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Anglers Mail - John Bailey Article

Kevin Daly said:
Howard, Evolve? from what? Nothing fundamental has changed since Isaac Walton. I know some river fishermen think Barbel a new invention but they have been about since God was mates with Lucifer and they fished the Swale at Topcliff weir together.
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OK, evolve with a very, very, small "E" and perhaps a better word would have been "learn". Learn to associate baits or rigs or whatever, with danger. I think that might be a basic component of the art of survival-albeit that not all will adapt of course. But I have never studied Darwin or Herbert Spencer that well so I realise I must be careful with my phrasing here.
 
Ian Crook said:
Could all those who know the details and outcomes of the project which Karen Twine undertook please put your hands up. The rest of you I can ignore until you understand what I am talking about.
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You know what they say Ian - you can't teach an old dog new tricks, and you can't teach a stuck in there ways moaning barbel angler anything because they already know it all! I keep hearing my local is being ottered to death which is odd because my catch rate has been steadily increasing over the last five years. Leave 'em to it mate. ;)
 
Ian Crook said:
Could all those who know the details and outcomes of the project which Karen Twine undertook please put your hands up. The rest of you I can ignore until you understand what I am talking about.
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Well....that's sorted that out to your satisfaction then Ian :D

Cheers, Dave.
 
I appreciate that there are two camps on this debate. I'm siding with the sceptics and agree pretty well what Dave Gauntlett has to say. However, we do need to see the results of the research and the evidence putting under the spotlight.

My questions.

What is the title of the thesis?

At which university was the research supervised?

I presume that it was a PH.D thesis, is this correct?
 
Hi men,

This is great news , me and Sue can go back to the 3 stretches of gin clear tap water that we used to fish . In a 18 month period we went from catching 40 - 50 fish a season to 5 - 10 . One of the private stretches has not seen an angler for a very long time , I spoke to the owner last year and he said he has not had any enquiries for over 6 years ?. One has had none since we left .

Now , they must have forgot what they learnt so bloody quick, as you can't have it both ways . I can't ask the ones we buried , but we will deff go back for a look , because it was all sight fishing , so will give her the benifit of the doubt .

Hatter
 
Ian. You missed the point of my post (as did Andrew in his rude way) why are the fish I'm catching bigger average sizes yet no small ones. I am not saying its otters. If anything its the result of the same issues as sperm reduction in adults.
 
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Graham, I don't know mate, that has always been the case for me, doubles from some swims/areas and smaller singles from others, rarely wide size range from the same swim (talking Kennet here). I would guess smaller fish might be in areas you are not fishing, certainly think that is the case on the Loddon and have had that discussion with both Ian G and yourself............. The bit we used to fish together a few years ago with lost of flow and shallower water producing mostly smaller to upper single figure fish in numbers and the stretch immediately upstream being deep and slow producing pretty much only doubles.......... Different preferences.
There have been plenty small barbel 1lb or less caught in matches on the Kennet the last few years....
 
Andrew Boyne said:
You know what they say Ian - you can't teach an old dog new tricks, and you can't teach a stuck in there ways moaning barbel angler anything because they already know it all! I keep hearing my local is being ottered to death which is odd because my catch rate has been steadily increasing over the last five years. Leave 'em to it mate. ;)
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See...I have to look at logic again here Andrew :p. Crooky has based his whole argument around the fact that barbel have suddenly learned how NOT to get caught. I assume that it was the otters that acted as tutors during their crash learning course, because the appearance of otters and the extreme transformation in the barbels ability to avoid anglers baits AND how to engage in nooky in a very private way....coincide so well.

However, what worries me the most is that your catch rate has gone up...which indicates that the barbel in your area have missed out in this educational process.

Either that, or there are no otters to act as tutors in your area...or your skills have improved. I am working on the likely answer to that one mate....give me time, I'll get there :D

Fact is Andrew, there are lies, damned lies...and statistics. Ask a doctor employed by the tobacco industry, and he will tell you that cancer is not ever caused by smoking :rolleyes: You see what I am saying mate? We all have our views on this, and rightly so...we are entitled to that. What I am saying is that when it is proved beyond doubt that all the fish are actually still there, but too busy taking part in 'Mastermind' to eat...then I will believe it. Until that time, I will think my thoughts. However...I WILL be pleased if Ian's theories are true, and will be the first to hold my hand up. Not having to worry any longer will be a great weight off my mind :D

Anyway Andrew...you keep on hauling mate. But fer gawds sake don't let those barbel spot the knot you are using...they will have those hooks off in no time if you do that :p

Only kidding Andrew...take it easy mate, life's too short and all that :D:D

Cheers, Dave.
 
If memory serves me right, I thought the project involved the VAC club ? They have a specailist day on the Ouse most seasons, and there was a talk done there think, not that I went though.

Also think VAC contributed finanacailly ? might be wrong, but not any Barbel got caught on the day as far as I know.

Think I might of read something about it in the newsletter I get from the club.

Good news if the fishing improves, but can not understand why the re-stocking of Barbel continues if the future is bright ?
 
Ian, would you mind sharing the name of this piece of research?

It would also be very helpful if you could tell me which University sponsored the said research paper.

I for one would be very interested in giving it the once over.
 
We have had a reduction of numbers on the Bristol Avon whether otters or not. It may be a coincidence that there's a rise in the otter population and a decline in the health of the barbel, but are the barbel playing hard to get on the spawning beds as well as playing hard to get with anglers? I have walked the banks of the BA for around eight years and fished it all my life I have watched countless big doubles spawning but the last two years I have seen very few doubles and I'd probably catch 7 to 12 doubles a season this year just one!
 
David Gauntlett said:
See...I have to look at logic again here Andrew :p. Crooky has based his whole argument around the fact that barbel have suddenly learned how NOT to get caught. I assume that it was the otters that acted as tutors during their crash learning course, because the appearance of otters and the extreme transformation in the barbels ability to avoid anglers baits AND how to engage in nooky in a very private way....coincide so well.

However, what worries me the most is that your catch rate has gone up...which indicates that the barbel in your area have missed out in this educational process.

Either that, or there are no otters to act as tutors in your area...or your skills have improved. I am working on the likely answer to that one mate....give me time, I'll get there :D

Fact is Andrew, there are lies, damned lies...and statistics. Ask a doctor employed by the tobacco industry, and he will tell you that cancer is not ever caused by smoking :rolleyes: You see what I am saying mate? We all have our views on this, and rightly so...we are entitled to that. What I am saying is that when it is proved beyond doubt that all the fish are actually still there, but too busy taking part in 'Mastermind' to eat...then I will believe it. Until that time, I will think my thoughts. However...I WILL be pleased if Ian's theories are true, and will be the first to hold my hand up. Not having to worry any longer will be a great weight off my mind :D

Anyway Andrew...you keep on hauling mate. But fer gawds sake don't let those barbel spot the knot you are using...they will have those hooks off in no time if you do that :p

Only kidding Andrew...take it easy mate, life's too short and all that :D:D

Cheers, Dave.
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Dave,

The otter population on my local rivers has been there a good few years now, as they were in the 40s and 50s when people were catching barbel apparently. What has changed in recent years is the number of anglers fishing these same stretches of river, that has increased at least 20 fold in the last 10 years. Those anglers have been pushing more and more unnatural food sources which any creature could associate with danger. A number of friends are still having great success on the Kennet, guess what, when it got tough they switched to fishing maggots!! Apparently fish in a river absolutely crawling with natural food seem less risk averse when natural food is used to target them.

With regards fish learning, as I have said many times on here over the last few years, I used to fish a lake for carp many years ago (this must trigger some memories in those that have been around the carp scene for some time) and I always caught a few, what ever method I tried, it was fairly easy, it was rarely fished........ then people got into carp angling, hammered it for a few years, all the fish were still there but you couldn't buy a bite........... the fish did not suddenly evolve or get clever, they just learned to survive, they learned that certain signs or tastes, etc which had caused them danger and stress by getting caught many times should be avoided. As fish are shoal creatures on the whole, new introductions were no easier to catch as they followed the others and picked up on the danger signals, spooking a good example.

Regarding spawning areas, the ones I look at every year are just as heavily populated at spawning time these days as they have been every year since I started taking an interest in 2003.

The electro fishing surveys, some of which I have witnessed in person, still show up the kind of numbers and biomass across the differing river species that you would expect, with no significant change in that time........
 
Martin Gregory said:
Ian, would you mind sharing the name of this piece of research?

It would also be very helpful if you could tell me which University sponsored the said research paper.

I for one would be very interested in giving it the once over.
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Gregory,

I have no idea, Karen presented it to us at a meeting a couple of months ago.
I will ask if it of interest.

Rgds, Ian.
 
Hi men,

Perhaps the EA will will stop stocking in their thousands ?, now they know the fish have out thought otters and men , or changed their eating habits in those area ?.

I'm off to buy up all the stock of fish trackers on EBay and make a fortune !:D

Hatter
 
Ian Crook said:
Could all those who know the details and outcomes of the project which Karen Twine undertook please put your hands up. The rest of you I can ignore until you understand what I am talking about.
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Thanks for making me laugh but remember to keep taking the tablets because they ain't kicked in yet.
 
Clive Shipman said:
We have had a reduction of numbers on the Bristol Avon whether otters or not. It may be a coincidence that there's a rise in the otter population and a decline in the health of the barbel, but are the barbel playing hard to get on the spawning beds as well as playing hard to get with anglers? I have walked the banks of the BA for around eight years and fished it all my life I have watched countless big doubles spawning but the last two years I have seen very few doubles and I'd probably catch 7 to 12 doubles a season this year just one!
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Clive, as I have said, I really have no intel on the BA, I am merely applying local experiences and generalising, apologies if this comes across as insulting, it is not intended to, I am sure there are exceptions to the rule.
 
Just to add, when the barbel started getting difficult to catch on my local rivers, loads of people started to descend on the Wye, where it had been communicated you could easily catch 30 or more barbel in a day. The hoards descended on the Wye and within three years everyone is now saying the fish have gone from there too (they haven't really, they just got harder to catch :D). I have found this another place where fishing differently to the masses you can still have fairly exceptional results.
 
Martin Gregory said:
Ian, would you mind sharing the name of this piece of research?

It would also be very helpful if you could tell me which University sponsored the said research paper.

I for one would be very interested in giving it the once over.
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Me too

What is it a Ph.D, M.Phil, MSc. etc? I don't think it's worth discussing unless we have this information and the opportunity to look over it. Unless it's a secret?
 
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