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Barbel boiled baits back when?

A little story for you :) Back in my 20's due to illness i was put on a starvation regime, a week with no food/drink, nothing ! just a fluid drip (potassium/saline if i remember correctly), the cravings i had that week were unbelievable, macaroni cheese, which i hate, crisps, dreaming of waterfalls the lot ! i was in a mess :rolleyes: Anyway, when it finally finished i had promised myself a proper Steak and a pint, but guess what, i just couldn't eat it and i mean couldn't, i couldn't even bear it in my mouth, i lived for around two weeks on packets of crisps and coca cola, i would wake in the night and have packets and cans of each, when i talked about this to my consultant he told me to just "go with it" it was my body taking care of itself and filling in all the deficencies (tricky :D ) mainly salts and sugars i.e. inate behavoir overriding its human conditioning, much like women in pregnancy i guess.
Hope i've explained that clearly because it is important.
Anyway, that was Freds thinking, by making up a foodsource with a good nutritional profile then you invariably offer them a substance that they need or are maybe deficient in, maybe even crave ?
Apologies to Fred if thats incorrect,but i think thats the gist of it ;)
 
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So... High protien, or balanced?

Balanced for me, but as mentioned earlier, I've not used HP. Yet.

As for what I think, well, I think barbel will tap into an available food source. Whether that is because of nutritional recognition, or just opportunity, I'm uncertain. At the mo I think as long as the food contains sufficient energy to reduce hunger, they will continue to eat it.

I have read that certain substances do have addictive properties, such as alkaloid present in hemp seed. Whether that would effect barbel I don't know..
 
Them old hemp and addiction yarns will go on forever.... after all, they say it is cannabis!.... Well yes it is cannibis, but it aint the same species as is smoked but is the species that is used to make rope. You could smoke a shed full of it and not get stoned! Hemp is a great particle bait but it don't do the fish much good as they loose weight eating it..... This is where many bait nutrition theories can fall apart!

Re hi-pro baits, personally I think newer high-nutritional bait theories have more mileage, particularly if the bait is easily digested. However, Fred was also putting vitamins and minerals and sometimes even oil in his baits way back in the early 80's. As for flavors, well they really are just labels but there is no doubt some flavors work better than others... and, as flavors will carry in running water we can use this to our advantage when after barbel. In which case, if we want our bait to stand apart from what others are using, it will pay to use something that smells 'different' and works as our own baits individual label.... I am less sure about flavor levels but it makes no sense to overdo it.

Personally what I want from my boilies is to tic the boxes of being nutritional, digestible and different, as I do believe that fish, by whatever means, know whats good for them if they do well eating it and I want them to be able to easily recognise it when they find it again. Pellets work extremely well from the perspective of being a nutritional offering and also work well by virtue of being a first-class particle bait as well. The only real problem with pellets, in the summer at least, is that everybody is using them, so while the fish want them they can become very spooky about them.... and this can work against you if you're after the bigger fish.

Once you have those big fish regularly eating your (individual and different) nutritional, digestible and tasty smelling boilies, however, you will gradually win them over to the point that they will loose the plot over them. It will still require various strategies to get the best out of your baits but you will have an open playing field rather than trying to overcome all of the problems associated with doing the same as everyone else is doing!

I hope that makes sense?
 
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Although I have limited knowledge of this subject, I do know that Fred and co were testing boilies out on the Medway in those early days. So it would seem that they were being tried out on both running and still waters.
 
Darren George said:
Fish losing weight on hempseed surprises me, being something like 30% oil among other things.


Interesting stuff, thanks
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In fact most fish lose weight after being caught. I do remember when Simon was pioneering the Cherwell back when God was a boy, that his recaptures were consistently losing weight which, as I recall, we put down to him using lots of hemp to locate and hold the fish. Simon will be better qualified to shine light on this than me though, as I've not used hemp for babel for many years, except on the Trent where, so far, recaptures have not been evident as I've not spent enough time there.
 
One further point that I hesitated to mention, because sometimes folk read things into what is said, and take offence.I will tell you MY reason for using expensive, high quality, ballanced nutrition boilies (when I am using boilies that is) What I am NOT doing is telling you what you should do!

Over the years in carp fishing, bait 'fads' have come and gone, and a lot of damage has been done to fish and other critters by the use of unsuitable or incorrectly prepared 'food' products during that time...and I mean a LOT of damage. Sadly, I feel barbel fishing followed along with certain of those trends.

Fortunately, most of the major bait manufacturers now use reasonable quality ingredients, and on the whole produce acceptable baits with at least a half decent nutritional profile, freezer baits in particular...this generally being accepted as at least part of the reason for the unprecedented growth rates of most species of fish over the last ten years or so. Equally fortunately, the oil slicks that used to cover the surface of certain lakes (seemingly almost on a par with the recent BP disaster at times :p) are now consigned to the past :rolleyes:

However, it is still not quite as rosy as it seems...there is still a lot of crud out there. So...and I repeat, this is just MY perhaps quirky take on things...I want any bait that I am going to feed in large quantities...any bait which I am going to do my level best to persuade fish to accept as a sustantial percentage of their diet for a lengthy period of time...to be a healthy, nutritionally correct, ballanced diet....and quality doesn't come cheap.

I am pretty sure that I will catch more fish doing that, and as a double whammy, I feel happy in myself that I am giving them a little bit back. I know I could do it cheaper...but for my own peace of mind, I don't consider that to be better. That is my genuine feelings on the issue, but others undoubtedly will not agree...so be it.

Cheers, Dave.
 
Dave I don't think anyone could take offence.

I do have a question which I feel is due to a misunderstanding on my part though.

You say quality doesn't come cheap, and that you prefer a balanced bait in the situation you describe. Does 'balanced' in your context refer to including carbohydrate to balance out the protien?

The reason I ask is because carb sources are relatively cheap, so wonder if I have misunderstood..

Forgive me if my questions are a little too nosey..
 
Hi Darren,

I am NO bait buff, absolutely not, and I am sorry if I gave you that impression. The baits I started out making in the 60's were crude and rudimentary stuff, mainly pet food pastes and the like. Later, when boilies became the vogue, I still used to make my own bait, but from base mixes formulated and mixed by people with vast knowledge of the subject, and I now have it made for me by one or other of the same people. Living in the Colne valley, and with Kent just a short trip round the M25, I am surrounded by some of the best.

I did try to gain the knowledge required, but when you get into a discussion with these guys, especially those with a scientific grounding, it makes your head spin. I didn't take me TOO long to realise that I just was not up to it, that leaving that side of things to them was by far the best way to go :D:D

Hence why I say quality does not come cheap...other peoples knowledge + quality ingredients = dear bait :D

Cheers, Dave.
 
Hi Darren,
I remember haveing pretty much this same disscussion a couple of seasons back remember the thread ?
As i understand the nutritional requirements of fish, or more importantly Cyprinids, which mostly i've gleaned from reading published research papers on the subject, carbohydrates are used by cyprinids, they are even an essenstial part of their diet, but they utilise them in incredibly small quantities, what is not reqired for virtually immediate use is excreted.

Now this bit i don't know for a fact it's supposition, but i take that ( above ) to mean that much in the same way mammals use carbohydrates, within the fish it is broken down by enzymes which convert the carbohydrate to sugar, the only purpose for which ( i assume ) is for instant use as energy.

From all that i have read as i understand it, it is not neccesary to - balance as you put it, the diet of a fish with carbohydrate considering that they will, - unless being fed soley on an artificial diet will still eat their own natural food, they will obtain plenty enough carbohydrate from from that, thats probably true even for artificially fed pond fish.

However what they require and what appeals to them may be 2 different things, as i said in that other thread, i often include a vegatable indredient in my bait that they appear to be very attracted to, but i doubt whether as a long term food they get very much from it, and again as i remember saying in that other thread, a bait is just that a bait, which i use to attract the fish, and then catch it ! the fact that other ingredients in the bait may be highly benificial to the fish, from my point of view ( my need to catch them ) is a plus which adds to the long term appeal of the ... BAIT in order that i can keep catching them.
As Dave quite rightly pointed out, in the past much of the bait ( boillies ) being sold were bulked out with ingredients which whether were attractive to the fish or made so either by supplement by artificial means, or whether these ingredients were in themselves attractive to fish, were in fact harming them becauise of the quantities they were being used, mostly the damage was i believe from depriving the fish of the essential nutrients that they require for long term health, essentially because the baits were being used in massive quatities, and in turn the fish were feeding probably almost exclusivley on this manufactured food.
The problem i believe was most appartent on overstocked waters where the natural food had all but been eaten, leaving the fish with no choice in their diet, .... boillies or nothing !

From a point of view with Barbel fishing ( apart from stillwaters :mad::mad: )
this senario i would guess be a near impossibilty in a natural flowing water enviroment.

So in a nutshell what i'm saying is that in the context of Barbel fishing especially balancing your bait with carbohydrate is irrelavent, infact if you were to balance it properly to the proportions that were required nutrionally by the fish you would need to add it in volume not more than 5%, but if they like it ... give it to 'em :D

Ian.
 
Thanks for your comments Ian. This is an annual dilemma for me so if we have discussed in the past I'm not surprised.

Though very interesting to me, it is a slight deviation from the original subject, but i have one last query. My reason for including birdfood - carbs- is to ensure quick passage through the gut, rather than any actual energy reward (although if there is an energy hit involved, this is a welcome bonus).

Do you think this is important? In fact, having read your excellent article, I think I already know the answer...
 
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Chris Turnbull said:
In fact most fish lose weight after being caught. I do remember when Simon was pioneering the Cherwell back when God was a boy, that his recaptures were consistently losing weight which, as I recall, we put down to him using lots of hemp to locate and hold the fish. Simon will be better qualified to shine light on this than me though, as I've not used hemp for babel for many years, except on the Trent where, so far, recaptures have not been evident as I've not spent enough time there.
Click to expand...

Firstly i would like to point out that i lay no claim for single handedly pioneering the Barbel fishing on the Cherwell, far from it, there were a number of anglers local and otherwise chipping away at it which in the case of Tony,Steve Jeacock and myself resulted in a real golden period, for me some of the best and most enjoyable fishing i am ever likely to have.
Anyway, Hemp, the weight loss thing was a trend that particularly Tony and myself noticed over a number of recaptures, it was very noticeable and applied to virtually every fish that was caught a number of times,we found this odd as at the time of year Sept/Oct they really should have been on the up, over much discussion we concluded that the large quantity of Hemp being used was basically acting as a sort of laxative/roughage, it would pass through them very quickly giving very little in the way of nutrition, this may well be naive thinking but it seemed to fit the scenario. Tony, you out there ? :) Do you still think we were right?
 
Ian Grant said:
Hi Darren,
I remember haveing pretty much this same disscussion a couple of seasons back remember the thread ?
As i understand the nutritional requirements of fish, or more importantly Cyprinids, which mostly i've gleaned from reading published research papers on the subject, carbohydrates are used by cyprinids, they are even an essenstial part of their diet, but they utilise them in incredibly small quantities, what is not reqired for virtually immediate use is excreted.

Now this bit i don't know for a fact it's supposition, but i take that ( above ) to mean that much in the same way mammals use carbohydrates, within the fish it is broken down by enzymes which convert the carbohydrate to sugar, the only purpose for which ( i assume ) is for instant use as energy.

From all that i have read as i understand it, it is not neccesary to - balance as you put it, the diet of a fish with carbohydrate considering that they will, - unless being fed soley on an artificial diet will still eat their own natural food, they will obtain plenty enough carbohydrate from from that, thats probably true even for artificially fed pond fish.

However what they require and what appeals to them may be 2 different things, as i said in that other thread, i often include a vegatable indredient in my bait that they appear to be very attracted to, but i doubt whether as a long term food they get very much from it, and again as i remember saying in that other thread, a bait is just that a bait, which i use to attract the fish, and then catch it ! the fact that other ingredients in the bait may be highly benificial to the fish, from my point of view ( my need to catch them ) is a plus which adds to the long term appeal of the ... BAIT in order that i can keep catching them.
As Dave quite rightly pointed out, in the past much of the bait ( boillies ) being sold were bulked out with ingredients which whether were attractive to the fish or made so either by supplement by artificial means, or whether these ingredients were in themselves attractive to fish, were in fact harming them becauise of the quantities they were being used, mostly the damage was i believe from depriving the fish of the essential nutrients that they require for long term health, essentially because the baits were being used in massive quatities, and in turn the fish were feeding probably almost exclusivley on this manufactured food.
The problem i believe was most appartent on overstocked waters where the natural food had all but been eaten, leaving the fish with no choice in their diet, .... boillies or nothing !

From a point of view with Barbel fishing ( apart from stillwaters :mad::mad: )
this senario i would guess be a near impossibilty in a natural flowing water enviroment.

So in a nutshell what i'm saying is that in the context of Barbel fishing especially balancing your bait with carbohydrate is irrelavent, infact if you were to balance it properly to the proportions that were required nutrionally by the fish you would need to add it in volume not more than 5%, but if they like it ... give it to 'em :D

Ian.
Click to expand...

Very good post Ian, like Dave this is nearing the limit of my understanding of the subject :) so i am learning now, which is good and is making this thread well worthwhile for me personally.

Darren, The old Milk HNV's commonly included something like Full fat soya flour as a small percentage of a 10 oz mix to add fats/carbs, and as Chris said earlier,Vitamins in some form, Equivite/codlivine or similar. cutting with Birdfoods (largely seed) in any amount would i guess lower the nutritional value and defeat the object, it would however increase the attractant leakage and also as you rightly say aid in digestion which can be a good thing ! complicated innit ? :)
 
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The whole idea of using birdfoods, soya powder and semolina. etc, as I understand it, was to create an attractive and easily digestible flavor-carrying bait. While the only firm and fast rules here are probably in peoples heads, it is generally thought that while such baits have 'instant' appeal, their long-term results usually quickly drop off. In fact, some of these offerings have been successful for a long period of time with carp at least. With barbel, however, it has often been my experience that baits like this often work best when used in conjunction with pellets, which rather defeats the point of using boilies at all. On the other hand, once established, results with a good HNV tend to get progressively better over a period of time, providing sufficient pre-baiting is carried out.
 
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