and perhaps even looking at another angle, the impact of having otters released into areas that can not sustain them for the long term. Whatever the approach it won't be successful without being politically astute.
 
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Thanks, Graham. But as a group, we have to get a lot smarter. Emotive stuff like culling otters because they eat our fish won't work. What needs to be done is to turn the tide of public opinion. Then and only then will control be a possibility. Just imagine the uproar that would ensue to see an otter with a sygnet in its mouth and the cygnet's distraught parents looking on. Get that published in a tabloid and light blue touch paper. Add to this a caption, the desperation that otters have to go to and it's all down to the do-gooders meddling in the eco-system releasing uncontrolled numbers. Not the otters fault, which is true. So what can be done? A degree of control might just then be acceptable. As a group, we are on the river banks a lot. Make sure that you have a camera with you.
 
This thread is classic closed season, fact is, nothing is going to go ahead but it's entertaining nerveless.
Maybe more need to get a salmon licence and catch a few barbel, By mistake of course..lol
 
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Thankfully, once we've dealt with the Otters and Cormorants all we need to worry about is over abstraction, pollution, water quality, dredging and all the problems that go with a growing human population!
 
David Hall said:
This thread is classic closed season, fact is, nothing is going to go ahead but it's entertaining nerveless.
Maybe more need to get a salmon licence and catch a few barbel, By mistake of course..lol
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As you say David nothing is going to get the go ahead .
Where will the money come from to fund it ? Would the taxpayer be expected to pay for it ? and would any goverment give the go ahead for such a scheme ?
The Badger cull in Gloucestershire and Somerset has cost millions so far ?
With all the rivers in the UK where would you start the cull ? and who would carry out the cull ? Would you need a licence/ Permit ? and what would the cost of a licence / Permit be ? and who would pay for it ?
 
Joe Fletcher said:
As you say David nothing is going to get the go ahead .
Where will the money come from to fund it ? Would the taxpayer be expected to pay for it ? and would any goverment give the go ahead for such a scheme ?
The Badger cull in Gloucestershire and Somerset has cost millions so far ?
With all the rivers in the UK where would you start the cull ? and who would carry out the cull ? Would you need a licence/ Permit ? and what would the cost of a licence / Permit be ? and who would pay for it ?
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But Joe we have a on here members with a huge mixture of dog's of all shapes and sizes, I bet we could cobble something together, of course those without dogs would have to beat.:)
 
Garry Lee said:
Thankfully, once we've dealt with the Otters and Cormorants all we need to worry about is over abstraction, pollution, water quality, dredging and all the problems that go with a growing human population!
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Yeah but nobody cares about that, too much time and hard work, the quick fix solution is to just kill otters apparently.

None of these other, bigger issues surrounding our rivers get even a fraction of the moans on forums as otters do, why is that? Even cormorants who are pretty much wiping out the smaller fish, fish which otters would normally feed on, barely get mentioned. As I've said enough times now, if we sort these problems out then otters wouldn't be an issue, but nobody is interested because it's too much like hard work and takes too long for the results to show.
But if you took the otters away we'd still, eventually, be left with the same problems on a lot of rivers. All they are doing is picking off the older, bigger fish because that's all that's left for them to eat, if otters weren't around these fish would be dying off with old age anyway, and with nothing coming through, thanks to other issues, nothing will be there to replace them, the otter is just speeding the inevitable up.
Too many people happily carrying on having bumper catches of big specimen fish from waters thinking 'wow, this is great' while ignoring the underlying problems as to why this was all they were catching, then along came the otter and finished them off and everyone is suddenly up in arms. Ok granted it wasn't a good idea releasing them in such a poor environment, but it should have at least taught us that the river environment should have a healthy balance of all life, not just the fish we want to catch. Look at the Eel, numbers dwindling for years but most people not bothered cause they're a pain in the arse, so who cares, yet these would make up a large part of the otter diet. The same happens on these carp syndicates where the 'nuisance' fish get removed and Mr otter comes in and eats their prize pigs because there's nothing else in there!
Otters have always been here in some capacity, even before they were hunted, in some rivers they never really left and had/have little impact on the fish so long as it's a well maintained system. They just strike me as scapegoat, an easy target, because it's easy just to kill them and hey presto, problem solved, the other issues being too much like hard work for most people.
 
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Joe Fletcher said:
As you say David nothing is going to get the go ahead .
Where will the money come from to fund it ? Would the taxpayer be expected to pay for it ? and would any goverment give the go ahead for such a scheme ?
The Badger cull in Gloucestershire and Somerset has cost millions so far ?
With all the rivers in the UK where would you start the cull ? and who would carry out the cull ? Would you need a licence/ Permit ? and what would the cost of a licence / Permit be ? and who would pay for it ?
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As you say David nothing is going to get the go ahead
Individual clubs and fishery owners do not need the "go ahead" from anyone; they just go ahead.

Where will the money come from to fund it?
Individual clubs and fishery owners

Would the taxpayer be expected to pay for it ?
No

and would any goverment give the go ahead for such a scheme ?
Involving Government just means that nothing will ever get done

The Badger cull in Gloucestershire and Somerset has cost millions so far ?
Annoying isn't it?

With all the rivers in the UK where would you start the cull ?
Places with an otter problem springs to mind

and who would carry out the cull ?
See above

Would you need a licence/ Permit ? and what would the cost of a licence / Permit be ? and who would pay for it
No, the "bang them on the head solution" is remarkably light on red tape"

I do not expect anyone who is under the age of 35 to agree for one minute with anything I post. However there are some of you who are old enough to remember when kids used to roam free all day long discovering the environment around them and getting into all sorts of scrapes. Nicking cigarettes, poaching fish, making soap box carts, making dens, playing with knives and guns and trespassing wherever we wanted. All or most of it illegal and dangerous.......how did we ever manage to survive? Quite simple really; we were not the obese, brain dead, risk adverse, computer slaves of today, but savvy and full of common sense.

Much of modern society is wonderful and much better than it was. But somewhere along the line we have paid a terrible price and have ended up in this sterile all conforming world we have now.

It doesn't have to be like this, even Mr Smart must have a soul deep down inside him somewhere.........time to break out and live a little......and take care of business ourselves

Steve
 
Hello Steve . I am well over 35 , and took part in all the activities you refer to as a little un plus collecting birds eggs , shooting water voles with my catapult ,setting indiscriminate snares , oh the shame .. Thankfully I have desisted from such activities which were , in the 60's normal short trousered boy activity , at least in my neck of the woods . Anyway back to the otter killing . I am sure that angling clubs do and will kill otters , however the crucial issue is they do not go crowing about it in public or on the internet , doing this only harms us anglers and threatens our pursuit . Why do they keep quiet , well 1- Their activity is illegal and could end up with them doing time if caught 2- Even if the law didn't catch them other interested parties i.e. animal rights activists would certainly pay them a visit if they found out . Don't forget the extreme end of the activists are prepared to harm and kill their fellow humans . So Otter cullers may well , to use your analogy, have a very large pair of gonads BUT , they want to keep them , so they keep quiet . :eek:
 
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Coming to a river near you.....

otterpolice_zps77811a1e.jpg~original


Jason:)
 
as i said before if they were a threat to humans the law would rapidly change to allow killing them,
in answer to an earlier post about badgers not passing tb on to cattle....... you are definately wrong they are a threat to cattle because they do carry tb no doubt about it, tb was virtually wiped out in humans in the uk but badgers are increasingly endangering this, farmers have been killing them for years and years
where do you think all the dead badgers laying in the roads come from, especially in the west country where milk herds are prolific, this is the reason for allowing the culling and maybe turning a blind eye to the reduction in numbers
 
John Walker said:
as i said before if they were a threat to humans the law would rapidly change to allow killing them,
in answer to an earlier post about badgers not passing tb on to cattle....... you are definately wrong they are a threat to cattle because they do carry tb no doubt about it, tb was virtually wiped out in humans in the uk but badgers are increasingly endangering this, farmers have been killing them for years and years
where do you think all the dead badgers laying in the roads come from, especially in the west country where milk herds are prolific, this is the reason for allowing the culling and maybe turning a blind eye to the reduction in numbers
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Errr road traffic strikes are more likely to be the guilty party for that. Not to say the easiest way for a person to get rid of a carcass is to place it in the road.
 
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