Barbel boiled baits back when?

[Jeremy Evans]

Darren, the problem with enzymes is that they are so volatile and getting them to do what you want of them in a bait can be very difficult when boiling etc. Just reading about them did my head in lol.
Like Chris i now use two ready made frozen baits that are of a make up that works for me and is very similar to what i would make myself when tweaked slightly by the maker. One is a fishmeal based bait and one is a milk based bait. I nowadays cant be arsed with making my own baits when there are so many good baits available to us off the shelf.
Another point is the amount of money used for research etc by bait companies, i feel that not many are coming out with anything different as in these hard times they haven't got the budgets to do the research and still keep there baits at a price where they can sell them to us punters.
It makes me laugh when anglers go on about the humble SIMPLE trout pellet when in truth it is a quality product that has had millions spent on it over the years by huge companies which are far larger than any bait company out there.
Here's another thought for you, maggots are great fish catchers but many look upon them as an inferior bait to a good HNV with very little nutritional benefit but their is one big difference and that is they are alive. Now no matter how complicated a bait is we have never been able to create life and the inherrant attractiveness that comes with it. Perhaps we need to look at natural baits a little more when searching for the ultimate bait (if such a thing exists).

 

[Steve Pope]

Hi Darren,

My mantra with regard to all of this type of thing is that thinking is good, nay it is essential. Too much thinking, not so good, headaches almost always ensue!

A barbel is a simple creature, we sometimes credit it with powers way beyond its capability, usually when we have more time to think than fish!

Steve.

 

[Darren George]

Hiya Steve, how are you doing?

Believe it or not I do actually agree with you...

I enjoy discussing the various theories out there, but don't necessarily subscribe to them..

I think I'll give it a rest now for fear of disappearing up my own orifice

 

[Jeremy Evans]

It will do your head in lol. I just go fishing now with a bait i know works for me.

 

[Ian Grant]

It will do your head in lol. I just go fishing now with a bait i know works for me.

It's just an offshoot that some - like me get enjoyment from, i find the subject interesting, so it's not a chore, and doesn't do my head in ... LOL,

I once tried to get a mate into fishing, he hated it, and reckoned i needed my head seeing to, he's into his Golf, and i've got the same opinion of that !

As with everything, if it's not for you leave it alone, or it will do your head in

Ian.

 

[Mike Wilson]

Some of you guys making your own baits but not boiling them [as they denature] may wish to consider adding a small quantity of the enzyme Amylase to them. It has the effect of hydrolyzing [breaking down] the carbohydrates [starch etc] into sugar [and glucose]. Seemed to work very well for me way back in the past for carp especially in winter. Why, I'm not sure.
It is obtainable from shops that sell home brew kits. You may also wish to consider yeasts which also had a devastating affect on some waters. Again, small quantities. Keep very cold and discard unused bait after 48 hours.
I see no reason why it would not work for barbel.

Mike

 

[Jeremy Evans]

It's just an offshoot that some - like me get enjoyment from, i find the subject interesting, so it's not a chore, and doesn't do my head in ... LOL,

I once tried to get a mate into fishing, he hated it, and reckoned i needed my head seeing to, he's into his Golf, and i've got the same opinion of that !

As with everything, if it's not for you leave it alone, or it will do your head in

Ian.

Dont worry Ian it did my head in years ago lol. Spent years tinkering with various bits and bobs and did enjoy it but now i would rather spend my time fishing and not bait making. Still do take an interest in baits though and i guess i always will.

 

[Simon Lush]

For me, now as in the 80's i find that once we reach the Amino acid/ Enzyme stage i start to think that really we are/were just chasing the unobtainable ! there are just too many variables, P.H. etc and further theorising, like much of the writings at that time were just unrealistic pseudo science IMO, if anyone out there really does have a true understanding beyond this point i have yet to meet him Ian ?

Jeremy, backtracking to your thoughts on Trout pellets, you are 100% correct in saying that they are very sophisticated nutritionally, the only caviat being that they by nature of their targeted market are produced to an acceptable price point so as to generate a healthy profit for the manufacturers, much as some of the top bait company's probably do

 

[Colin Gordon]

Ultimately there has been much research performed both here and even more so overseas as to the nutritional requirements of trout, salmon, carp and even halibut but what is really known of the needs of a barbel, either to sustain them, let alone for the fish to thrive.

Basically if more were known it should effectively be possible to walk onto a heavily fished stretch of river, you know the ones, absolutely pelleted to death with trout and/or halibut pellets and just find a bait to fill the inevitable short fall in the fishes nutritional needs.
Of course this wouldn't guarantee success but it certainly would help, I guess in essence this is what Ian Grant (amongst others) is attempting to do (successfully I believe) with his bait approach.
Guess its just a shame that no one really knows that much about barbel's unique requirements and what potential harm maybe inflicted on them on these heavily fished stretches where baits designed for other species are bucketed in.

 

[Ian Grant]

LOL ... Don't look at me Simon !!!!

What i've done, and still do although nowhere near as much these days, is read published papers on the subject of fish nutrition, digestion, etc, but most of it was, is, and always will be way over my head, still it's possible to read these things, and glean the essential info from them, enough to give me a very basic understanding of the subject, that i can then apply to formulating a base mix, over time i suppose some of it actually sinks in, but going beyond that into the verrrrry deeeeep complexities of the subject, i think is not neccesary, would bore me to tears, and something i could never apply myself to from lack of interest, the very reason i was **** at complex math at school.

There is one writer, a carp fisherman who it would seem has delved into these realms, and published his thoughts in an internet article ( he's done a few i think ) by the time i'd got a third of the way through, i was bored to tears with what seemed to me to be idiosycratic ramblings, that i could make no sense of, and i got the impression neither did he ! and that is from someone who - if i blow my own trumpet ) does have a basic understanding of the subject.
There is one writer however - if you google Mark Mckenna who talks to my mind a great deal of sense, written in language that you or i can understand, and who makes his writing a damn good read., maybe thats because i agree and identify with most of what he has written on the subject, so maybe i'm biased compared to my opinion of the other guy.

Ian

 

[Ian Grant]

Hi Colin,
i agree with you, what harm may be done to Barbel - and other fish - where this sort of feed is 'bucketed in', that may also as previously discussed apply to many bait feeds including boilies in their various types, can only be guessed at, and it would be nice if it were possible to have some proper research done that could give us an informed opinion based on proper reasearch, however i know from reading research material they generally alway kill their subject fish, but perhaps Calverton would be able to solve that problem. I can't see the EA diverting funds to the reaserch though, and there is no other organisation within the angling trade, who would have or wish to allocate the funds either. CC MOORE is about the only one who could afford it, and i couldn't see them wanting to get into that sort of reasearch.

I can tell you, i suspect you already know, it's hellish hard weaning Barbel, off pellets where they are being used in massive quantities, the reason i believe is that litteraly with so many items of food on the river bed they haven't got to move more than a few feet to find a few mouthfuls, and fill themselves back up again, and if it's with pellets that have only recently entered the water, and of a type that has a slow breakdown, it can be i believe even days before that fish feels the need to eat again, then having been educated into realising that the stuff is absolutly everywhere, it knows it only needs to move a few feet to find another pile, that again it can eat just a small amount and fill itself up again, and in doing so satisfy it's hunger.

There is where i believe that there is a possibility of potential damage if there is any, because the fish is eating relativly small amounts of food that take a very long time to digest, mostly because of the texture being very hard as well as the make up of the pellet itself.

Still something draws them into eating it time after time, and i believe it's quite simply ( on some waters at least ) where huge ammounts are being piled in, the convenience factor, it's just too easy for them to turn their heads and pick up a few mouthfuls.

However i can't believe that in a natural river enviroment that a Barbel will eat these thing to the exclusion of all else including it's natural food, so i think, the deficiencies in the nutrition availble from pellet will be offset by that, and i doubt that we would see the problems that have occurred on overstocked stillwaters where the fish are forced to eat nutrionaly deficient anglers bait, there being very little and in extreme cases nothing left in the way of natural food.

Certainly it seems to me ( maybe others will disagree ) that this sort of baiting with pellets seems to go on where there are carp lakes nearby, that most definatly seems to to the case with a stretch upstream of a venue i fish a lot, and i've just been talking to a syndicate member of that stretch where exactly what i've described is going on.

On the plus side, and i think it's got more to do with the pellet boys just pulling off than weaning the barbel away from the stuff, is that once they are off of it, they don't seem to want it at all, 2 venues i fish, one where once again meat is very much the bait most anglers choose, i promise you you'll struggle badly on pellet, compared to the results of others

Ian.

 

[Paul Boote]

As I intimated earlier - Full Circle.

We treated them to our whizzo commercial carp baits, circular, cylindrical and variations of both, got their consumer interest, even brief devotion, now they're just getting on with just trying to make a living and being wild, er, fish.

 

[Darren George]

"Still something draws them into eating it time after time, and i believe it's quite simply ( on some waters at least ) where huge ammounts are being piled in, the convenience factor, it's just too easy for them to turn their heads and pick up a few mouthfuls. "

Reward > effort

Good enough is quite literally good enough..

Also suggests that fish cannot tell what is bad for them in the long term. If that were the case one could only assume that the reverse is true - they cannot tell what is good for them either.

Just playing devils advocate of course..

 

[Ian Grant]

Here's another thought for you, maggots are great fish catchers but many look upon them as an inferior bait to a good HNV with very little nutritional benefit but their is one big difference and that is they are alive. Now no matter how complicated a bait is we have never been able to create life and the inherrant attractiveness that comes with it. Perhaps we need to look at natural baits a little more when searching for the ultimate bait (if such a thing exists).

It's a good job i've got BFW to amuse me when it's peeing down

Anyway .... Jeremy, IMO if you want an arm aching fun day Barbel fishing, there is no other bait that comes close to maggots, as long as you know the Barbel are there you've got to do something badly wrong not to catch them, they become fixated on them and gorge themselves, one session i had, i took 3 doubles, and 3 singles in an afternoon, all of them were squitting maggot skins all over my mat, but you have to know the fish are there or it's an expensive blank, as opposed to drawing fish in to an area over time by pre baiting.

But definatley not an inferior bait IMO, but extremly costly to use in the manner i fish for the bigger stamp of fish, and to try baiting with small amounts would only see the resident minnows and small stuff hoover them up, before they had the desired effect of drawing Barbel.

On a one off days fishing though it's those little fish that eventually draw in the Barbel, as any close by wont ingnore the feeding frenzy going on, though a little trick i use just in case there aren't any close enough to see or detect it, is to pour a drop of cod liver oil into a separate tub then put in a few handful of maggots, you then fill a feeder with the maggots, and the leak off
will carry a fair way downstream, most Barbel will investigate if they get a whiff i always hair rig the maggots using a size 14 tied to the hair on a or 6, and cram the hook with maggots if you are patient you can get up to 25 on the 14, but i usually settle for about 20. this has two advantages the , small stuff hasn't got a hope of getting the bunch in their mouth, rarely will you ever find even one maggot sucked, the other plus and i've no idea why, is that Chub appear not to like the large bunch of maggots, in all the years i've used this method i've only ever hooked one chub.

Ian.

 

[Paul Boote]

Maggitz.

What a shame that old-style, circular, very fine, all-steel sewing needles, as once made by Milward's and by Bartleet of Redditch, appear to be no longer made - http://www.google.co.uk/images?hl=e...=0&aqi=g1g-m1&aql=&oq=circular+needl&gs_rfai=

Thread a mass of maggitz onto fine white cotton or the finest habadasher's shop mono (sold as "Invisible Thread"), tie the lot onto a strong, short-shank hook, and "Bingo!"...

PS - Sure that operating-theatre surgeons must still use similar...

 

[Simon Lush]

Don't need to Google McKenna Ian, i lined his loft out to store all the sacks of bait ingredients he had delivered when he set up Rekord angling the trouble he went to to source some of that stuff was a real eye opener He now produces one of the better baits available today under his new company Baitcraft. Top bloke Mark.

 

[Simon Lush]

It's a good job i've got BFW to amuse me when it's peeing down

Anyway .... Jeremy, IMO if you want an arm aching fun day Barbel fishing, there is no other bait that comes close to maggots, as long as you know the Barbel are there you've got to do something badly wrong not to catch them, they become fixated on them and gorge themselves, one session i had, i took 3 doubles, and 3 singles in an afternoon, all of them were squitting maggot skins all over my mat, but you have to know the fish are there or it's an expensive blank, as opposed to drawing fish in to an area over time by pre baiting.

But definatley not an inferior bait IMO, but extremly costly to use in the manner i fish for the bigger stamp of fish, and to try baiting with small amounts would only see the resident minnows and small stuff hoover them up, before they had the desired effect of drawing Barbel.

On a one off days fishing though it's those little fish that eventually draw in the Barbel, as any close by wont ingnore the feeding frenzy going on, though a little trick i use just in case there aren't any close enough to see or detect it, is to pour a drop of cod liver oil into a separate tub then put in a few handful of maggots, you then fill a feeder with the maggots, and the leak off
will carry a fair way downstream, most Barbel will investigate if they get a whiff i always hair rig the maggots using a size 14 tied to the hair on a or 6, and cram the hook with maggots if you are patient you can get up to 25 on the 14, but i usually settle for about 20. this has two advantages the , small stuff hasn't got a hope of getting the bunch in their mouth, rarely will you ever find even one maggot sucked, the other plus and i've no idea why, is that Chub appear not to like the large bunch of maggots, in all the years i've used this method i've only ever hooked one chub.

Ian.

Yep, big bunch of maggots on a 6/8 standard Chub avoidance tactics back in the Cherwell heyday barbel just hoover the lot up though if you've got them properly 'Interested'
Gallon a day of both Hemp and maggots was the norm, but sometimes just one dropper of each would do

 

[Ian Grant]

"Still something draws them into eating it time after time, and i believe it's quite simply ( on some waters at least ) where huge ammounts are being piled in, the convenience factor, it's just too easy for them to turn their heads and pick up a few mouthfuls. "

Reward > effort

Good enough is quite literally good enough..

Also suggests that fish cannot tell what is bad for them in the long term. If that were the case one could only assume that the reverse is true - they cannot tell what is good for them either.

Just playing devils advocate of course..

Reward > effort

Good enough is quite literally good enough..


Yes you're quite right Darren, they will eat them, but i firmly believe that a better quality bait will out score them every time, where both types are being applied in sensible amounts. In the context we are speaking of here though is where Colin was expressing his concern that where they are being piled in they could be damaging the fish.
In my reply i said that with such massive quantities, and all the more so because of the sheer numbers of items of food, when they don't hardly have to do an about turn to find food, it just becomes too easy for them to take a few mouthfulls and fill themselves up, repeating that process time after time, when there are always large amounts present on the river bed.
Overcoming that senario with sensible baiting is difficult and probably even more so when the same is being done with boillies, there are just some people out there who haven't got *^%& for brains !

In fact it is their small size, and relative cheapness, which i believe is the root of the problem, and why they get abused in this way.

There is in fact no scientific proof that fishmeal pellets per se are bad for fish, i believe it's the convenience factor that over rides their natural instinct, and where - as can happen in a stillwater enviroment they may get very little else, i believe there may be some substance in the theory that they are detrimental to the fishes health.

But still you are correct they will eat them, but i'm convinced, they become a very mediocre bait when the fish have a choice of something far better.

Ian.

 

[Joe Fletcher]

Hi guys having read all of your different comments and opinions on this subject and me like alot of people learn from other peoples experience . Reading books magizines articales and seeking information of web sites .
I know we all have our opinions and their seems to be a lot of different conflicting opionions as to what is a right way and a wrong way as reguards to pellets . I know that this thread is about boilies and it seems their is conflict between boilie users and pellet users as to the amount of pellets being discharged in to a given swim . I dont know if any one has been on the Bob Roberts website [URL="http://www.bobrobertsonline.co.uk . Their is an article he writes callled Effective Barbel Rigs Part two and in it he states and I quote '' Most barbel anglers do not introduce enough feed '' and on a dvd called Barbel Days & Ways . Which I have not seen and it shows how quickly
in a short space of time pellets turn to mush and every thing in the swim including minnows eats what is left and how the wafting of a fishes fins lift the pellets of the the bottom to be swept away . Even Phil Smith after watching the film commented that he would change the way he feeds .
So guys you see my problem . I am a little confused :confused:

 

[Ian Grant]

There are pellets and there are Pellets Joe, these days the variety is enormous, but in the vein of this thread, as kicked off by Colin Gordon, expessing his concern about Trout Pellets, Halibut Pellets, etc the concern is for the type that were originally used in Carp, and then Barbel fishing, but for other species too, were of the variety first developed for the animal feed industry, and then shortly after i believe adapted for use in Salmon and Trout farming, these are still hugely popular because of their cheapness, though there are now many more types of pellet available to the angler, not just fishmeal, which are far more digestion friendly than the original trout and halibut type, and most of these new types are of a far faster breakdown i suppose it was an oversight not to mention the distinction between the two, i knew what he was refering to, but i should have made the distinction between the old and new type in my answer.
Still those old types are still being used because of their relative cheapness compared to the newer products being marketed specifically for coarse anglers.

I could probably buy 25Kgs of Halibuts produced by a company like Skerrit, who produce them for the animal feed industry, for perhaps a 1/5th of the cost of some of the newer products available from bait stockists. They are cheaper than the like weight of most ready made boillies, but still applied in quantity would prove quite costly in the amounts some of these idiots want to apply them, so many still go for the cheaper option of fishmeal pellets produced for animal feed.

My guess is that Bob Roberts was using a type specifically designed for coarse fishing, with a faster breakdown, but you'd have to ask him that question as i really dont know what type he used.

Ian.